Need legal reference for CA DMV gender change rules

[Arch]

Where exactly is it written that top surgery is considered sufficient for FTMs to permanently change their gender marker with the California DMV? I need an official pronouncement that I can easily access online and print out for my GP. I've seen this stuff somewhere, but I just can't remember where. I poked around for a little while this afternoon but finally decided to get some help.

You might be wondering why I don't go to my top surgeon or my endo. My surgeon is in another city, and I won't be seeing him again until after my DMV appointment. I was lucky enough to get somebody's cancellation for the DMV, so the date is rapidly approaching. I will probably have to wait weeks if I miss this opportunity. Naturally, I don't want to wait. And fortunately, I'm seeing my GP early next week.

I was originally going to get the DMV paperwork done by my endo, but he screwed up and marked my gender identification as "transitional" instead of "complete." He was out of the office when I went to pick up the form, so I didn't get to talk to him about it. I can't be sure that his act was a mistake. He's an odd duck and not fully reliable. He had previously told me that he would mark "complete" as soon as I had my top surgery, but I think it's possible that he is expecting me to get hysto as well because he was talking about it the last couple of times I saw him.

So I need a backup plan--or better yet, I need a new main plan. If I can persuade my GP to fill out the form, I could save myself a lot of headache and hassle.

[Flan]

What I can find is pretty vague per norm for government and the legalise itself just says a statement by a physician stating that "... the applicant's gender change is complete." is all that's needed.

(If you know this already, sorry)

[Janet_Girl]

Please contact the Social Security Administration (SSA) to change your name on SSA records before you make an appointment with DMV to have your name changed on DMV records. DMV electronically verifies your name, birth date and social security number with the SSA.

If your information does not verify, you will not receive your new California driver license or identification card. You will receive a Request for Verification of Information letter from DMV informing you that the information you provided (name, birth date, and/or SSN) does not match SSA's records.

You will be issued an interim license valid for 60 days and/or a receipt for your ID card until you receive your new photo license and/or photo ID card in the mail. Check your address before you leave DMV and tell the DMV representative if your address is incorrect. Your new license and/or ID card will be mailed to you within 60 days. If you do not receive your license and/or ID card after 60 days, call 1 (800) 777-0133 to check on the status. Have your interim license and/or ID card receipt with you to provide information when requested.

If you have changed the SSA information then you should have no problems.  Or just call the DMY and asl.

Good luck, Arch.

Janet

[tekla]

If that's true, that represents a change away from California standards to those of the Federal Government.

[Arch]

Thanks for the responses, folks. I'm still a bit in the dark, however.

Yes, Flan, I've seen something along these lines in one or two places, and I've seen a few sites that aren't even that specific--even TLC does not seem to be explicit. But I also remember seeing some kind of bulleted list that states what qualifies people for what changes with what agencies (very badly put, but I think you can figure out what I mean). I just can't remember where I saw that. And it's possible that I am misremembering.

Thanks for the info, Janet, but I changed my name years ago, so that isn't an issue. I'm only doing the gender marker change now. Or did I misunderstand your intent?

[Janet_Girl]

Based on what I read, if you have changed your gender marker with the SSA then there should not be a problem.  That would be the only snafu that I can for see.

Janet

[Arch]

Based on what I read, if you have changed your gender marker with the SSA then there should not be a problem.  That would be the only snafu that I can for see.

Janet

Whoa. I see what you're saying: if the SSA says I am male (which it now does, as of two days ago), I might not even need the DMV form. That's a thought. I will call the DMV or stand in one of their interminable lines on Monday. (Some questions are better asked in person, I've found.) Thanks.

[Janet_Girl]

No problem, Hon.  And good luck with the DMV.  Oh and take a lunch, you will need it. 

Janet

[Arch]

Well, I wanted to talk to someone at the DMV to ask whether the DL 329 form is absolutely necessary if my gender is already male with the SSA.

I drove by the DMV on my way home from therapy and saw that the line was snaking out the door. To heck with that, I thought. I went home and called their toll-free number. I had been on hold for a few minutes when an automated voice told me that it would take more than ten minutes for someone to get to my call. This recording repeated a few times--I was on the phone for at least fifteen minutes total (probably more; I didn't start keeping track until I had been waiting for quite some time). Eventually, I gave up. Monday is probably their heaviest day.

In the meantime, I knew that I would be seeing my GP on Tuesday (today). I decided to see if he would fill out the DMV paperwork. If not, I would then decide what to do.

Turns out that he was completely cool about it. He could see that I had had my top surgery, but I showed him the surgery letter anyway. He filled out the DMV form, indicated that my gender identification was complete rather than transitional, and took care of the business that I was there for originally.

This time next week, my DMV record should be updated. Then I can turn my sights to fixing my passport.

So it looks like this story will have a happy ending. Sometimes people really do surprise me. I knew my GP was cool, but I didn't know he was THAT cool. (He's also hot, but that's a different story...)

P.S. I did make a call to the TLC (Transgender Law Center). The fellow I talked to stated that in California, there is no fixed standard for what a person has to have medically done to get the gender marker permanently changed (that is, "complete") with the DMV. It all depends on your doctor and whether he or she is willing to check the "complete' box. FYI.

[Ms Jessica]

Hi Arch--
Just to answer the question (for posterity's sake):
There's nothing on the DMV website, or in their docs/legal info that I can find that says what exactly is required for gender change to be "complete". 
Exactly like what the people at TLC told you, the only requirement really is a doctor who will certify that your transition is complete.

As a note: having the SSA change your gender marker with them is NOT sufficient for the CA DMV, you do still need to fill out the separate form, or at least that is my understanding.

[GQjoey]

i'm kind of in the same boat as you Arch. my doctor gave me the referral letter stating that is was ok to change the gender marker on my license (also in CA), even though she knows I haven't had top surgery yet. i haven't went in to do it yet, so it is true you need to go through SS first? i had my name changed when I was 16 in another state, i assume it doesn't automatically change your gender marker with them? lol

[Arch]

i'm kind of in the same boat as you Arch. my doctor gave me the referral letter stating that is was ok to change the gender marker on my license (also in CA), even though she knows I haven't had top surgery yet. i haven't went in to do it yet, so it is true you need to go through SS first? i had my name changed when I was 16 in another state, i assume it doesn't automatically change your gender marker with them? lol

According to the TLC attorney, in California it all depends on what your doctor is willing to state on the DMV form. There is no surgical requirement. TLC states this on their site but never clarifies that there's no surgical requirement for ANY type of gender change--even a "complete" one--with the California DMV. And, as Jessica states, the DMV site sure doesn't say anything useful on the subject.

No surgery letter is required, but your doctor does have to fill out the DMV's DL 329 form. I did mention to the TLC attorney that I had changed my gender with the SSA, and he said that this probably wouldn't help me without the DMV's own form.

Again, this is just what I've gathered about California law only, and I'm not an attorney. I've read that some states require a doctor's letter, but I'm not sure whether they also want you to fill out a DMV form.

TLC says that if you want to change your name on your California driver's license, you must change your name with the SSA first. With gender change only, it apparently doesn't matter what order you do it in. But if you're in another state, I advise you to do as much research as possible about your own state before you make a move. I've seen a few things in my searches. I found potentially useful info on a couple of other sites. Let me know if you would like the names of those sites.

[GQjoey]

I had my name change in Minnesota, 10 years ago, I've been a California resident for about 4 years.

My dr signed off on a forum, that just says DMV and "Confidential" on the top. Gives my drivers license #, case # and all that, then states. "My professional opinion is that the person's:" Gender Idenification is..Male...then just her sig and stamp. She told me I could just go into the DMV and have no problems with it. But who knows.

[Arch]

I had my name change in Minnesota, 10 years ago, I've been a California resident for about 4 years.

My dr signed off on a forum, that just says DMV and "Confidential" on the top. Gives my drivers license #, case # and all that, then states. "My professional opinion is that the person's:" Gender Idenification is..Male...then just her sig and stamp. She told me I could just go into the DMV and have no problems with it. But who knows.

If this is the official CA DMV form, DL 329, then you apparently have what you need. But be warned: if your doctor signed the old form, DL 328, I have heard that the DMV isn't accepting those anymore.

You said earlier that your doctor gave you a referral letter--the TLC attorney gave me the impression that a letter without the DMV form probably won't fly. But maybe you can try. Or go back to your doc with the official form.

[GQjoey]

Not really sure, as about a quarter of an inch of the page she scanned is cut off. It's a legit form, but pieces were cut off in the scanner/fax. I gotta appt thursday, I'm gonna bring it in, and ask again.

[Arch]

Not really sure, as about a quarter of an inch of the page she scanned is cut off. It's a legit form, but pieces were cut off in the scanner/fax. I gotta appt thursday, I'm gonna bring it in, and ask again.

Well, take a DL 329 with you. Take two in case one gets messed up (that's what I always do in similar situations, and once it saved my ass to have an extra). I'll PM you the link to save you the trouble of looking it up yourself. And I'll include a link to the TLC commentary about the new DL 329 as well.

[Mister]

It's not.  To change your gender with the CA DMV, you need to fill out a DMV-328.  Your doctor fills out if your status is 'complete' or 'transitional.'  i was pre-op when mine was filled out as 'complete.'  it' sall about negotiating with your MD.

[Arch]

it' sall about negotiating with your MD.

Yes, this is essentially what the TLC guy was saying.

To change your gender with the CA DMV, you need to fill out a DMV-328. 

Well, it's a 329 now (new this year), but yeah. It doesn't sound like Joey's form is the DMV form--sounds more like something his doctor came up with.

[Mister]

Does this mean i'm getting old?

Arch, if I were you, I'd just flat out as your doctor to say that you're complete.  otherwise you have to get reevaluated every time you have to renew your license.

[Arch]

Does this mean i'm getting old?

I have a ten-foot pole especially for not touching questions like this one.

Arch, if I were you, I'd just flat out as your doctor to say that you're complete.  otherwise you have to get reevaluated every time you have to renew your license.

I did, and he signed it. I didn't even need the supporting documentation that I had brought along.

Unless nobody--endo, surgeon, GP--was willing to sign off, there was no way I was going to get a transitional gender change. And I would have kept working on them until somebody cracked. Then back to the DMV to set things right.

All the same, I'm glad I won't have to hammer away at anybody. But I haven't dealt with my passport yet. That's a whole new ballgame and has some special problems associated with it.