The price of life

[lisagurl]

HEALTH: Dirty Water Kills 4,000 Children a Day
By Thalif Deen

UNITED NATIONS, Sep 28 (IPS) - The statistics are mind-boggling: of the more than six billion people in the world today, over one billion have no access to improved drinking water - a basic necessity for human life - and about 2.6 billion people do not have access to improved sanitation.

And according to the U.N. children's agency UNICEF, polluted water and lack of basic sanitation claim the lives of over 1.5 million children every year, mostly from water-borne diseases.

[tekla]

The Taliban people are probably just smoking a lot of opium. Have you thought of that? They're really nothing but a bunch of drug lords,

Most dealers don't use their own product.  No doubt the Taliban grows it and sells it, there is no evidence they use it.

[lisagurl]

The Taliban people are probably just smoking a lot of opium. Have you thought of that? They're really nothing but a bunch of drug lords,

Most dealers don't use their own product.  No doubt the Taliban grows it and sells it, there is no evidence they use it.

The evidence tells they do not even grow it they just provide security to transport it. They also use children to get it past check points.

[Mister]

In fact there are large numbers of person in the US without TV, they tend to be like, successful, and make far beyond average income. Odd hunh?

I haven't had a television in six years and I'd like to say i'm pretty successful.  And no, Sigma, the sound of television doesn't make me want to curl up into a ball and wail.  It seems ridiculous to spend $200 (and much, much higher) for a television to then pay $50 or more for cable so I can sit down and space out.  I'd rather read, get some work done or spend time outside of my apartment with real people.

[Sigma Prime]

And no, Sigma, the sound of television doesn't make me want to curl up into a ball and wail.

Oh, I know. I was just referring to my universal hatred for intrusive noise. I really hate it THAT much. I hate it so much that my levels of hatred for it deserve to be a named psychiatric illness.

It seems ridiculous to spend $200 (and much, much higher) for a television to then pay $50 or more for cable so I can sit down and space out.  I'd rather read, get some work done or spend time outside of my apartment with real people.

Or waste time with your netbook, which is what I mainly do when I am not creating mayhem. @.@

[Mister]

Or waste time with your netbook, which is what I mainly do when I am not creating mayhem. @.@

Giving me a netbook to work with would be like giving Tekla a karaoke machine and two flashlights for a 4 piece band.

[fae_reborn]

If we take our understandable empathy out of the equation, do folks here think intervention via aid etc. is the right or wrong strategy?

Putting aside the fact that empathy is necessary for giving aid in the first place, it depends on the type of aid being given.  Right now, aid usually comes in the form of money, food, and water.  These precious supplies are often taken by those who hold power in poorer countries.  Those same individuals tend to be corrupt, and instead of distributing supplies they hoard them for themselves and the strongmen they surround themselves with.  An example of this is Mogadishu, Somalia, in 1992/1993 when UN-supplied food and water meant to go to the general population, was horded and fought over by the warlords.  Hundreds and possibly thousands starved.

A better alternative to this kind of "aid" given in the past, is to work with the local populace to see what their needs really are, instead of taking an ethnocentric viewpoint and just blindly throwing food/water/money at the problem.  If we worked with the local population in these area and let them lead the way, we could help them pull themselves out of poverty.  We should help them improve their infrastructure so they can eventually provide for themselves. 

Maybe an irrigation system for farmers?  Or a tractor or other means with which to help out on the farm and to take their goods to market?  How about a well so the local children can have clean, fresh water?  By providing the means to get the basics of life, power would return to the people and be taken out of the hands of the warlords/local militias who terrorize the populace.

[finewine]

Giving me a netbook to work with would be like giving Tekla a karaoke machine and two flashlights for a 4 piece band.

Nail up the chicken wire and sell me a ticket - I've gotta see that gig

[lisagurl]

The next hacking frontier: Your brain?

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/07/10/mind.hacking/index.html

"The first thing is to ask ourselves is, 'Could there be a security and privacy problem?'" Kohno said. "Asking 'Is there a problem?' gets you 90 percent there, and that's the most important thing."

[Sigma Prime]

A better alternative to this kind of "aid" given in the past, is to work with the local populace to see what their needs really are, instead of taking an ethnocentric viewpoint and just blindly throwing food/water/money at the problem.  If we worked with the local population in these area and let them lead the way, we could help them pull themselves out of poverty.  We should help them improve their infrastructure so they can eventually provide for themselves.

Actually, I think that the better strategy would be to discover what is preventing these tribespeople from forming their own, local governing body. Particularly when you are referring to tribespeople who are frequently raided by thugs like the Taliban, even moreso for those who think they NEED thugs like the Taliban somehow, a sounder strategy would be to assist them in developing a more-or-less organized, LOCAL regime for themselves. The best thing for their regional governments to do (the best entity for dealing with Pakistani tribespeople would be the Pakistani government. I am sure the government of Pakistan could be persuaded as to the soundness of this strategy), besides making sure they have the IDEA to actually DO this, would be to keep any would-be nuisances out of the way. I am sure that, once they just got together to discuss their issues, they should have no difficulty figuring things out for themselves. The usefulness of this just isn't OBVIOUS because, superficially, it's just a bunch of people who have no reason to give a hoot about each other crowding together in the same mosque twice a month and sharing a jumbo-sized bowl of muesli, just so they can see what is on each other's minds. You wouldn't think it could accomplish much. However, just as soon as two or three people said, "you know, we only need one Caterpiller to dig everyone within fifty miles from here a decent irrigation system within the next six years," the real power of self-government would assert itself. Why should these people need protection from the outside when they could very well put together their own humble police force, so they don't have to WORRY with thugs like the Taliban? You know? And nobody even needs to TELL them about these things. They are intelligent enough that, if they all got together, they would find solutions all on their own that work for THEM.

[lisagurl]

They are intelligent enough that, if they all got together, they would find solutions all on their own that work for THEM.

Tell that to the women.

[Sigma Prime]

Tell that to the women.

That's mostly the fault of orgs like the Taliban, and the IDEA is to get these tribespeople to communicate with each other, so they can eventually learn to keep law and order WITHOUT much external help. What makes the Taliban powerful is the fact that people think they NEED military organizations like the Taliban. Why put up with those thugs, when a local constable is a lot less trouble and makes better conversation? So let's say the government of Pakistan went out to where these tribespeople are settled, and all they asked these tribespeople to do was to just have some blockhead ride around on a donkey, say it was some poor sap with a gimpy leg who can't work anymore, and this guy has the job of making sure that, if one family or one tribe has a problem, a bunch of young volunteers are ready to come to their aide. It's a common sense idea, but a very busy farmer just doesn't have the time to THINK of it. Now, while these young volunteers are learning how to rescue kittens from trees, they are NOT running off to join the danged Taliban. They're already putting that hero-energy into something their families APPROVE of. This one simple idea, this one idea that seems completely simple and easy on the surface, could alter the course of history for their entire part of the world. Even though it's a simple, common-sense idea, though, a farmer has a very busy and hectic life, particularly where resources are very poor. They don't have the TIME to think about the big-picture because they are so focused on the particulars of their OWN lives.

Left to themselves, these tribespeople might not treat their women all great and groovy like WE want them to, but it would be a big improvement over how things are under the Taliban. It's something they themselves can build on.

[fae_reborn]

Actually, I think that the better strategy would be to discover what is preventing these tribespeople from forming their own, local governing body. Particularly when you are referring to tribespeople who are frequently raided by thugs like the Taliban, even moreso for those who think they NEED thugs like the Taliban somehow, a sounder strategy would be to assist them in developing a more-or-less organized, LOCAL regime for themselves. The best thing for their regional governments to do (the best entity for dealing with Pakistani tribespeople would be the Pakistani government. I am sure the government of Pakistan could be persuaded as to the soundness of this strategy), besides making sure they have the IDEA to actually DO this, would be to keep any would-be nuisances out of the way. I am sure that, once they just got together to discuss their issues, they should have no difficulty figuring things out for themselves. The usefulness of this just isn't OBVIOUS because, superficially, it's just a bunch of people who have no reason to give a hoot about each other crowding together in the same mosque twice a month and sharing a jumbo-sized bowl of muesli, just so they can see what is on each other's minds. You wouldn't think it could accomplish much. However, just as soon as two or three people said, "you know, we only need one Caterpiller to dig everyone within fifty miles from here a decent irrigation system within the next six years," the real power of self-government would assert itself. Why should these people need protection from the outside when they could very well put together their own humble police force, so they don't have to WORRY with thugs like the Taliban? You know? And nobody even needs to TELL them about these things. They are intelligent enough that, if they all got together, they would find solutions all on their own that work for THEM.

Such a governing body already exists in many countries on a local, family basis whereas government exists within families and villages.  The problem is that groups (you refer to the Taliban) are coming in with weapons, and intimidating these people with violence; such groups don't help those communities at all, they use those communities' fear as the basis of their power.  Yes, I'm sure there are some educated people in these populations, but they do not have access to the means to a.) defend themselves, or b.) in some cases, provide the very essentials of life.

Take for instance the fact that, in refugee camps in Darfur, women need to walk several miles outside the safety of the camps to find food and water.  They are exposed to thugs and militias, and many are raped and/or killed either to or from the source of water as "examples" so those thugs can stay in power

Furthermore, compared to the West, communities and watching out for your neighbors is very important in poorer countries; they're not just "a bunch of people who have no reason to give a hoot about each other crowding together in the same mosque twice a month" as you say.  Don't degrade the lives of those people like that.  Families in villages share responsibilities, and in some cases, different villages/tribes work together to solve problems that affect both of them.

That's mostly the fault of orgs like the Taliban, and the IDEA is to get these tribespeople to communicate with each other, so they can eventually learn to keep law and order WITHOUT much external help. What makes the Taliban powerful is the fact that people think they NEED military organizations like the Taliban. Why put up with those thugs, when a local constable is a lot less trouble and makes better conversation? So let's say the government of Pakistan went out to where these tribespeople are settled, and all they asked these tribespeople to do was to just have some blockhead ride around on a donkey, and this guy has the job of making sure that, if one family or one tribe has a problem, a bunch of young volunteers are ready to come to their aide. It's a common sense idea, but a very busy farmer just doesn't have the time to THINK of it. Now, while these young volunteers are learning how to rescue kittens from trees, they are NOT running off to join the danged Taliban. They're already putting that hero-energy into something their families APPROVE of. This one simple idea, this one idea that seems completely simple and easy on the surface, could alter the course of history for their entire part of the world. Even though it's a simple, common-sense idea, though, a farmer has a very busy and hectic life, particularly where resources are very poor. They don't have the TIME to think about the big-picture because they are so focused on the particulars of their OWN lives.

Left to themselves, these tribespeople might not treat their women all great and groovy like WE want them to, but it would be a big improvement over how things are under the Taliban. It's something they themselves can build on.

Again, people in these communities don't think they need people like the Taliban; those groups came to power through fear and intimidating the population into submission.  Yes, while in some places there may exist a local "constable," but in many cases that person is corrupt and accepts bribes from the local militia/thugs to turn a blind eye when the village is raided/intimidated, or such an individual may indeed be part of the militia/thugs themselves.

By saying these people can't think of these ideas or don't have the time to, is very ethnocentric and racist.  These are free-thinking individuals who are just in a rough spot, and if we bothered to ask them what they wanted, we could actually help them.

[Sigma Prime]

Such a governing body already exists in many countries on a local, family basis whereas government exists within families and villages.

Well, apparently there are enough unoccupied young people leftover for the Taliban to pick up recruits. The Taliban isn't forcing these kids into service, either. The Taliban offers them a chance, in their boring and deprived lives, to go off and play some bigshot hero. It's the same thing that motivates people on our own unpatrolled streets to become gangsters, or join some White Supremacist organization. Remember, the original idea behind the CRIPS was to bring a sense of order to the streets in a part of the USA where there was NOT a valid or trained police force in the area.

The problem is that groups (you refer to the Taliban) are coming in with weapons, and intimidating these people with violence; such groups don't help those communities at all, they use those communities' fear as the basis of their power.

So these opium farmers (opium is a pretty big crop in this part of the world. It's used to make legit stuff like morphine, by the way) would really put up with these guys if they were nothing but a bunch of bullies. Way to go. You just portrayed them as spineless cowards who lack the capacity for standing up for themselves AT ALL. The point you are missing is the the Taliban DOES purport itself as giving these people some sort of service. That's one of the REASONS that the people put up with them.

Take for instance the fact that, in refugee camps in Darfur,

It doesn't help that the Sudanese are murdering the people in Darfur, and they are so utterly impoverished that their brains are probably being warped by malnutrition before they are even born. Darfur is a real basket case, and they have more enemies than friends.

By saying these people can't think of these ideas or don't have the time to, is very ethnocentric and racist.

1) They are white people. The very existence of the Pashtun people is one of the reasons that I use the term, "Asiatic," when I am referring to Mongolic or Turkic Asians, which is what most people think of when you use the term, "Asian." The Pashtun people are just as Asian as any mongol, and so are the Tajik people and the Azeri people. They are a bunch of white people. How is it possible for me to be racist against a bunch of white people, people who are more closely related to me than the Nihonjin (I looked it up. They are mostly the Yamoto, who are descended from a very hodgepodge collection of Mainland ethnicities who colonized the island in prehistoric times), who govern one of the most successful economies in the entire world, or the Han people, who constitute the majority of the population of the INCREDIBLY successful nation of Taiwan. You know, I am getting a little tired of being called a "racist." You guys don't know ANYTHING about me to be calling me that, and it's very insulting. It implies that I'm somehow very ignorant, and I think I've proven myself a lot more knowledgable than you guys regarding this subject matter.

2) I am basically treating them as I would treat some of the redneck bumpkins who live within twenty miles of me, many of whom I am related to. It is the opposite of ethnocentrism when you are living according to the assumption that there is very little inherent difference between people from your own culture, and people from other cultures.

You guys really DON'T seem to know much about this culture, whereas I DO. I actually COME from a family, my mother's side of the family to be exact, who have a very similar lifestyle to these people (although they are slowly choosing to go off and become engineers and accountants). I know how these people think. I have lived among them. I regularly attended the reunions until my father blackballed me because he was embarrassed over the fact that I am an atheist. These guys wake up at the butt-crack of dawn, and they don't stop working until they go to sleep at night. Any other time they have is spent tending to children and the elderly. They don't have TIME to think about things in terms of the big picture unless SOMEONE gives them the idea to do so. Once they have been GIVEN the idea, they can handle themselves WITHOUT any external aide.

[lisagurl]

The Taliban isn't forcing these kids into service, either.

They buy kids for $6000 train them to blow themselves up then sell them for $12000.
Post Merge: July 10, 2009, 04:14:41 PM

[Sigma Prime]

They buy kids for $6000 train them to blow themselves up then sell them for $12000.
Post Merge: July 10, 2009, 04:14:41 PM

And you thereby insinuate, through context, that this characterizes the manner in which MOST members of the Taliban join the organization. This really goes hand-in-hand with your usual pattern of mendacity, Lisa. Most Taliban recruits go in as volunteers. Perhaps they are being deceived, but it is incorrect to imply that they are being recruited by force.

[lisagurl]

Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud has been increasingly using the children in attacks, the officials said. A video released by Pakistan's military shows the children training for the task.

In the video of a training camp, children can be seen going through exercises.

Mehsud has been selling the children, once trained, to other Taliban officials for $6,000 to $12,000, Pakistani military officials said.

A top Taliban leader in Pakistan is buying and selling children for suicide bombings, Pakistani and U.S. officials said.

Some of the recruits are forced like those in Africa. Some have no choice due to need of survival, Some are due to religious beliefs. Some are just paid mercenaries, some have no understanding of what is going on and follow their peers.
Post Merge: July 10, 2009, 06:28:20 PM

WASHINGTON — The mass killing of Taliban prisoners was carried out by the forces of an American-backed warlord during the 2001 invasion of Afghanistan.

Nobody is an angle in war.

[Sigma Prime]

Some of the recruits are forced like those in Africa. Some have no choice due to need of survival, Some are due to religious beliefs. Some are just paid mercenaries, some have no understanding of what is going on and follow their peers.
Post Merge: July 10, 2009, 06:28:20 PM
Nobody is an angle in war.

Well, obviously, yes. Members of an organization like the Taliban probably do join under highly diverse circumstances.

[fae_reborn]

So these opium farmers (opium is a pretty big crop in this part of the world. It's used to make legit stuff like morphine, by the way) would really put up with these guys if they were nothing but a bunch of bullies. Way to go. You just portrayed them as spineless cowards who lack the capacity for standing up for themselves AT ALL.

I did not say they were cowards.  It's kind of hard to stand up for yourself when the other person has an assault rifle and you have nothing, unless you have a death wish.

Furthermore, I did not say you were ignorant, Sigma.  I was merely saying that, from my perspective, your view seems ethnocentric, in that we just have to "give them the ideas" i.e. our western ideas.  I know they get up early and work all day, but that doesn't mean they can't "think" of a better way to do things, these people do have brains after all.

I have two college degrees and I did study some of this stuff myself (History, Women's Issues--including world issues face by women and other impoverished people, and Sociology), so I kind of have a good handle on what I'm saying.  That's all.

[Sigma Prime]

I did not say they were cowards.  It's kind of hard to stand up for yourself when the other person has an assault rifle and you have nothing, unless you have a death wish.

Or your people are more organized. Watch how these otters, here, approach that crocodile as a single, coordinated unit:

Otters will <not allowed> you up

It's like they are telepathically linked, isn't it? The thing is, people don't need much impetus to really act together as a coordinated whole. They often just need someone to give them the idea that they CAN. From there, it is just human nature to act together to resist against a hostile outsider, and there are a whole lot more able-bodied tribespeople out there than there are Taliban thugs.

Really, the first thing these tribespeople have to get out of their heads is that they are helpless without a bunch of assault weapons. They are like the worst rednecks ever. It's like they worship assault weapons or something. To tell you the truth, I think the worst thing the Pakistani government could do is send them a bunch of assault weapons. No, what would turn the tables on the Taliban would be to get the message to the people that true power comes from the heart, not from a weapon or any other outside source. The British police have mostly done without weapons for a long, long time.

And, again, part of the problem is that a lot of people accept the Taliban regime or tolerate it. The Taliban may be a gang of thugs, but they also act as a government in a part of the world where there is a major power vacuum. In part, they are applying an extreme form of Pashtun tribal codes, and, to these Pashtun tribespeople, it makes them look semi-legitimate. The message to send to the Pashtun tribespeople, then, is what's wrong with the Pashtun tribespeople applying their laws, not militant outsiders who come with weapons and disturb the peace?

Furthermore, I did not say you were ignorant, Sigma.  I was merely saying that, from my perspective, your view seems ethnocentric, in that we just have to "give them the ideas" i.e. our western ideas.

A simple idea can make a lot of change. I don't think it's ethnocentric to hold that sentiment. To tell you the truth, I think you were just trying to slander and defame me, and I think you're full of crap.

I know they get up early and work all day, but that doesn't mean they can't "think" of a better way to do things, these people do have brains after all.

My Saxon ancestors had brains, too, but they never thought of these ideas, either. They were too busy beating each other with swords and getting drunk. It took the human race thousands of years and a lot of shot-in-the-dark, chance-in-hell coincidences to even come up with these ideas at all. But, you know, a couple of good ideas can really change the world.

I have two college degrees and I did study some of this stuff myself (History, Women's Issues--including world issues face by women and other impoverished people, and Sociology), so I kind of have a good handle on what I'm saying.  That's all.

BS. You probably thought they were a bunch of Arabs or Turks or something, or why in the heck would you call me a "racist." You don't sound like you know much about that part of the world. In fact, I don't think you know a whole lot about people who live in small, tribal communities, whereas my family actually COMES from a small, tribal community just a few miles north of where I am right now.

I think people like you are part of the problem. The idea that these people are helpless against the Taliban just because the Taliban has assault weapons is part of what gives the Taliban their power. If the Pashtun chose to believe in themselves instead, they could seriously turn the tables.