The Bathroom Debate - Who's Rights Matter Most?

[V M]

All respect understood and given. I was made to show my private parts after visiting a men's room at a dance club  If the laws that are in place now were in place then, that club would have been screwed. For some odd reason, when they finally looked at my ID, They suddenly became rather nice. Go figure. I didn't understand it either

On an odd note, I noticed that at the clubs I frequented, the ladies room would often become over crowded. Women would often rely on trustable Individuals to stand guard while they used the "mens room"

[Annwyn]

What about those transsexuals who have had SRS, maybe FFS, voice training, total hair removal, and all legal papers in order and still don't pass effectively?

Sucks for them.  If they've had SRS then sure, unless they look like this but uglier:



Then, it's up to them if they want to risk the venture.  Legally, no one can say anything.  They probably will though.

Oh yeah and girly girl, if you don't wanna post pics then that's fine.  But if you're too scared to post pics then don't go tootin on us about how pretty or passable or whatever you are.  I'd ask the same of everyone.

Now, y'all may agree or disagree, but please try to show a bit of respect for one another regardless. Ok now?

Bite me.

[V M]

Oh silly, relax a bit. You don't have to kill everyone. You're lookin' good and doing well. Why get involved in some inconsequential pissing match 

[DarkLady]

What about those transsexuals who have had SRS, maybe FFS, voice training, total hair removal, and all legal papers in order and still don't pass effectively? Should they still use the facilities of their birth gender?  Single occupancy stalls? Or go where they wish with the confidence of knowing that if they are questioned, they have the correct papers?
Maybe they should always ask where the "restroom"is and go where they are directed. Maybe they should dress androgenously and give up "passing"

Maybe any restroom laws wherever they may exist have the moral authority of Jim Crow laws of the Fifties and just need to be ignored.

This could could set me up for some people to say I'm admitting I don't pass and that is why I don't have a pic.As dick Cheney would say"so what"


Post Merge: June 22, 2009, 11:25:44 PM
I'm always chased up mountains by mobs with stones and pitchforks. That is why I have no  :icon_help:pic

Only time I got negative looks (from the oldest ladies only) from women's restroom I was post-op, my documents said female but I was too ill and tired to dress and make-up perfectly.  So in case we are logical I cannot use male restroom because of my genitalia and female restroom because of my ''birthsex''. So I feel that it is question about discrimination.

[sneakersjay]

On another forum (non-TS) someone posted a thread about transpeople, and of course the theme was negative.  In a post trying to explain how we're just regular folk, I mentioned as part of my answer that I could be standing at the urinal next to you.

Some guy got argumentative and said, "Statements like this are what makes it hard for mainstream people to accept you. It does sound as if you are trying to frighten them or just be confrontational."

Seriously.  I frighten this big biker dude (his pic) by peeing next to him?



Jay

[Shana A]

Just because a CD is out and about "Cross-dressed" doesn't give them the right to use the washroom they are presenting as.  If they are worried about having to use a washroom then they need to plan their outings better.

-={LR}=-

I'm not sure one could always tell the difference between a CD and TS. And why should it be OK for a M2F CD to risk getting beaten up if they go to the men's restroom while presenting as female? Do we all need to carry gender ID cards to use bathrooms now? 

Z

[DarkLady]

The ID is not enough. Even not SRS here where I live if asked from authorities. So the simple's solutation is that people should use the restroom of gender they presents.

[Alicia Marie]

I am a straight, hetrosexual, cisgender male.
Personally I would not care if a FtM transsexual used the men's restroom.
In a country that should assure equal rights to all living here I see no problem with them using the restroom they feel they should use.
My only concern would be in the area of little children using the restroom.
In that I would feel they should use a private stall if the child is too young to understand transsexuality for the child's sake.
It's really no big deal to me.

[DarkLady]

I think that in this thread there is too much openly racists and transphobic posts. It is pathetic that the person herself identifies as transpeople.

[tekla]

I see a lot of ->-bleeped-<-r than thou stuff, but I'm not seeing anything racist, and Americans tend to be pretty sensitive to racism as opposed to some other more homogeneous populations.

[sneakersjay]

I am a straight, hetrosexual, cisgender male.
Personally I would not care if a FtM transsexual used the men's restroom.
In a country that should assure equal rights to all living here I see no problem with them using the restroom they feel they should use.
My only concern would be in the area of little children using the restroom.
In that I would feel they should use a private stall if the child is too young to understand transsexuality for the child's sake.
It's really no big deal to me.

I have children.

If I'm using a urinal, how is that different from a cisgendered male using the urinal?  If cisgendered men don't know I'm a FTM transsexual, how will a child?  I'm not flashing my genitals in public, and neither is any other guy using a urinal.

Explain?


Jay

[Alicia Marie]

sneakersjay,

  I would assume that if you have kids they are already familiar with transsexuality. Because of this your using the restroom of your target gender may be normal.
  Now, keep in mind that I am merely attempting to bring forth a view from an unbiased straight person with very little knowledge of transsexuality.
  Let's say, hypothetically speaking that a FtM would come into a restroom where there is a little child that has never been familiarized with transsexuality.
  Let's say that this person didn't pass well.
  Even though I personally would ignore the person and let them do their thing the child may not be so understanding.
  The child might wonder why this woman is in the men's restroom. Depending on what type of household this child comes from and what kind of things his parents teach him this child could be quite scared.
  I cannot say what I would do since I am straight but I tend to think that with the mindset that I have towards going out of my way to keep from scaring a child I would use the stall instead of the urinal.
  I see that as merely a personal choice that I would make because of the convictions I hold from the upbringing I had. Nothing more; nothing less. Just my personal way to show kindness and consideration unto a child and the child's parents. Which I would hope would be appreciated by the parent enough to attempt to explain or seek out knowledge of transsexuality enough to teach that child when he asks why there was a woman in the restroom.
  But, that's just a straight guy's opinion.
  As for the original question about who's rights to honor, I would say both with each side showing consideration unto the other.

[sneakersjay]

sneakersjay,

  I would assume that if you have kids they are already familiar with transsexuality. Because of this your using the restroom of your target gender may be normal.
  Now, keep in mind that I am merely attempting to bring forth a view from an unbiased straight person with very little knowledge of transsexuality.
  Let's say, hypothetically speaking that a FtM would come into a restroom where there is a little child that has never been familiarized with transsexuality.
  Let's say that this person didn't pass well.
  Even though I personally would ignore the person and let them do their thing the child may not be so understanding.
  The child might wonder why this woman is in the men's restroom. Depending on what type of household this child comes from and what kind of things his parents teach him this child could be quite scared.
  I cannot say what I would do since I am straight but I tend to think that with the mindset that I have towards going out of my way to keep from scaring a child I would use the stall instead of the urinal.
  I see that as merely a personal choice that I would make because of the convictions I hold from the upbringing I had. Nothing more; nothing less. Just my personal way to show kindness and consideration unto a child and the child's parents. Which I would hope would be appreciated by the parent enough to attempt to explain or seek out knowledge of transsexuality enough to teach that child when he asks why there was a woman in the restroom.
  But, that's just a straight guy's opinion.
  As for the original question about who's rights to honor, I would say both with each side showing consideration unto the other.

Most transpeople refrain from using the restroom of their target gender until they pass pretty well, for this reason.

If your child asks why there is a lady in the men's room you can say one of two things, both of which may be true: either 'she made a mistake' (happens; as a woman I've seen my share of men come into the wrong room, mostly foreigners) or 'he's a boy(man).'

I didn't use the men's room until I passed far more often than not, and didn't start using urinals until well after that.  If I'm in the men's room, at the urinal, your child will not think I'm a lady.  And if someone who passes less is at the urinal, why wouldn't your child assume that person is male?  Women don't pee at urinals (usually!).  And women don't choose to use the men's room (usually!). 

And most kids aren't scared of women, in general.  I do understand your point.  But I find kids more understanding than adults; adults sometimes don't want to be in the position of having to explain something they don't understand or are uncomfortable with to a inquisitive child. 

Quick question: if you are a cisgendered straight male, why is your screen name Alicia Marie?


Jay

[Alicia Marie]

jay,

  I understand your point as well. I do know some kids that do get scared of being in bathrooms such as at stores and malls and such. It wouldn't take much to frighten them.
  I was mainly posting from the viewpoint of cutting off occasion for any possible problems before they could even start if I was transsexual. My post wasn't meant to belittle anyone or start any conflicts. I just figured that I would provide a straight cisgendered view of things. But then again, you probably seen them or heard them before.
  Now for your question.
  The reason I chose a female screen name is because when I first came here I truly thought I was a transsexual.
  Back then I was seeking out why I felt the way I did from my youth and was pretty much trying to find out where I would fit in.
  In time I came to the conclusion that I am a straight, heterosexual, cisgender male.
  The reason I continue to visit is because when I compared Susan's to the Christian sites I was on the people here seem to be the ones that make the most sense.
  I enjoy learning and enjoy seeing things from different points of view.
  I guess in reality I shouldn't even post in this section but I did feel the need to bring an opinion to find out the response for myself first hand. No he said / she said.
  Thank you for your time in supplying an answer.

[Annwyn]

The ID is not enough. Even not SRS here where I live if asked from authorities. So the simple's solutation is that people should use the restroom of gender they presents.

Get real.

Taking a side in a controversial issue does not constitute bigotry.  I take the term, "Bigot," to be highly offensive and insulting.  Try being a bit more careful with your mudslinging or things will get really ugly really fast.

[Steph]

I'm not sure one could always tell the difference between a CD and TS. And why should it be OK for a M2F CD to risk getting beaten up if they go to the men's restroom while presenting as female? Do we all need to carry gender ID cards to use bathrooms now? 

Z

And if a CD passes then all the power to them, just don't cry the blues about discrimination etc if they are discovered.  That being said I still don't abide CD's being able to legally use facilities of the gender they are dressed as.  As I said before if a CD should get "caught short" while on one of their "Outings", too bad they should plan them better.

I was involved in a washroom incident myself a few years back.  I was pre-op, RLT and had much of my documentation changed.  I was at a club and I suppose I had used the WC about twice (Can't hold my beer) My next trip I was stopped by security and denied access to the Ladies as there had been a complaint from other female patrons that I was a man and I couldn't be there.  I told him they were crazy and he asked for ID which I provided.  The security guard saw the "F" and shrugged his shoulders and told me to go right in.

Suffice it to say that Pre-ops, RLT etc. are always going to run the risk of being denied access even though they have every right to be there.  The good part is that for the most part this is only a temporary issue that usually goes away once a person is post op.  Then it doesn't matter how ugly a woman your are, you are a woman who has all the parts to prove it.

The other point is that many use the "Being attacked" in the wash room as a risk but I think that while there is always that chance a person is more likely to be embarrassed/cited/charged/chased out/laught at or what ever else, than be attacked.

-={LR}=-

[sneakersjay]

jay,

  I understand your point as well. I do know some kids that do get scared of being in bathrooms such as at stores and malls and such. It wouldn't take much to frighten them.
  I was mainly posting from the viewpoint of cutting off occasion for any possible problems before they could even start if I was transsexual. My post wasn't meant to belittle anyone or start any conflicts. I just figured that I would provide a straight cisgendered view of things. But then again, you probably seen them or heard them before.

I didn't take your post as belittling or argumentative. 

As a parent, I found my kids more curious and asked tons of questions.  I guess my kids have never been afraid of much.  I give my kids honest answers, but I know a lot of parents are uncomfortable talking about things like sex, sexuality, and even transsexualism with their kids.

 

Now for your question.
  The reason I chose a female screen name is because when I first came here I truly thought I was a transsexual.
  Back then I was seeking out why I felt the way I did from my youth and was pretty much trying to find out where I would fit in.
  In time I came to the conclusion that I am a straight, heterosexual, cisgender male.

Is that you talking or what some Christian has drilled into you?  I'm not picking on you personally, just as a former "Christian" I have issues with them and their beliefs and methods.  As a scientist, I can see how a lot of their beliefs are hogwash.   And I know how painful it is to hide your true self to be accepted by people you love and/or associate with.

  The reason I continue to visit is because when I compared Susan's to the Christian sites I was on the people here seem to be the ones that make the most sense.
  I enjoy learning and enjoy seeing things from different points of view.

You're welcome to be here, and I hope you find what you're looking for.  Be true to yourself!
 

I guess in reality I shouldn't even post in this section but I did feel the need to bring an opinion to find out the response for myself first hand. No he said / she said.
  Thank you for your time in supplying an answer.

Thanks for your perspective on the bathroom issue.  But I think people's fears are unfounded.  After all, how many women have you seen in the men's room at the urinal?


Jay

[avmorgan]

Ironic. I gave this thread a read thinking it might touch upon the situation here in Anchorage, AK where the public bathroom debate is being used to attack equal rights and protection legislation. It is the ease with which people allow themselves to be frightened beyond reason and manipulated that amazes me. There might be a legitimate cause for concern for the safety of ALL people affected by this topic, and a legitimate issue about social courtesy and manners, but no legitimate issue can be resolved in the face of panic and confusion, especially when it they are promoted by individuals for personal gain or self-interest. Society must serve the needs of all of us or else it will serve the needs of none of us. I won't blame this controversy on religious prejudice, because that's a misnomer for simple ignorance. In some cases, I'd say willful ignorance, or even stupidity.

When fear is used to dictate policy, the motive is always power. The real purpose of fear is to focus your attention on potential danger, to identify what the danger is, and to determine whether you need to stand and fight or run away. We are limited to those two options, when acting in fear, because when one is the wrong option, the other is the only possible course of action. The problems raised in this issue cannot be resolved by fighting or running away, because they are not real, immediate threats. The questions raised in this issue can only be resolved by mature, rational, responsible thought.

[Buffy]

The questions raised in this issue can only be resolved by mature, rational, responsible thought.

That just ruled out 95% of the people here then.

Buffy

[tekla]

And pretty much our political system too.