What do you think? Back into the closet?

[rjong999]

Hi all,

let me briefly introduce myself: I am a 50-year old male, living in the Netherlands, together with A., my 28-year old girlfriend. A. is a post-op MTF transsexual. We have a very good relationship, we are as open-minded and honest to each other as possible. But sometimes, I just need to get some outsiders' opinion on things.
Let me start by saying that I have a great admiration for all you people out there that have the courage to come out of the closet, and actually follow their feelings or instincts. I am not so sure I would have the courage to do the same thing 🙂 So, please do not feel offended if I sometimes seem judgemental, I am trying to find a way to deal with my feelings and for me, the best way seems to talk to others...

A. had her SRS 3 years ago now, before our relationship. I have know her for much longer, but never knew she was a transsexual, and, as she recently told me, although she was attracted to me, she did not want to get too close before the SRS. It took her, in fact, two years to feel ready, and last year she started responding to my come-on's. After our first real `kissing`-date I noticed there was "something weird" about her, and the next day she told me that she needed to explain something about her 'background', but she was really worried about how I would react. I promissed her that, whatever it was, we would handle it as adults and that I could not imagine anything that would impact our relationship.

I was wrong.

Here comes something I find hard to share with A.: at first I was totally shocked, it was like "I have been kissing and fumbling a boy", I thought my world collapsed, I did not know how to handle this, completely surprised. It took me something like a minute to recover and I told her that it was OK, I could handle it, I didn't care, blah blah...

Well...as it turned out, I CAN handle it, it is OK, but it is not like I don't care. The first weeks were something like a weird dream for me, as I kept saying to myself: "Hey, it's a dressed-up boy, you're sleeping with a boy, you're having sex with a boy". I hated myself for it, but in the mean time I know I should not ignore my feelings. So I kept talking about 'it' with A., and I could see it sometimes made her uncomfortable. What I know is that A. just wants to be a girl, she wants to live like a girl, be treated as a girl, she does not want to be remembered to the time before she was a girl. I know she has moderated some transsexual fora here in NL, but she stopped doing that as she felt she was no longer a transsexual, she was 'just a girl'.

Can you relate to that? Should I just drop the subject? Are we hiding something? I sometimes have this feeling. For example, we have told my parents about A.'s "background" and they reacted very sweet, understanding, surprised but positive. Now I am very close with my brother and sisters, but A. does not want them to know about it, which is really uncomfortable for me (and my parents), as we are not used to secrets in the family.
Also, some of her friends know about it, but most of them don't, and non of my friends know about it. For me, this is a difficult situation. I would rather tell the world, as I do not feel it is something to be ashamed about, but she is very scared, scared that people will make a big thing out of it, scared that people make jokes about her.
I sometimes feel she is going back into the closet.

Then again, her goal was to live her life as a GG, and GG's have noting to tell about SRS and stuff.

Anyone here who can relate to these issues? How do you handle these things?

(not sure this is the right part of the forum, but probably a moderator can move this to the part where it belongs...I was uncertain about the SO forum as it is for SO's only...)

[Lori]

Wow, I'm not sure I know what to say. I think you need to sort through your feelings and come to terms with whatever is troubling you. If "A" was a girl before you found anything out, how does learning about the past change things? Being TS, "A" was never a real boy. Maybe you should know that. "A" may have appeared male and may have had a male life but was never truly male.

Being TS is a biological issue. I'm almost certain of that at this point in life. Try to see "A" as biologically never being a real boy, just a society made one, then over time her true self came out and you were the one to help out and understand it is ok and things are as they should be now.

I'm glad you came here to ask. Hopefully somebody can strike a chord and help you come to terms with your feelings.

[K8]

I'm not nearly as far along as A, but I agree with Lori.  A was always a girl, she was just stuck in a male body for a while.  You evidently have always related to her as her being a girl.  You were attracted to the person and the girl that A was and is.  The person you love now was formed by what she had to go through - be thankful for that past because it created the A you see now and are happy with.

I'm not there yet, but many if not most transsexuals, once the problems of transition and surgery are over, want to go into stealth mode.  They (we) just want to live life as a normal person once we take care of the problems of being born into the wrong body and being forced to be socialized as the wrong gender.  A doesn't want to go back into the closet - A wants to get on with the life she should have had in the beginning but didn't.  She wants to live as she is and should have been.  She probably feels that she won't be able to do that if she is constantly reminded that she had to transition to be the woman she really is.

I don't have any advice about your parents knowing of A's past but your siblings not knowing.  In some ways, her past life as a male is like she used to be in the Army or lived in Spain for a while or something similar - perhaps helping to form who she is now but irrelevant to her current life.  It might be referred to in passing sometime but it isn't important that everyone knows it.  How much of your past does everyone know?

Good luck.  Be kind to each other.

- Kate

[Renate]

Love is about seeing somebody as they truly are. "A" is a woman.

Her old background is her business and her secret to disseminate as she sees fit.
For me, I would tell all the relatives at some point, but just as trivia, not as something important.

[sd]

I would rather tell the world, as I do not feel it is something to be ashamed about, but she is very scared, scared that people will make a big thing out of it, scared that people make jokes about her.
I sometimes feel she is going back into the closet.

Remember how you reacted at first? Now imagine it going the other way.

Not only can (and likely will) some ostracize her, but also you. You were apprehensive and now you want to put her in that same situation over and over again, why? What do you hope to accomplish? Why does everyone need to know? All you are going to do is bring about pain and misery in her life.

Take more time, maybe read about how many here have lost friends and family and such before you start pushing for this. You are asking for A LOT from her and I don't think you understand the consequences of what you want to do.

While you reacted relatively good, some won't. If you break up, you can move on. She on the other hand will have to continue to deal with this for years.

[finewine]

[...]
Anyone here who can relate to these issues? How do you handle these things?

I can relate to aspects of it, as I'm in a relationship with a pre-operative trans-woman and it is the first time I have been in such a relationship.

There are naturally going to be all sorts of questions and curiosities running through your mind because, of course, you've (probably) had no exposure or experience of the issues, motivations and challenges that transgendered people face.

Your partner, like mine, will probably be willing to talk about things and answer questions because they understand this - however, as you noticed, there is a limit to this.  While we prattle on with questions and inquiries, they become increasingly more uncomfortable.  My friends here help me flesh out my understanding without me having to "interrogate" my girlfriend.

Overcoming the incongruity between their physical and mental gender has been a hugely significant part of their lives - possibly even the single most important aspect.

The only real question you should concern yourself with now is - do you love her?

If the answer is yes, then I suggest you do just that - love her, embrace her, accept her.   That's the most precious gift you could give.

Good luck!

[Julie Marie]

The issue about not wanting anyone to know is perfectly understandable.  Look at how you reacted when you went from thinking she's GG to knowing she's TS.  Is there any reason to believe you will be the only one to react that way?

"A" knows how people react to TSs.  "A" knows the negative stigma out there and how incorrect it is but she also knows it can't be changed overnight.  Since she's told you she's female and since you've accepted her as such why is it so important to reveal the part of her past that may turn others away from her?

The issue here seems to be yours.  You have to get over whatever feelings you have about her past and accept her for who she is.  There may be times when she can't be totally open about her past but does that really matter when you consider the consequences?

If she was born into an evangelical family and later converted to another religion that looked down on evangelicals, would it be wrong for her not to divulge her past religious beliefs?  Maybe all she wanted was not to deal with the questions and be accepted for who she is now, not who her parents tried to make her be.

There is an aspect of going from one closet to another but each of us must consider the consequences of divulging everything about ourselves.  I'm sure everyone has something they know will not be received well by the general public.  Should each and every one of us make that known to all?

Julie

[Naturally Blonde]

I can relate to this totally and 'A' is right on the money. I don't like the term 'transsexual' and 'Transwomen' and I never out myself as TS and for me the objective of a transition is to be percieved as female and not as a transsexual.

If your family do not know that 'A' is not a genetic female I don't think you have the right to tell them. If she passes well enough for your family not to read her I think that's excellent. If you love her stay with her and support her, if you don't love her don't waste her time or yours.

[finewine]

[...]
If your family do not know that 'A' is not a genetic female I don't think you have the right to tell them. If she passes well enough for your family not to read her I think that's excellent. If you love her stay with her and support her, if you don't love her don't waste her time or yours.

Absolutely!!  She didn't go through all this hardship to be female only to have that process undermined by revealing her earlier anatomical gender to people for whom it's none of their business anyway.

[yabby]

I would rather tell the world, as I do not feel it is something to be ashamed about, but she is very scared, scared that people will make a big thing out of it, scared that people make jokes about her.
I sometimes feel she is going back into the closet.

we tend not to tell everyone that we are transgender not because it is something bad or a crime but because of how people can or not treat us.

most transgender people in their life were discriminated against and ridiculed at certain times, so we tend to be scared and think: How will people react? maybe they are not open minded and they'll react negatively.

so sometimes it is better to hide it than give everyone the chance to accept us or reject us.

Also for a transgender girl it is uncomfortable to be reminded about her past, if your girlfriend  survived a deadly car accident will you go and tell everyone: Hey do you know that she survived a deadly car accident 6month ago? she was in coma with a broken leg for 2 month by the way. Of course the difference is no one might think: had a car accident? she is disgusting. if she had a car accident once she is not a surviver but always will be a car accidenter.

[Naturally Blonde]

What's the issue here? why should we volunteer this information. The whole point of a transition is a transition and it shouldn't be an issue or the law to broadcast to every tom, dick and harry that you are T. So many people who are TS broadcast the fact through their own web sites and facebook pages. That isn't for everyone and some people like to be disgreet and keep it to themselves and live their life as they should as a female.

'A' appears to cut the mustard, so why out her?

[rjong999]

Hi all,

let me start by thanking you for some many replies! I certainly think I have come to the right place. And as for "cutting the mustard" - don't worry, she's cutting allright!

I guess I have never realised (and maybe nevver fully will realise) the problems you guys (pun intended 🙂 ) are facing in being accepted, finally, as what you feel you are. And let me be crystal clear: I think everyone has the fundamental right to be what he or she wants to be.

An one other thing I need to be crystal clear about: A. is the love of my live, and nothing will change that. I am not 'evaluating options', I am trying to find the optimal way to deal with this, together with my love, without hurting her with my ignorance in some of these matters, and that is why I came to you for some help.

I understand from your reactions more or less what I also understand from A.: just let it go, don't make a thing out of it. I can do that, of course, but I can never loose the idea that there is something dishonest about it. Can you understand that?

Maybe times will change, and somewhere in the future TS will not be such a big thing as it, apparantly, is today. And maybe I shoud just swallow it and be happy with what I have been given
Anyway, thanks for pointing me in the right direction!

[FairyGirl]

I see nothing dishonest about it at all! Geez, you don't ever have to lie about anything, but you don't always have to tell everyone everything you know, either.

Suppose you were born with a birth defect, a large extra growth on your body that you hated and wanted it to be gone. It was something you were ashamed of and you knew that if you told people about your growth, they would ridicule and persecute you for being "different". Finally one day you got the money to have surgery to have your unsightly, embarassing growth removed. How would you then like it if your wife went around telling everybody, "oh my husband used to have this horrible, ugly growth but had it removed. Wanna see pictures? Wanna know the details?" What on earth is the point of needing to spread something like that? I don't make a point of going out and describing in unerring detail the finer points of my SO's body- it's nobody's damn business. Neither is your girlfriend's past.

If you cannot let go of the (her) past then you will certainly have no future. Just sayin'.

[Butterfly]

I can never loose the idea that there is something dishonest about it. Can you understand that?

No, I can't but you're entitled to your own opinions.  Do you want to know what I find "dishonest"?  The many posts with a trollish flavour to them I read all over the web.

[Northern Jane]

I have been around this old world a long time rjong and I have seen this many times. It has happened to me more than once and your reaction is perfectly normal.

First, I have to reiterate what others have said: A's background is HERS and is not for you to share with others. If she wanted to share, it is her choice who she shares with, when, and how. If you go around telling others, you are going to loose her and hurt her deeply so STOP IT!

You need to realize that this whole experience is TERRIBLY painful for those who live through it. She is only 3 years past the pain and it is going to take a long time for that pain to fade away. Every time she has to relive it with someone else, the pain comes back and she feels invalidated as a woman.

Another thing you REALLY need to realize is that A was never "a guy". Sure, she had a birth defect, a deformity, but that's all there is to it. Her heart and soul has always been girl. That doesn't make you Gay or even strange for being attracted to her - you are attracted to a girl. Big deal!

I have been 35 years "on this side of the fence". I have had my share of relationships and when things start getting intense, I usually tell the guy about my childhood .... 99% of them run screaming into the night. You can't imagine how that hurts, to have some attracted to you, to develop feelings for him, and then watch him disappear into the sunset because of some cruel twist of fate!

Love your honey for who she is. Be good to her, keep her confidences, support her, and you will have a companion to treasure.

[finewine]

[...] but I can never loose the idea that there is something dishonest about it. Can you understand that?

Think of it this way - she is being honest about who and what she is.  For her, *not* being a woman is living a lie.  You're probably accustomed to viewing mental and anatomical gender as the same thing.  Try to imagine waking up one morning, thinking and feeling the same as you do now but with a female body - and with society at large trying to force you into a dress, into liking pink, into getting a boyfriend.  That would feel really wrong because, mentally, every cell in your brain is screaming "I'm a MAN!"

Under those circumstances, wouldn't conforming with your anatomy be the real dishonesty? 🙂

[sd]

I can do that, of course, but I can never loose the idea that there is something dishonest about it. Can you understand that?

Not volunteering information is not the same as lying or being dishonest.  She is who she is.
Do you make sure everyone you know has your complete sexual history? Why not? Because it's none of their business.

*This reads more harsh than I intended it to be so please don't take offense to it.*

[Naturally Blonde]

I wish we could have 'A's side of the story?

[rjong999]

I wish we could have 'A's side of the story?

Me too 🙂 In case you hadn't noticed, that is more or less the point.

I think the comparison with a strange thingey on your belly is nice, but somewhat besides the point. Let's be honest: being born in a man's body was not A.'s choise (just as much as me being born in a male body was not my choise), and feeling that you are in a body of the wrong gender was not A.'s choise either. However, doing something about is was her choise, and this makes it special. THe difference is significant.

And no, for me there is no difference between lying about something and hiding something that you obviously can understand would be of interest to someone else, specially if that someone else is a close relative.  This may sound odd to some of you here, but I have never had any secrets for my family, and have never seen the need to hide anything from them.
Then again, just the idea of hurting A. is enough to understand that I will have to make do with the situation one way or another, and the most likely course of action ssems to be to just ignore A.'s "background", even though I think it does not do her justice for the courage and the pain she must have gone through.

There is, as always, a complicating factor...A.'s father has a serious mental condition, and he will just as easily "blow her cover" as he will drink a beer, he still often calls her by her "boys name" and stuff. The only reason A. wanted me to tell my parents is that she knew my parents would meet hers, and her father is "uncontrollable", so to avoid any difficult situations she decided my parents should know.

The basic question is: If I treat A. "just like a woman" (which, believe me, is just what I do!), and forget about her background, will I not also disrespect the pain, the courage, the effort, the whole fact that she has had SRS (which obviously, as you all made clear, is a huge thing for her)?
Or will time heal whatever wounds were caused by this thing, and will we live our lives as ordenary couples, where the wife takes her daily dose of hormones, has her face de-haired more often then normal and has some beautifull pictures of a holiday in Thailand, some years ago?

Post Merge: July 07, 2009, 04:21:20 AM

Not volunteering information is not the same as lying or being dishonest.  She is who she is.
Do you make sure everyone you know has your complete sexual history? Why not? Because it's none of their business.

*This reads more harsh than I intended it to be so please don't take offense to it.*

No offense taken...he, I'm Dutch...
But hiding information from someone you know would be interested to get that information is dishonest, I think. Or at least, I was brought up to believe so.

The reason not everyone has my compete sexual history is that I think it is rather boring. However, if there is anything anyone should want to know about it, I would always answer them openly, as I feel there is nothing about me that I should be ashamed or afraid for. However, I can understand that this would be different for other people and other circumstances, and I can certainly understand the risk of discimination or abuse...
Post Merge: July 07, 2009, 05:28:41 AM

I have been around this old world a long time rjong and I have seen this many times. It has happened to me more than once and your reaction is perfectly normal.

First, I have to reiterate what others have said: A's background is HERS and is not for you to share with others. If she wanted to share, it is her choice who she shares with, when, and how. If you go around telling others, you are going to loose her and hurt her deeply so STOP IT!

You need to realize that this whole experience is TERRIBLY painful for those who live through it. She is only 3 years past the pain and it is going to take a long time for that pain to fade away. Every time she has to relive it with someone else, the pain comes back and she feels invalidated as a woman.

Another thing you REALLY need to realize is that A was never "a guy". Sure, she had a birth defect, a deformity, but that's all there is to it. Her heart and soul has always been girl. That doesn't make you Gay or even strange for being attracted to her - you are attracted to a girl. Big deal!

I have been 35 years "on this side of the fence". I have had my share of relationships and when things start getting intense, I usually tell the guy about my childhood .... 99% of them run screaming into the night. You can't imagine how that hurts, to have some attracted to you, to develop feelings for him, and then watch him disappear into the sunset because of some cruel twist of fate!

Love your honey for who she is. Be good to her, keep her confidences, support her, and you will have a companion to treasure.

Jane, you speak wise words...

Especially the phrase "birth defect" seems to hit the spot with me...

and do not worry: I will NEVER disclose her secret to anyone without her explicit consent, and after reading all your good advise, I will never take any initiatives in that direction either. This summer I have planned to propose marriage to her and we will live happily ever after... 🙂

[Naturally Blonde]

Ok, Call the families bluff if you want to do that. If you tell them about 'A's past they might say 'are you kidding me'! 'nah, I don't believe you'!

Then would you take it further? you wouldn't have to because you have told them and if they don't believe you it's still cool and your mind is at rest. But personally if I were you I wouldn't tell anyone as it's not relevent. If someone ask's you or has worked it out for themselves that might be a different matter.