Nobody's Talking About the Silver Bullet That Could Heal the Economy ...

[NicholeW.]

Nobody's Talking About the Silver Bullet That Could Heal the Economy and Cure Most Social Ills
By Jeff Ritterman, M.D., AlterNet. Posted July 31, 2009.

http://www.alternet.org/workplace/141645/nobody%27s_talking_about_the_silver_bullet_that_could_heal_the_economy_and_cure_most_social_ills_/

Imagine a guidebook on formulating social policy, with instructions on how to extend life expectancy, decrease infant mortality, improve child well-being, reduce obesity, lower homicide rates, decrease school dropout rates, lower teen pregnancy, increase levels of civic trust, improve voter turnout, decrease drug abuse, lower incarceration rates, decrease rates of mental illness, and improve social mobility based on merit.

There's convincing evidence for all of this and more in The Spirit Level: Why More Equal Societies Almost Always Do Better, by Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett (Allen Lane). To learn more, go to their Web site, www.equalitytrust.org.uk.

[daisybelle]

Nobody's Talking About the Silver Bullet That Could Heal the Economy and Cure Most Social Ills
By Jeff Ritterman, M.D., AlterNet. Posted July 31, 2009.

http://www.alternet.org/workplace/141645/nobody%27s_talking_about_the_silver_bullet_that_could_heal_the_economy_and_cure_most_social_ills_/

Imagine a guidebook on formulating social policy, with instructions on how to extend life expectancy, decrease infant mortality, improve child well-being, reduce obesity, lower homicide rates, decrease school dropout rates, lower teen pregnancy, increase levels of civic trust, improve voter turnout, decrease drug abuse, lower incarceration rates, decrease rates of mental illness, and improve social mobility based on merit.

There's convincing evidence for all of this and more in The Spirit Level: Why More Equal Societies Almost Always Do Better, by Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett (Allen Lane). To learn more, go to their Web site, www.equalitytrust.org.uk.

Wasn't that called communism?  and the guide book was the "The Communist Manifesto".

In the beginning Communism seemed to the people of Russia as a
utopian ideal. The promise of the elimination of classes, of
guaranteed employment , "The creation of a comprehensive social
security and welfare system for all citizens that would end the
misery of workers once and for all."  http://www.cyberessays.com/History/105.htm

And as far as I know that the more equal Russian society did not do better.

And some reasons why these ideals would be a complete failure: http://www.cyberessays.com/History/105.htm
Daisy

[lisagurl]

There is always going to be some inequity partly due to the various attributes and deficiencies. Remember half the people have below average I.Q.   But they are correct the gap does not have to be as large. The larger the gap the more social isolation and resentment.

Some people prefer a simpler life with less others want to be always multitasking. There is room for both without frustration and violence. It it when the power gets great enough to corrupt and the weakness is low enough to fight that society starts to fall apart.

[Mina_Frostfall]

Wasn't that called communism?  and the guide book was the "The Communist Manifesto".

And as far as I know that the more equal Russian society did not do better.

And some reasons why these ideals would be a complete failure: http://www.cyberessays.com/History/105.htm
Daisy

Are you ACTUALLY calling Soviet Russia EQUAL? I wouldn't call being ruled over by a powerful elite that hordes wealth to be equality. The Communist Party replaced the church and the nobility as the elite, ruling class. Communism is something that just doesn't happen, instead you just get Fascism by a different name.

[finewine]

Communism as a philosophy and communism in practice are very different.

As for the web site in the OP, I see a lot of correlation but need to read more to understand the alleged causal analysis.  That, and the meat of the "remedies", seemed somewhat superficial at first glance but I confess I haven't had time to read thoroughly.

Take the one on obesity.  No surprises on the graph.  Thing is, there are different dietary cultures at play, not to mention the related variation of quality.   It doesn't matter how equal your income is, if all you prefer to eat energy dense crap in one country and raw fish & veg in another!

I also am unpersuaded by the "redistribution through taxes..." route, which isn't a new idea.  Most of us, if we're truly honest with ourselves, don't *want* to be equal because that feels to much like average - and comparison against our peers is a very fundamental part of our collective psyche.

No? Well from whence does competition come from?  The drive to be the best, fastest, strongest, most successful - whether it be business, sport or even an intrinsic sense of fulfillment by bettering oneself?

Orwell made the point very obvious, although apparently not obvious enough, which is that no matter how much the idea of equity sounds great (especially when you think someone *else* is doing better/getting more than you), we are not all equal. Not in talent, drive, motivation, intellect, whatever.

You don't make the comparatively poor richer by making the comparatively rich poorer.  It doesn't work, it never has...because it's not simply a *money problem*, it's far more complex than that.

[LordKAT]

I know a number of women who think themselves superior. Admittedly less than I know of men who do.

[lisagurl]

Health is an important social construct. It feels much better to be healthy than sick. You contribute more to the general good being healthy.

The question is how do you motivate people that will not take responsibility for themselves?

[Kara]

An equal society will always start with golden intentions and end in a junkyard of rust.

People do not work equally hard, people do not consume in equal measure and people do not sleep/exercise/drive/watch TV/go to school equally. As a result of these factors (as well as others) inequalities arise in society. Sometimes, inequality arises as a part of the environment a person is in. Sometimes, it arises simply from the fact that one person will pull themselves out of the gutter while another will not.

The only real way to make a truly equal society is to have everyone do everything equally. Assuming that you can't change human nature, you are basically telling someone who works hard that they will get paid as much as someone who does not work hard. Equal healthcare for all may mean that people will be healthy...or it may mean that the quality of the care will decline because the doctors are on government pensions and not getting paid as much as they could if they operated privately.

Simply put, the talent goes where the money is.

Why do you suppose Mexicans come into America to work? Because they can get paid more here, even if they're on our minimum wage.

If you could create a country where everything is equal, you'd eventually have a mass exodous where everyone left for better opportunities and the nation- if you can think of it like a person- will have its brains removed. Such a system is not necessarily called communism. That is merely the most recent example we have had.

[lisagurl]

An equal society will always start with golden intentions and end in a junkyard of rust.

People do not work equally hard, people do not consume in equal measure and people do not sleep/exercise/drive/watch TV/go to school equally. As a result of these factors (as well as others) inequalities arise in society. Sometimes, inequality arises as a part of the environment a person is in. Sometimes, it arises simply from the fact that one person will pull themselves out of the gutter while another will not.

The only real way to make a truly equal society is to have everyone do everything equally. Assuming that you can't change human nature, you are basically telling someone who works hard that they will get paid as much as someone who does not work hard. Equal healthcare for all may mean that people will be healthy...or it may mean that the quality of the care will decline because the doctors are on government pensions and not getting paid as much as they could if they operated privately.

Simply put, the talent goes where the money is.

Why do you suppose Mexicans come into America to work? Because they can get paid more here, even if they're on our minimum wage.

If you could create a country where everything is equal, you'd eventually have a mass exodous where everyone left for better opportunities and the nation- if you can think of it like a person- will have its brains removed. Such a system is not necessarily called communism. That is merely the most recent example we have had.

No one is advocating total equality.

Doctors are rewarded for selling drugs not making people healthy. Perhaps an incentive to keep people healthy would be better than, so much for an office visit.

Simply put, the talent goes where the money is.

Talent goes where the passion is.

Simply put, the talent goes where the money is.

Why do you suppose Mexicans come into America to work? Because they can get paid more here, even if they're on our minimum wage.

For freedom from thre corruption they many times work below the minimum wage and do not pay taxes.

[Kara]

I guess you could say that different immigrants work for different wages...but an equal society would necessarily breed corruption because there has to be someone to enforce that equality, which would then place the enforcers on an unequal/higher footing than everyone else.

[lisagurl]

which would then place the enforcers on an unequal/higher footing than everyone else.

There are plenty of police in jail for corruption of democratically created rules.

[Kara]

There are plenty of police in jail for corruption of democratically created rules.

It seems we are going to disagree on many things. 

I wouldn't call the system we have today "democratic." It's run by an elite group of people- the aristocracy of money- who are now at such a high remove that it's very hard to get any real change done in legislation. Of course, corruption will occur in any country...I just think enforced equality encourages it more.

[lisagurl]

It seems that Pennsylvania has more than its fair share of corruption. I wonder if apathy is the reason.

[Kara]

It seems that Pennsylvania has more than its fair share of corruption. I wonder if apathy is the reason.

Yeah, probably. That wouldn't surprise me.

[tekla]

Wasn't that called communism?  and the guide book was the "The Communist Manifesto".

Yeah, and before that it was called Christianity, and it's guide book were the 4 Gospels.

And I think the author is talking more about equity, then flat out equality.  And if you've ever had the privilege of working in an equity situation, vs a hierarchical boss/you deal, you no doubt understand that.  It's not that everyone is equal, in having the same skills, or the same stuff - it is that everyone is equally competent to be a part of the team, and in that, everyone works - not FOR someone, but together.  Everyone respects each other and listens, anyone can say anything at any time, and with a little cajoling, get their point heard.

Besides, some of the grosser examples of inequality in modern Western culture, are pretty dumb.  It's often cast as 'well they took a huge risk, blah, blah, blah' or 'what they are doing is a lot harder, yeah, right.'  If I put some sort of cap on huge salaries would everyone change jobs?  If Jerry Garcia or Carlos Santana could only make ten thousand a year more than a more menial laborer, would they toss down the axe and say, "Well, crap, I'm going to be a plumber then?"  I doubt it. Would Brittany Spears think "Well, the money is just about even so I'm going to quit being a star and become a particle physicist?"  Would Angelina Jolie quit acting and become a kindergarten teacher?

[GinaDouglas]

Nobody's talking about the Green Bullet that could heal the economy.  Legalize, tax and export marijuana.

[tekla]

Oh that's just a given.  The war on drugs is over people.  Drugs won.

[lisagurl]

Nobody's talking about the Green Bullet that could heal the economy.  Legalize, tax and export marijuana.

There is a well established underground. If the tax was not competitive with the established growers it would not be successful. Plus a lot less people get high than you think.

It would also increase health care costs.

[daisybelle]

Lastly if Comunnism was so great, why was there a mass exodus from eastern europe when the iron curtain opened.

I lived overseas at an US AFB growing up, and still have friend there.  While the Germans actaully stated, "no one wants a foreign miltiary, we would much rather it be the US than the USSR."  and years later before the fall of the iron curtain, the base was closed.  After the fall, the housing area was used to house eastern europeans and russian.  My friend stated, "The locally economy is suffering, where amercians pumped money into the economy, the new immagrants only want a handout.   Where most American were willig to learn German, most immigrants refused."

Posted by: Aelita 
Insert Quote
Quote from: daisybelle on July 31, 2009, 02:39:20 pmWasn't that called communism?  and the guide book was the "The Communist Manifesto".

And as far as I know that the more equal Russian society did not do better.

And some reasons why these ideals would be a complete failure: http://www.cyberessays.com/History/105.htm
Daisy



Are you ACTUALLY calling Soviet Russia EQUAL? I wouldn't call being ruled over by a powerful elite that hordes wealth to be equality. The Communist Party replaced the church and the nobility as the elite, ruling class. Communism is something that just doesn't happen, instead you just get Fascism by a different name.

Finally I am not calling Russia equal in any sense.   Its utopian ideals seem to start out with the best intentions, but seriously failed.

Hello, Daisy. Have to admit that it's nice to know that 50 years and more of propaganda taught in schools and given a tidal wash by pretty much everyone in USA society didn't yet all get forgotten.

Yeah, a society that treats people well is "kom-un-ist" for sure! Let's make sure, instead, that most people feel and live in desperation for years and years while a few profit and most dream of becoming one of the profiteers!

Glad to see ya!

To dream and  do nothing is absurd.  But to take a risk, make your mark on the world , become a success and have the government take more that its fair share is not right either.  What is the point of trying to benefit from risk? 

Or more to the point why should anyone study years to be a doctor if enforced equaity will only make them the same salary as a plumber or garbage man.

[tekla]

How come there are so many doctors in Cuba, despite the fact that they don't make radically more money than other people?  They make some more, but not all that much.  Maybe they feel that doing medicine is a good way to use their life and time.

And don't kid yourself honey, a good plumber makes bank.