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Is there any true enlightenment which science cannot measure?

Started by Nero, July 21, 2009, 12:26:04 PM

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lisagurl

QuoteGo ahead, shout it, Lisa MULTIPLE ANSWERS!

Not multiple answers but multiple relative viewing points, and only one answer . We would have to be in a different dimension to view a point from all angles at once at the same time.

As Einstein points out everything is relative.

Post Merge: July 23, 2009, 10:24:43 AM

QuoteWhat reality, in our world and for the purposes of this discussion "doesn't depend on humans?" I'm sorta at a loss on that.

So was God enlightened? How about the dinosaurs? When did this enlightenment start? When did humans start? You can not discuss things without including it all. That is making false walls.
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FairyGirl

Quote from: lisagurl on July 23, 2009, 10:09:49 AM
Not when a reality does not depend on any humans. There are different types of reality.

I agree, probably as many as there are people and animals and trees and rocks and flowers and, well, stuff. Everything experiences reality in it's own unique way, but in order to stay out of those asylums we humans more or less have to come to a consensus on what is real to the cultures we live in. There are many ways to explore other realities, and children do this all the time when they play pretend. Tekla's thread on sane or insane has some posts about people whose realities differ substantially from what most of us experience. Are their's any less real than ours?
Girls rule, boys drool.
If I keep a green bough in my heart, then the singing bird will come.
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lisagurl

QuoteEverything experiences reality in it's own unique way

Reality does not have to be experienced it just is.
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tekla

I agree with Lisa, just because you not thinking its real, does not change the laws of physics.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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FairyGirl

you re saying you believe that reality is not dependent on consciousness and I believe that consciousness is the source of all realities. Not sure if either is provable, because we cannot step outside of our consciousnesses to find out.  Further, reality is made of consciousness, and that all things, including rocks and atoms, contain some form of it. That may be a "brain in a jar" argument but it doesn't preclude physics or the driving desire of the brain to explore the jar.

There is a very good book on this subject- "Biocentrism: How Life and Consciousness Are the Keys to Understanding the True Nature of the Universe" by Robert Lanza and Bob Berman. Interesting reading, and the authors do not allude to any god or religion either, but make their arguments based on physical science.
Girls rule, boys drool.
If I keep a green bough in my heart, then the singing bird will come.
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NicholeW.

Quote from: lisagurl on July 23, 2009, 10:19:27 AM
Not multiple answers but multiple relative viewing points, and only one answer . We would have to be in a different dimension to view a point from all angles at once at the same time.

Only one answer? Hmm, that seems a rather pervasive human desire; that there be but one answer.

Trouble with that is:

QuoteSo was God enlightened? How about the dinosaurs? When did this enlightenment start? When did humans start? You can not discuss things without including it all. That is making false walls.

How to include "it all" when, as someone likes to say, one is a bear of very little brain? And for that matter, a bear of very little experience when it comes right to the point.

Is the experience, for instance, of reading and processing Dr. Robert James Bakker's The Dinosaur Heresies a means to entering the reality of dinosaurs? Not one, but every dinosaur that ever inhabited the planet? If that can be done, why would getting at that through Dr. Bakker's book be anymore a valid way of understanding dinosaur realities than would watching The Land Before Time?

The brain-in-a-jug argument intervenes somewhere about here, I think. :)

Then we move along to Deity. Mother forfend! That brings an entirely different and very imaginative set of realities or reality to the fore. O my!

Shall we enter that set of realities through The Holy Bible (many believe that they may,) Brihadaranaka Upanishad, the Magnificent Koran, Sjoo and Mor's The Great Cosmic Mother, physics(good grief, which one? Newton's Einstein's Bohr's, Pythagorus' or some other, goodness knows physics remains static always, right?), Lanza's & Berman's, Biocentrism: How Life and Consciousness Are the Keys to Understanding the True Nature of the Universe or just through the apprehension of a single entity's (yours or mine, or someone else's) perception, consciousness and mental facility?

Choose one and declare it's The Reality. The one reality that we seek and see how quickly the reality becomes that you cannot do that and obtain even the least agreement amongst two, let alone three minds.

I am at a loss just how we proceed, seemingly having run up against a wall of individual insistence on how that one reality looks, feels and smells to this bear of very little brain.

O, I do, however accept tekla's statement that just because you not thinking its real, does not change the laws of physics. That's pretty easily proveable: step out onto this three-story high ledge with me and step off. If physics doesn't have some worth and reality then you and I both should be able to walk safely three or four feet out into what appears to be air alone and return unscathed. :)


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FairyGirl

I think I'll go polish my nails now, my head is starting to hurt.

Besides, all we bears of little brains know that reality is really in the eye of the beer-holder.
Girls rule, boys drool.
If I keep a green bough in my heart, then the singing bird will come.
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NicholeW.

QED, FG!

What about the wet t-shirts? Mother knows it's been raining here for hours! :)
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FairyGirl

Quote from: Nichole on July 23, 2009, 12:42:39 PMWhat about the wet t-shirts? Mother knows it's been raining here for hours! :)

now that's a reality I can wrap my head around! (so to speak)  ;D
Girls rule, boys drool.
If I keep a green bough in my heart, then the singing bird will come.
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finewine

Just got back from a long day at the kiddies hospital having my daughter's eyes checked...good to see the usual philosophical chestnuts roasting on the fire of debate again :)

There are those who insist that nothing objectively exists (i.e. there is no moon if there is no observer) because without the perception of an observer, "reality" has no meaning...and each person's subjective view of reality is private to them.  Personally I think this is hogwash, although I'd be inclined to agree about proponents living in their own private reality!
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lisagurl

Quoteyou re saying you believe that reality is not dependent on consciousness and I believe that consciousness is the source of all realities. Not sure if either is provable, because we cannot step outside of our consciousnesses to find out.

It is not my belief. Diamonds take millions of years to form. The earth was here billions of years before life. That existence is a reality, before the concept of reality or life.  We can use multiple measurements to make a  probability to separate personal realities from physical reality. The flaw in this is that we can not do it from every angle at the same time. But it is very useful in predicting physical material phenomena.

Now enlightenment has only subjective hearsay. But we can measure physical functions. So we would need a new paradigm of finding evidence and verifying it.

Post Merge: July 23, 2009, 03:28:55 PM

Quotescientists themselves seem very disinterested in improving the lot of mankind

Who said scientists wanted a goal to improve man kind? They just look for truth. It is the Philosophy that is more interested in mankind but then they only have ideas. It is mankind themselves that have to make the improvements.
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Bombi

Aside from the metaphysical. i just had a thought as i read  the posts. I liked at the question again and thought yes, In the last few years there has been an increase of enlightenment. It will or is measured by science. The paradigm is changing, society is becoming more open to same sex marriage, the immorality of prohibiting natural remedies to eliminate pain and suffering ( MJ reform) and gender dysphand .We, (US) is / are becoming more multi-cultural with less dissent. Maybe it is because our core beliefs have been challenged by the events of the last 10 years by terror, war and change. I couldn't say that would be defined as enlightenment but it is most likely the biggest paradigm shift the old has seen since the 60's
This seems way off topic .
Yes there is really bigender people
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NicholeW.

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finewine

Not guilty, your honour.  Aside from a very rare fine cigar with a glass of vintage port, I quit all smoking materials long ago. :)
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Cindy

Always wondered about the tree falling in the forest and not making any noise. As for the carrot having no colour, well...

Cindy; being enlightening
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