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Why Do People Get So Wrapped Up In The Bible?

Started by Julie Marie, July 30, 2009, 02:37:15 PM

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Julie Marie

It's a book written a long time ago. Many of the things written in the Bible have been proven to be wrong. The ideas prevalent at the time of the writings have evolved and are more human friendly. Why does a book written 2000 years ago carry so much weight with so many?

Okay, I know about divine intervention and I know about "you must have faith" but I just don't buy that. No one can guarantee that the people writing or translating the Bible were under divine inspiration.  No one!

There are thousands of contradictions in the Bible and there are people everywhere who interpret what the Bible says differently. If the Bible was written "by the hand of God" why so many contradictions?  Why can it be interpreted differently? If God is perfect, wouldn't He have avoided allowing contradictions?  Wouldn't he have made sure everyone understands what is written, without question?   

And all these people who go to the Bible and say "Jesus said..." are incorrect because Jesus didn't write a single word in the Bible.  It's all second or third hand accounts of his life.

Have you ever been part of a communications/listening seminar where they have one person whisper something into the ear of the person sitting next to them who then turns and does the same to the person on the other side? I did once and by the time it had gone through 12 people it wasn't even close to what it was when it started.

Ten people see the same thing happen and you get ten different accounts. 

So all these people who were writing about what they saw and heard could be well guilty of taking what they saw and heard and telling their version of it. And if you believe the man you are writing about is the son of God and what he's doing isn't quite exactly amazing, well... ::)

I'm not saying as a history book there aren't things in the Bible that are true but that doesn't mean it's imperative I live my life according to it.

I don't mean to upset anyone but when I have Bible thumpers throw verses at someone because they don't approve of them and this causes droves of people to rally behind them, then it's time to take a serious look at this book that they are using to condemn their fellow human being.

The general concept of what is written in the Bible, I believe, is good.  But I will never refer to it as a guideline on how to live my life and, more importantly, as a guideline how anyone else should live their life. 

Julie
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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finewine

QuoteHave you ever been part of a communications/listening seminar where they have one person whisper something into the ear of the person sitting next to them who then turns and does the same to the person on the other side? I did once and by the time it had gone through 12 people it wasn't even close to what it was when it started.

There are a number of different issues when it comes to the accuracy of the bible; historical accuracy, scientific accuracy and accuracy of translation.

Previously Laura Hope had asserted that the accuracy is astoundingly good (at least as far as content compared to the earliest available manuscripts) due to overwhelming consistency between multiple sources.  As the thread in question didn't hinge on the issue, it wasn't worth picking up.

Laura was reasonably correct, however there are well documented translation "mutations" and some of these are described, ironically, by various religious individuals or denominations who compete with each other over who is the most accurate.

The original documents don't exist.  We do have the dead sea scrolls covering various parts of the "old testament" with a number of other documents, all well after the approximate lifetime of Jesus (or his disciples), that claim to be reproductions of the gospels etc..

It's not possible to know how accurate the documents we do have are, as there's no "original" to compare them with.  They're broadly in agreement with each other, though.

We also know that the contextual meaning of language is mutable - just look at Chaucer to see how the intended meaning of words can drift over time.  (In fact, look how quickly modern English changes).  There are plenty of places where the exact meaning of an ancient Hebrew, Coptic or even Greek term could be subtly different - we don't have many native speakers of ancient tongues, so we rely on scholars to find consensus.  Then, of course, you have deliberate bias creeping in - KJV for example.  I believe this whole topic is covered in good detail in "Truth in Translation: Accuracy and Bias in English Translations of the New Testament " by Jason DeBuhn.

Finally, given that we seem inordinately incapable of accurately reproducing information, reports or anecdotes in the 21st century without error, despite all the technological aids at our disposal, it seems unlikely that the scriptures have not been subject to some drift over a couple of thousand years.

Anyway, how significant is this?  Surely the idea is to take the key messages to heart rather than get into pissing matches over largely semantic differences (especially as some passages most definitely need re-interpretation with a modern eye).

I imagine there'll be similar arguments in another 1000 years or so about who's got the most accurate Dungeons & Dragons manual.  That's about the same as arguing over the accuracy of scripture to my mind :)
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Julie Marie

Finewine, I just love the intelligent, articulate and non-emotional way you presented your information.  Thank you! And Nichole, your observations about the languages is spot on.

You've both proven discussions can be had about the Bible that don't lead to overly emotional or irrational debate.

But I have to ask, what would happen if some of the accounts written in the Bible happened today?


"Hey Moe! How's it going?

"Hi Don.  You wouldn't believe what happened to me the other day!

"Oh, what's that?"

"Well I went mountain climbing and I got to talk to God."

"Huh?!?

"Yeah, I talked to God."

"Did He talk back?"

"Well actually he talked to me first."

"Were you high?"

"No, no, completely sober. Anyway, there he was talking to me..."

"He appeared before you?"

"Well, not exactly. There was this bush that was on fire..."

"Did you put it out?"

"No, not that kind of fire, it was on fire but it wasn't burning up and God's voice came from there."

"So there was a bush that was on fire but it really wasn't and the voice of God was coming out of it talking to you..."

"Yeah, it was really cool and He was telling me all kinds of things I need to do to lead his people out of this land and..."

"Hey Moe. You and I have been friends for a long time. Can I suggest you keep this to yourself?"

;)Julie
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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Chaunte

Julie,

I look at the Bible as a guideline, especially the 4 Gospels.  However, you cannot let ANY single book dictate your life for you.  It removes responsibility for one's choices because you can always say, "God told me to do this because it is in the Bible!"

Exodus gives the early Hebrew Nation an origin - a starting point.  This is the same starting point we Christians have accepted as our own.  Everyone wants to know where they came from.  Any parent reading understands this by their little one asking that same question!

The Ancients had no concept of evolution, the true age of the Earth, genetics and a score of topics that are an everyday part of our lives today.  Could you imagine explaining to the Ancients the details of DNA replication?  No, they weren't ready for such information.

Unfortunately, there are far too many people who would rather point to a book, ANY book, and use that as their sole explaination for everything.  Afterall, thinking is hard work...and there is a ball game on.

It is easier to let someone or something make decisions for you than take responsibility for your own actions.  And someone telling you that "its in the Bible" has already done the hard work for you.  Why read when someone else has read it for you?  Why think when someone else has already thought it through for you?  I'll just wait for the movie - or the video game. 

Yes, i am a practicing Catholic.  Yes, Ratzinger is a jackass and I refuse to acknowledge him as pope.  Yes, I believe in God's love for all of us - even those who say they do not believe.  I believe that Jesus is with us as we come out to our families and fight for our Civil Rights.

I believe that Jesus would today stand up tothe modern day pharasies claming to speak in God's name - just as He did 2000 years ago.

That is because there is more to Scripture than simply reading words.  There is the spirit in which it was written, the times in which pen was put to paper.  And the Spirit that moves us to new understandings.

Why think when a book will do it for you?  No, that is not the way.

Rather, I ask why let a book speak for you when the Spirit is ready to work through you instead?

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MaggieB

Biblical infallibility is a central tenant in most Christian sects.

Note in this page that biblical inconsistencies are believed to be totally absent.
http://www.faithfacts.org/search-for-truth/questions-of-christians/is-the-bible-really-gods-word

Jesus is said to have indicated that the old testament is God's word. 

The protestant Bible is different than the Catholic one and that both were assembled from works existing hundreds of years after the first Christians.  Essentially, the Bible that we know today is a work of a committee.  In Jesus's time, there was no one single book.

I can see the problems with the inconsistencies in the Bible when before when I was an evangelical I could not see them.  I can see now that the rational person must take a critical attitude toward the Bible. 

Maggie
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Julie Marie

For decades the Bible, to me, was a book that sat in my desk drawer that had all the birth information for my siblings and kids. Oh yeah, and they read from it at church.

But after I came out and was awakened to the discrimination LGBT people face and how so many of our detractors fought to deny us our inalienable rights by using quotes from the Bible, very successfully I might add, I felt it imperative I focus on this ancient book that so many let dictate their lives.  And worse, used it to justify their prejudice and hatred and to spread fear.

I have no problem with the Bible and I understand it serves a wonderful purpose for so many.  What I do have a problem with is the so-called religious leaders who use the words from it to lead others to follow them in their campaign against those who are different.  When people are blindly following obviously evil leaders because they think the Bible says they should, I feel compelled to expose it for what it is, an old book written with good intentions and now abused by making wrong look right.

It's not the book, it's the people.

Julie
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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MaggieB

Quote from: Julie Marie on July 31, 2009, 11:38:35 AM

It's not the book, it's the people.

Julie


Julie,
So true and what is especially shameful is these people "Bear false witness" against us by telling lies and use deceit against us.  When I was in the church, we didn't ever do that.  Now, it seems that there are some sects that are just short of advocating violence.  I am stunned by these not so fringe groups.  It seems as we gain more acceptance, they ramp up to become more and more extremist even to the point of breaking their own morality.

Maggie
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FairyGirl


well gee sis, so much for the pitiful reply I was writing. lol But yeah, what Nichole said.  ;D

Girls rule, boys drool.
If I keep a green bough in my heart, then the singing bird will come.
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Suzy

Quote from: Julie Marie on July 31, 2009, 11:38:35 AM

But after I came out and was awakened to the discrimination LGBT people face and how so many of our detractors fought to deny us our inalienable rights by using quotes from the Bible, very successfully I might add, I felt it imperative I focus on this ancient book that so many let dictate their lives.  And worse, used it to justify their prejudice and hatred and to spread fear.
Julie


Well my dear Julie, I guess I am one of those who believe in the Book, or more accurately the One the Book points us to.  So I suppose I am one of the ones you have such a problem with.  I am very sorry for that.

Yes there are some contradictions.  Thousands?  Absolutely not.  There are a number of paradoxes, things that are difficult to understand, and require study and research.  Yes, the Bible speaks to a certain people in a certain culture.  And yes, it can be difficult separating the cultural stuff from the message behind it, but it can be done.  When this is done, I find the message amazingly consistent.  When that is not done, the results, as you know, can be disastrous.  Further, the manuscript shows a different history than you espouse.  But that is another discussion for another time.

Please accept my deepest apology for being such a horrible person.  Apparently I am the problem, not the book.

Kristi
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lisagurl

QuoteApparently I am the problem, not the book.

You are right, it is the actions taken on beliefs not the imagination of those who wrote it.
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tekla

Why do people get wrapped up in it?  Easy, when it's well written, its as good as anything else, and a few of those authors (plural) who wrote some of the books (again plural) are among the best writers ever.  Through out all time.  Just take Genesis - such mindblowing perfect writing is hard to find really:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved on the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Throughout all science and folk/mythology and various religions past and present, how many millions of words have been written down trying to explain "Well, how did we get here?"  And there, in one paragraph, is the entire whole of creation laid out.  Who cares if its true?  I don't think it was meant to be true, it was meant to explain, and it does that.

And when Jesus it talking - really Jesus talking, and not some other commentator or writer - the dude could give out the Big Slap Down, for sure.  In the original "Just take a chill pill, dude" lecture of all time, Jesus says:

Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?  Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?  And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: and yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?  Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?  (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.  But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.


The only think that lacks is one of the apostles saying "Oh SNAP!" at the end of it.

And he could read people pretty damn well too. And if not 'god' in the literal sense, he sure could read the future pretty good.

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

The rest of it, Job, the entire story of Exodus, The Beatitudes, its all pretty well written stuff that rings true to other humans.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Julie Marie

Quote from: tekla on August 01, 2009, 02:02:24 PM
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits.

Kinda makes me think about those who get people all riled up and then ask for donations. It's amazing how many of these so-called religious leaders are rolling in dough (their fruits) and "come to us" as good and decent yet preach intolerance, hatred and fear.  If that's not a wolf in sheep's clothing...

Julie
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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Lisbeth

I don't see what purpose there is in debating whether anything in the Bible scientifically or historically accurate. The book is a collection of writings by different authors that express the entire range of human emotion and experience. If you can't find something in it to spark your interest, I would have to ask, "Why?"
"Anyone who attempts to play the 'real transsexual' card should be summarily dismissed, as they are merely engaging in name calling rather than serious debate."
--Julia Serano

http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2011/09/transsexual-versus-transgender.html
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Suzy

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 01, 2009, 02:31:30 PM
Kinda makes me think about those who get people all riled up and then ask for donations. It's amazing how many of these so-called religious leaders are rolling in dough (their fruits) and "come to us" as good and decent yet preach intolerance, hatred and fear.  If that's not a wolf in sheep's clothing...
Julie


Honey, how many clergy do you know?  Sure there are a few charlatans out there.  Most, however, are anything but.  Most work very long hours helping people, sitting at hospitals, counseling at all hours, and on and on it goes.  And most clergy are just barely scraping by on the salaries they make.  Most of them work more hours and have more education than the general population.  Yet they do what they do, well knowing that it is a financial hardship to do it.  Hatred, intolerance, and fear?  I see enough in this thread that I think it is a bit on the hypocritical side to accuse others of such.

Kristi
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tekla

And most clergy are just barely scraping by on the salaries they make.  Most of them work more hours and have more education than the general population.  Yet they do what they do, well knowing that it is a financial hardship to do it.

I went to Catholic church until I moved out of the house.  Never heard a priest that wasn't asking for money.  Sure, they did a lot more.  But getting donations is part of it.

As for the rest.  Gee, I could substitute Artists for Clergy - and a bunch of other people too.  So what if they don't make as much money as other people, big deal.  There are other things that are more important.  I worked last night.  I could have made more doing a doctor's convention.  I could have made more doing other things.  So, would it have been worth it to spend 8 hours working closely with some guy who looks like Karl Rove, or does this have it's own reward?  Remember, they do pay me something for it, and life is full of other compensations.
Sucks to be me

FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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MaggieB

Quote from: Kristi on August 01, 2009, 05:47:13 PM
Honey, how many clergy do you know?  Sure there are a few charlatans out there.  Most, however, are anything but.  Most work very long hours helping people, sitting at hospitals, counseling at all hours, and on and on it goes.  And most clergy are just barely scraping by on the salaries they make.  Most of them work more hours and have more education than the general population.  Yet they do what they do, well knowing that it is a financial hardship to do it.  Hatred, intolerance, and fear?  I see enough in this thread that I think it is a bit on the hypocritical side to accuse others of such.


Hate and intolerance in this thread?  You have got to be kidding!

When I was an evangelist, I bought much of this too but as a scientist, I had major problems with Creationism and Intelligent Design.  While I still marvel at the universe and still believe that God created it, I cannot accept the literal Biblical interpretation written in Genesis. That was twenty years ago and at the time I was very active in the church.  I laid hands on the sick, prayed for others, went to a jail to sing carols, helped winterize the poor's homes and was a deacon giving lay sermons and was a choir member.
I also was in the leadership of my home church meeting with the pastor several evenings a week and led a Bible study including being a Sunday school teacher.

However, I began to find that hypocrisy was rampant in the membership. I then had a family crisis ending in divorce that resulted in my being banned from the church.  I tried to come back over and over again.  When I was homeless with my new family, they would not allow us to enter the church and sent us to the Red Cross who gave us a one way plane ticket to leave.  We ended up seeking help from another Church in California only to have our former church contact them causing them to also not help us.  We had a baby at the time. All because I was divorced. I tried to maintain my faith and have prayed for decades.  I tried in vain to pray my transsexuality away to no avail.  In spite of all that I still called myself a Christian.

I have known four ministers of the faith and all have been rigid and intolerant.  Sure they don't make much money but they believe in their view of the scripture without really trying to understand human suffering. They are quick to judgment and encourage the flock to engage in intolerance too. I know, I was in the congregation as sermons against homosexuality were being preached.  The congregation was told they were agents of Satan were attempting to take over the church.  People were nearly in a panic over it.  I admit that I was too and it fueled a decade of homophobia for me which I now see as fear of who I was.  But it was the church that instilled it in me.

If you look at the New Apostolic Reformation or the Seven Mountains Movement, you will see a group of well funded religious leaders bent on taking over the world and forcing all to become Christians.

In fact, the more evangelicals use lies and deceit against our community, the more I am driven from the faith.  It is now to the point that I am ashamed to admit my former faith and do not wish to be associated with the name "Christian"

So who now is intolerant and hateful? 

Maggie
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debisl

I for one am a believer.
It is so wrong to critize one another because of a belief. Are you not doing the exact same thing that people do to us for not being cut out of the same cookie mold as they are. We would be banished from society if it was left up to the "goodie two shoes". We would most likely be in a sort of lepar coloney. For those of us who wish to beleive in our GOD what is so wrong with that?? Answer me please. We are trying to live a good life, and we are not harming anyone by loving our creator.

Yes there are some very bad pastors,preachers,fathers out there. Just don't judge all of them in the same way. Most are beautiful people that have a desire to help their fellow man, and woman. If you don't want to beleive in God then don't. Just don't try to bring everyone else down to your level of depression if things are not going well. I believe there is a reason for everything good and bad that happens in our lives.

On this site I have met the most wonderful, beautiful, and careing person anyone could ever meet, and she might just surprise you if you got to know her. That is all I can say about her for now, but beleive me she very well may be one of Gods angels.

Please do not take any offence to anything I have said here. I do not judge, as that is left to a higher entity.

Deb
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Lisbeth

Quote from: Kristi on August 01, 2009, 05:47:13 PM
Honey, how many clergy do you know?  Sure there are a few charlatans out there.  Most, however, are anything but.  Most work very long hours helping people, sitting at hospitals, counseling at all hours, and on and on it goes.  And most clergy are just barely scraping by on the salaries they make.  Most of them work more hours and have more education than the general population.  Yet they do what they do, well knowing that it is a financial hardship to do it.  Hatred, intolerance, and fear?  I see enough in this thread that I think it is a bit on the hypocritical side to accuse others of such.

Kristi

"After John's messengers left, Jesus began to talk to the crowd about John: 'What did you go out to deserted marshes to see? The reeds blowing in the wind? No? Then what did you go out to see? A preacher dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear Armani suits and ride in limos are televangelists. So what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, surely, and more than a prophet.'"
(A paraphrase of Luke 7:24-26)
"Anyone who attempts to play the 'real transsexual' card should be summarily dismissed, as they are merely engaging in name calling rather than serious debate."
--Julia Serano

http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2011/09/transsexual-versus-transgender.html
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FairyGirl

The Bible as a book contains some definite timeless wisdom relevant to this day and some beautiful poetry. But it's a book written by men, perhaps inspired by some higher power but laid down by men nonetheless. It starts off as the history of a nomadic bandit tribe that roamed the deserts and made warfare on its neighbors, with the usual pillaging and "my god is greater than your god" nonsense so endemic to these cultures. Desert tribes tend to be monotheistic while forest tribes tend to be pantheistic, though there is evidence that the Hebrews at one time had a goddess as well in their pantheon who was outsted by the male dominated priesthood and all references to her removed from their holy books.

A lot of the blatant desert mythology and ethnocentricity can be recognized for what it is, but it also contains as I mentioned some insights as to the true nature of how reality works in a spiritual sense. The passage in Matthew 6:25-34 is an excellent example of this and one I have found rings very true. However the Bible must be read in the context of the time in which it was written, a time that spans centuries and many different cultures.

I am resolutely not going to argue with anyone about it as that is about as pointless an endeavor as one can undertake and I have better things to do with my time. If someone feels it is something more than that, then good for them. Personally I am a Goddess worshipping taoist pantheist universalist fairy pagan and my pantheon has room in it for Jesus, Mary, Sidhartha, Daphne, and even queen Titania. Everyone has the right to their own gods or goddesses or whatever. So some people say Jesus is god. So what? The more the merrier in my book. Yeah, Christians are obnoxious sometimes, but again, so what? So are communists, Americans, Jews, Republicans, and yes even us bleeding heart liberals. It's just that there's a lot of overzealous Christians running around thumping everyone over the head with their particular interpretation of bible passages, so what can we expect?

Yes, I have literally physically suffered at the hands of the fundies, but I don't blame Jesus for that. The Bible has some excellent wisdom in it, and if we dismiss all of Christianity out of hand, we're only depriving ourselves of another good source of knowledge and insight.
Girls rule, boys drool.
If I keep a green bough in my heart, then the singing bird will come.
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Alicia Marie

  I cannot speak for anyone but myself concerning the original question but the reason I get wrapped up in the Bible is because the Lord has come into my life and made himself real to me even though I am unworthy of his grace.
  There is nothing about me worthy of his atonement for my sins. I have nothing to offer him but my body, soul and spirit and to praise him as long as I have the breath of life within me.
  Many do use his word amiss to form doctrines and denominations to judge and hinder others and even others use it to get rich.
  Not all ministers do that however. There are still some decent ones out there that do care for their fellow man and do their alms in secret. That's probably why the wicked and vile are so readily seen.
  A preacher that I know believes that the word of God that points to Jesus Christ as the Lamb of atonement believes he gave his life for all. Straight, gay and trans. They need only believe. After all, the gospel is about faith in Jesus Christ.
  May God bless.
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