Suicide

[Lori]

I'd like to add that in death there is always hope. Why take that away from somebody with the fear of hell?

[Jessica]

Suicide often includes many selfish components.

Of course it does Beth, I never said it didn't.

I did say I felt, personally, that it was more selfish to wish someone to be in pain the rest of their life and not suicide just so you can have them around, than to non-judgementally accept their decision to end things on their own terms.

Be that as it may, LIFE often includes many selfish decisions, as well as many decisions that are selfless.

There are answers to your questions, at least, how I have answered them.  They are not perfect, but, I have factored them in.  If you can formulate those questions then you can formulate the answers to those questions as well.  Put yourself in the mindframe of who you know.  Generally speaking, what are their beliefs on the subject, how will they react?  Then try to find the best path that will cause the least amount of damage.

The same can be said for transitioning Beth.  You know what you need to do, you explain it to all of your friends and family.  You discuss it with them and you prepare them for it.  You let them know that this wasn't their fault at all and there is nothing they could have done, and nothing they can do.  This is your life, and therefore, your decision.  It should come as no suprise to anyone that knows you.  Then you do it in such a manner as to impact as few people as possible.

Just like everything in life Beth, be courteous about it.

Like I've said before, suicide done on a whim is very rarely an intelligent move.  There are far too many things that you need to think about and consider.

Jessica

[beth]

Suicide often includes many selfish components.

Of course it does Beth, I never said it didn't.

I did say I felt, personally, that it was more selfish to wish someone to be in pain the rest of their life and not suicide just so you can have them around, than to non-judgementally accept their decision to end things on their own terms.

Be that as it may, LIFE often includes many selfish decisions, as well as many decisions that are selfless.

There are answers to your questions, at least, how I have answered them.  They are not perfect, but, I have factored them in.  If you can formulate those questions then you can formulate the answers to those questions as well.  Put yourself in the mindframe of who you know.  Generally speaking, what are their beliefs on the subject, how will they react?  Then try to find the best path that will cause the least amount of damage.

The same can be said for transitioning Beth.  You know what you need to do, you explain it to all of your friends and family.  You discuss it with them and you prepare them for it.  You let them know that this wasn't their fault at all and there is nothing they could have done, and nothing they can do.  This is your life, and therefore, your decision.  It should come as no suprise to anyone that knows you.  Then you do it in such a manner as to impact as few people as possible.

Just like everything in life Beth, be courteous about it.

Like I've said before, suicide done on a whim is very rarely an intelligent move.  There are far too many things that you need to think about and consider.

Jessica

                    My comments were in no way directed to you Jessica, just to all in general who may not have thought things all the way through. This is for you: if you think being courteous and prewarning people will mitigate all the sadness and regret you are fooling yourself.

beth

[Julie Marie]

For the record I'd like to say my words were not intended to convey any absolutes.  I do believe there are those for whom ending their life is the only option.  But I feel they represent a small percentage of the people who attempt it.

There was a time when I thought I could never transition, that I'd go to my grave having never lived a moment being true to myself.  An early death seemed the best option.  For some reason I came to my senses and pursued transitioning.  It probably took me a year or more before I believed I could do it.  Even today doubts creep in.  It's a day to day struggle for me but I know it's the best thing for me.  If someone wanting to committ suicide puts all that time and thought into doing it and still wants to, then let them.

If suicide were socially acceptable maybe we'd have something in place for them that allows them to leave this life with dignity and allows their loved ones a chance to say goodbye but we aren't there yet.  Beth made a very good point in citing some of the possible scenarios where the living are left to suffer with the aftermath of the person who committed suicide, many for the rest of their lives.  If you leave that kind of mess behind expect to be called selfish or inconsiderate. 

When my kids were in grade school a 20 year old girl decided to commit suicide.  She chose to drive herself into a telephone pole.  The pole was at an intersection.  Just as she was approaching the chosen pole a family of four pulled up to the intersection and stopped at the stop sign.  Seconds later she plowed into them killing the father and his ten year old son.  The mother and 13 year old daughter were hospitalized where they later found half their family was gone.  The girl survived the suicide attempt.  My son lost a friend.  My daughter did her best to console her friend about her lost brother.  This one selfish act affected deeply an entire community.

The problem for me in promoting suicide as a viable option is it will give those in a temporary state of despair some support for taking their lives.  This is not something we should support without being crystal clear about the consequences.  Like SRS, there is no going back, so like SRS, there should be sufficient information and support available so the individual contemplating suicide makes the right choice.  It's dangerous to say suicide is okay and then walk away.   

If you want to commit suicide then do so in a manner that takes into consideration what the consequences for others will be.  I don't think that's too much to ask.

Julie

[Jessica]

if you think being courteous and prewarning people will mitigate all the sadness and regret...

I realize that; every decision has its consequences.

The problem for me in promoting suicide as a viable option is it will give those in a temporary state of despair some support for taking their lives.  This is not something we should support without being crystal clear about the consequences.  Like SRS, there is no going back, so like SRS, there should be sufficient information and support available so the individual contemplating suicide makes the right choice.  It's dangerous to say suicide is okay and then walk away.

If you want to commit suicide then do so in a manner that takes into consideration what the consequences for others will be.  I don't think that's too much to ask.

I never meant to say that it was okay without an incredible amount of thought as to the consequences of the action.  In my mind it is very similiar to transition.  You have to make sure it's the right path for you.

I wholeheartedly agree with the last posts of both of you (Julie and Beth) at this point.

Jessica

[Bob]

Kate :
I couldn't agree more ! that is why I said what I said...
In some cases not many but in some cases You do them a favor by putting them out of their misery.... in animals and in humans , there is no diference.
there is alwayse the after thought however of what if, but I think that too is human nature... we can stand by our disigons or throw them away as sand in the wind as long as you are sure at the time then you have no regrets...
But let me reiterate, Life is tinatious...in all its forms and doing something in or someone in should not be taken lightly.   we all have the ability I just prey you are all spared the problem,  as I said before ...it is a Last resort.
no one is debateing that life can be pure hell for some, to denie that would be foolish.
but who can say that even though today may well be a liveing hell for a person and that doing away with ones self is a blessing in and of itself.... that  a year from now if that person had lived that life wouldn't be a bed of roses and joy would fill their hart to the breaking point ?  ...
....
You or I cannot say we know what the future holds... therefore to take your life today for what is a "Not worth liveing state of being"  is FOOLISH,... because... a week , a year a decade in the future may well be "A life well worth liveing indeed"
....
This Is what Crosses my mind every time I must put a critter down, but You cannot tell the future, you can only go by what you know today.... its a "Dammed if you Dammed if you don't senerio".
....
  Liveing and Suffering is No way to Live, but that can and more than likely WILL CHANGE.
....
therefore Suiside is planely Foolish in that respect alone, bareing all the other pros and cons... its Not just Selfish or Cowerdly as some put it ...its planely a stupid move
because curcumstances CHANGE WITH TIME.

Yes I have been there, done that and it was planely Stupid... what can I say !

So what can you do ?  Grit your teeth and bear it and when it gets so bad that you can't bare it any longer, grit your teeth and bare it somemore ! its ALL you can do !
...So much for saged words of wisdome eh ? but that is exactly what life has tought me !
....
my coppers worth
....Again!
...
Bob.......

[Ricki]

This subject re-emerged?  I cannot say i like it but i am very interested in to hearing peoples thoughts and viewpoints on it.  I have my own and i doubt any one will change them except maybe the devine spirit herself!
Kate this is a piece of your post

who will find you with your head half blown off and at least a gallon of coagulated blood on the floor? Who made the gun, medication or whatever available, could have taken it away or neglected to know you had it? Who will have the words from your note torment themselves for years?  Who heard your torment but didn't do enough to help you? How will your action affect a policeman and tow truck driver? How about the truck driver you step in front of?

A piece so it's not fair to go too much into this but i did not attempt anything to hurt the people around me (i know you know that and we all do really) or in likelyhood try to disrupt their lives, disappearing into a mountian would forever leave someone wondering where did he go or do?  The bad reality is mess or not most people seem to seek closure?  I may be a little off on how i said that, but the same poeple who would be (my family-friends i cite here) your so called friends and family like mine were the same people who had all this love and compromise to offer and acceptance and wanted me to live so desperatly yet they cannot even say the simple statement "my son is transgenderd"-"my brother is transgendered"...(I will never forget coming out of a 1 1/2 day life support coma and my sisiter rubbing my one arm crying telling me she loves me and they love me and whatever it takes rick whatever it takes?-all these years later and her and her husband have made the lines very clear to me of what an abomination i am to them)Urks me, urks me a lot but i would never kill myself out of loath or to cause hardship or harm to others, i guess whatever way we leave this world by our own hands or natures it leaves a mark and a mess to clean-up! 
I often wondered the bloody mess i did leave and the awful scenario i presented i do not even think it made an impact anyway (which that was never the goal) cause like i said my family is in DENIAL....
But anyway great stuff and everyones opinons and feelings on this very very sensitive issue are respected by me for sure!
Ricki

Posted on: November 06, 2006, 08:00:39 PMWanted to add this Julie Marie this is a very very powerful and right statement you made.....

If you want to commit suicide then do so in a manner that takes into consideration what the consequences for others will be.  I don't think that's too much to ask.

[Julie Marie]

yet they cannot even say the simple statement "my son is transgenderd"-"my brother is transgendered"...(I will never forget coming out of a 1 1/2 day life support coma and my sisiter rubbing my one arm crying telling me she loves me and they love me and whatever it takes rick whatever it takes?-all these years later and her and her husband have made the lines very clear to me of what an abomination i am to them)Urks me, urks me a lot but i would never kill myself out of loath or to cause hardship or harm to others, i guess whatever way we leave this world by our own hands or natures it leaves a mark and a mess to clean-up! 
I often wondered the bloody mess i did leave and the awful scenario i presented i do not even think it made an impact anyway (which that was never the goal) cause like i said my family is in DENIAL....

Ricki

Ricki, your experience made me wonder if, for those of us who have family and friends who think we're screwed up in the head, would our successful suicide only support their misinformed beliefs?  "I knew as soon as Jim told me he wanted to be a woman he was emotionally unstable.  That he took his own life proved that."  I can see that happening in my family.  They would use that to let themselves off the hook for not supporting my decision.  Just that thought alone is enough to motivate me to live a full and happy remainder of my life as a woman.  At some point in time they would have to admit they were wrong, if only to themselves, and that the best thing for me truly was transitioning.

Julie

[Cindi Jones]

Yeah Julie!  LIVE, LIVE!  If only to really piss them off! 

Cindi

[Bob]

HAHHAHAH
Cindi !
you Nut !
HEHEHEHE
Bob........

   

[beth]

                      I was writting this post and meant to post it here but as the news came out about SarahF I posted it in the wrong thread.

I wrote this poem about 3 years ago when I thought I would shortly choose the path of suicide.


edit: for personal reasons I had to remove this poem. Please accept my apology.

[RebeccaFog]

  That was really nice, Beth.      But now I want to cry.

  I wish I could hug everyone who has ever been too deep into the darkness.


Love, Love, Love

Rebecca

[Jessica]

That poem was beautiful Beth and I can relate to every line.

No matter how bad things are, they always get better.

I wish I could believe that.
My experience has been much different.

Things don't get better, they can always get worse, but so far, it's just been day after day after day of the same monotunous emptiness, confusion, loneliness and boredom. I spend my days trying to pass the time and stop the constant mental barrage of thoughts, of what-ifs, of possibilities and opportunities slipped by, or doors unopened and time that's been lost. Those day's roll into weeks, weeks turn to months, months to years.  My dreams and hopes are already gone.  I'm just here passing the time.

However, I admire your optimissim towards life Beth.

Jessica

[beth]

That poem was beautiful Beth and I can relate to every line.

No matter how bad things are, they always get better.

I wish I could believe that.
My experience has been much different.

Things don't get better, they can always get worse, but so far, it's just been day after day after day of the same monotunous emptiness, confusion, loneliness and boredom. I spend my days trying to pass the time and stop the constant mental barrage of thoughts, of what-ifs, of possibilities and opportunities slipped by, or doors unopened and time that's been lost. Those day's roll into weeks, weeks turn to months, months to years.  My dreams and hopes are already gone.  I'm just here passing the time.

However, I admire your optimissim towards life Beth.

Jessica

                             I am really not optimistic, I have just experience with everything falling apart and later correcting itself somewhat.

Things don't get better, they can always get worse, but so far, it's just been day after day after day of the same monotunous emptiness, confusion, loneliness and boredom. I spend my days trying to pass the time and stop the constant mental barrage of thoughts, of what-ifs, of possibilities and opportunities slipped by, or doors unopened and time that's been lost. Those day's roll into weeks, weeks turn to months, months to years.  My dreams and hopes are already gone.  I'm just here passing the time.

                              That is exactly how I felt. Things will get better Jessica, I promise.


beth

[Bob]

Believe me Jessicia it realy does get better...
the problem is is that in your state it is impossable for you to see it !
you can't see light at the end of the tunnel because there is too much junk in the way.
but rest assured there is light at the end of the tunnel and things will bet better
.... No doubt they COULD also get worse but it can only do that for a while then it HAS to get better... the odds predict that ...
My life has proven that... it does get better... when i was at the bottom of the berrol so to speak I couldn't see any light at all and it was just getting worse day by day...
and it seamed like the only thing that would stop my decent was takeing my own life... but I was wrong ! all I needed to do was wait it out and things got better... thats all...
ofcorse in the mean time i started working in the direction of being happier and having things good happen and that is the key.... because it then came about faster !
believe me ...please !  it does get better with time....
....
you know yourself it can't get much worse...  so it has to get better ...Right ?
stop the negitive thinking and start thinking POSITIVE and it will come about faster!
...
Now I understand that no matter how hard things are they can alwayse get worse...right ?
however something you havn't noticed is once you have been inidated by bad things for a long time you become NUMB... the bad things that happen after that point just become less of an impact...they have no power because you are already down at the bottom of the berrol... .. so when your at that point more bad things have little effect on you at all... because you are numb at that point.... so Yes it may alwayse get worse but it doesn't realy matter by then ! ... its Ahhh so what else is new !   no more power in it as it used to have... now the things that drove you down don't hit you so hard and you start back up and even little things that are good realy start you moveing upward...
soon you are on top of the world again because that is just how it works !
so Haing in there  it does get better even though it don't look like it !
<HUG>
Bob.......

[Genevieve]

Hi there Everyone,

I just wanted you all to know that I'm feeling better right now than I have over the last couple of weeks.

It's been a rough time but I feel like I'm making forward progress again.

I know there are going to be ups and downs. I know there are going to be times that I will be in total despair and times where I'm feeling happy and fulfilled. I'm in an area where life is totally uncertain and almost unknown to me. But, we have all bee there.

I REALLY want to thank Julie for starting this thread. It has made me think about the relative value I've placed on some of the things in my life and their meaning to me. Julie, you are wonderful! 

I also want to thank the rest of you for posting your thoughts. You have all helped me and anyone in my position really think about our choices.

Also, to those that PMed me about my previous post. Thank you for your personal support. You have no clue how much you've helped me getting through.

Thank you All.

Genevieve

[Melissa]

Jessica, you have to realize that the worse things are the more likely they are to get better.  It's simple statistics.

Melissa

[Jessica]

Jessica, you have to realize that the worse things are the more likely they are to get better.  It's simple statistics.

I posted a very long reply which made me sound like a dork but the short answer is, that isn't correct because you are dealing with a potentially infinite data set which means that the area under the curve (probability, in statistical terms) will always be infinite, therefore, impossible to calculate.

If you don't believe me, PM me, I'll go through the mathematics.

Jessica

[Melissa]

Oh, I believe you and can understand your mathematical analysis, but it is also making the assumption that it can infinitely get worse.  However, the probability of having everything go wrong that can go wrong decreases as more things go wrong.  In other words, if you had 25 things that could go wrong throughout the course of the day, the likelyhood of all 25 things going wrong--or even all 25 things going right--is less likely than it falling somewhere in the middle (simple bell curve).  Everything just seems to balance out.  It tends to fit this bell curve model.  If you have a day where 20 out of 25 things go wrong, it is more likely you will have 20 things go right the next day because it statistically averages out.  So, regardless of the "potential size of the data set", it still will follow this bell curve and that's why I say that statistically the more things go wrong, the more likely they will go right in an attempt to balance things out.  It's just the way the universe works.

Melissa

[TheBattler]

I have had my brush with Suicide  it is a rather touchy subject arround me - just thinking what I could of done in an instant of pain - now relising the support arround me - i was crazy to think about it - but in depression I guess everyone thinks about ending the pain. I was lucky that on the one night that I real needed help coping a friend was able to come round and tell me I was someone worth supporting. If I did not make that call to tell him to come over - if I tried to hid my pain from everyone - I could of easily done it that night. And having read stories arround here of what failed - I am convinced if I took the action I had thought about all of that day I would not of made it.

Last weekend my neigbour said she would not of copped if I had done that - if someone so close to her had gone and done that to her again (she lost a close relative to suside) she would be been detroyed. I look at what has happened the last week here at Susans and know others would feel the same if someone close to them took that option.

Is there anyway to block a topic showing - I hate seing this pop up all the time.


Alice