You don't have the right to ask for pronouns until

[tekla]

Just because you can't see that a person has a migraine doesn't mean you should continue treating them as though they're up for head-banging at a heavy metal concert - on the contrary, if they said "I have a migraine, would you mind keeping the noise down and closing the curtains?", you would (I'm assuming) respect their request and do whatever to help them.

The good lord helps them whats helps themselves.  If you have a migraine, its your responsibility to find a place that has the right conditions for you, its not our responsibility to change what we are doing to suit you.

You may make requests of people, you may not make demands.  They can choose to go along, or not, at which point its up to you to decide to continue with them or not.

[Nathan.]

I disagree. If you identify as a guy and are trying to present as a guy then ask for male pronouns. Whether you pass or not makes no difference. People should respect you for who you say you are.

I agree with this, although I do understand that it would be harder for people to use the correct pronouns if you don't look like your gender.

[Julie Marie]

You may make requests of people, you may not make demands.

You can make all the demands you want. You may not get what you want but you could get a bloody nose. 

Julie

[tekla]

I meant in terms of getting what you want.  Even worse than a bloody nose, most people will just laugh hysterically in your face and do the exactly opposite with great vigor and relish when met with demands.

[icontact]

I feel I need more than one word to express my position on this.  We, as a trans "community" do (and should) address people by whatever they want, whenever they want.

As for the general public, asking someone to defy "It looks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, it must be a duck!" is a longshot.  And then being upset when people still refer to you as a duck?  C'mon!  If you want to be seen as duck/goose, then look the part.  'Til then, don't expect it.

That was a better way to put how I feel about it.

And in NO way was I implying that you should call pre-op FtMs a she, or vice versa. That's just completely disrespectful. What I do is try my best to avoid pronouns until the person in question is at least androgynous. I just don't feel quite right about calling someone who looks one gender, the complete opposite. It has nothing to do with whether you support the trans community or not.

And the migraine analogy is quite irrelevant. You can never "see" a migraine, but you can certainly see gender presentation. I'm not disputing what someone's mental gender may be, but until the outside has at least thrown away connection to birth gender, it's a bit ridiculous to switch pronouns. Of course, it's different when you are very close to the person. But as a general thing.

[Jay]

I think you have the right to ask for correct pronouns of the gender your living fulltime as.

If my opinion counts for anything.

Sarah L.

I agree it doesn't matter if you are passing or not.

Jay

[finewine]

I agree it doesn't matter if you are passing or not.

Forgive me as I know what follows isn't quite what you meant but based on what I've seen even within this forum, passing (or not) is a hugely significant issue for so many.  Why is that, if it doesn't matter?

Because presumably an appearance congruous with gender identity is important.

Let's not forget that a "man in a dress" demanding to be called "she" is actually projecting a form of gender dysphoria by proxy onto the 3rd party.  They're going to look at the incongruity and mentally think "WTF?"

They *don't* have to live with it, they're *not* trapped in the wrong body and so only a tiny minority will understand the significance of complying with the request.

If a trans-person can yearn for congruity, why expect the cisgendered to accept incongruity so readily?

[Nero]

Let's not forget that a "man in a dress" demanding to be called "she" is actually projecting a form of gender dysphoria by proxy onto the 3rd party.  They're going to look at the incongruity and mentally think "WTF?"

That seems an extreme way to put it. Could you clarify?

[Vancha]

Certainly if I could tell a person was presenting as a certain gender, I would be more than glad to address them by the pronoun in line with their chosen gender.  What I'm saying is, if there are mistakes in the family or out, you really can't blame people for calling you what they are used to, as well as by what they perceive.  Yes, perhaps unfair judgments - but that is our world.  I think, we may ask to be called whatever we want - whichever names we want, whichever titles.  But we can't always expect them to be consistent, especially in a world like ours.  I have experience with the matter, so I can easily see an MtF as female, and an FtM as male.  Regardless of whether they pass.  But our world is simply not as gender-variant as we are.

I agree that if you look like a duck and quack like a duck - expect people to think you're a duck.

[finewine]

That seems an extreme way to put it. Could you clarify?

Sure.  If one feels dysphoria due to a mismatch between mental gender identity and physical appearance, then by asking a 3rd party observer to use the pronouns aligned with ones mental gender identity, you're really asking them adopt the same mental gender representation (of the trans-person) as the trans-person.  However, they are still seeing the same mismatch with physical appearance which, I propose, is effectively "dysphoria by proxy".

[Vancha]

Sure.  If one feels dysphoria due to a mismatch between mental gender identity and physical appearance, then by asking a 3rd party observer to use the pronouns aligned with ones mental gender identity, you're really asking them adopt the same mental gender representation (of the trans-person) as the trans-person.  However, they are still seeing the same mismatch with physical appearance which, I propose, is effectively "dysphoria by proxy".

Oh, I certainly agree.  Interesting way to put it.

[Chamillion]

I feel I need more than one word to express my position on this.  We, as a trans "community" do (and should) address people by whatever they want, whenever they want.

As for the general public, asking someone to defy "It looks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, it must be a duck!" is a longshot.  And then being upset when people still refer to you as a duck?  C'mon!  If you want to be seen as duck/goose, then look the part.  'Til then, don't expect it.

I agree with this.  I still think that anyone has the right to ask for their preferred pronouns at any time, but they shouldn't expect people to get it right all the time.  That goes for anyone, but especially more for people who don't pass. 
I might've taken the original question a different way than it was intended

[Tammy Hope]

What I think would be a god middle ground, albeit hard to remember to do, is to avoid the situation where possible.

for instance, at the checkout, you don't need to call me ma'am - just don't call me sir. Find another way to phrase your platitude.

It's more difficult to avoid pronouns, sure but some effort to work around a few of them would seem an obvious solution.
Without, of course, being rude about it.

[tekla]

The blogs offer no solid answer.  So what's it to you?  Would you rather not have a job, or have me call you by the wrong word?  Your choice, but the cardboard mattress are free.

[Lutin]

We seem to be forgetting the original question - it's not a matter as to whether you can expect people to comply with your requests, but that you have the right to request X or Y in the first place. A teacher has the right to ask their students to do their homework. Whether said students do or not is another matter entirely, but the right itself nevertheless is there. So while I agree that beating people about the ears demanding X or Y will get you nowhere, and that even asking politely may not result in the response you're looking for, you still have the right to ask it.

[placeholdername]

Honestly the idea of a 'should' or 'should not' in this area is misguided.  Consider a genetic woman who is born with blatantly masculine features.  Does she not have the right to demand that she be addressed as 'she' even if first impressions would lead someone to believe that this person was male?

I don't think any of us would say that she should not have that right, and yet this isn't any different from the situation of a trans-person, if we're going by the 'born in the wrong body' way of thinking.  So for anyone who would say a trans-person who doesn't pass shouldn't have the right to request to be addressed as the gender they choose is clear case of bias.

The resolution is that thinking in terms of 'should' or 'should not' is counterproductive.  People will or won't ask to be addressed in the gender of their choice, and people may or may not use the requested pronouns.  Do whatever you want.

[Vancha]

We seem to be forgetting the original question - it's not a matter as to whether you can expect people to comply with your requests, but that you have the right to request X or Y in the first place. A teacher has the right to ask their students to do their homework. Whether said students do or not is another matter entirely, but the right itself nevertheless is there. So while I agree that beating people about the ears demanding X or Y will get you nowhere, and that even asking politely may not result in the response you're looking for, you still have the right to ask it.

While that was the original question, I think it has simply been discussed and mostly agreed upon that we have the right to request certain pronouns, but simply can't expect people to follow through.  There are more variables - such as whether we ought to give them time to adapt to it, whether asking for such a thing causes dysphoria, etcetera.  But it's generally been established that despite our right to ask for these things, they may not be given.

[Alyssa M.]

O, o, o!!

There does seems to be a bit of real-life in that perspective.

Actually, not to pick on you specifically, Nichole, but I've seen absolutely no "real-life perspective" whatsoever in this thread, just a lot of generalizations and philosophizing.

But I'm not just complaining; I'll do something about it.

Real Life Perspective #1:
I have a close friend who is trans, let's call her Amy, who transitioned a few years before I'd met her. I'm not sure when she transitioned, but people who knew her in high school describe how she used to be "that guy who insisted people call her 'she'" (or something to that effect. Given her family situation and her age, Amy couldn't do a thing towards transition -- except ask people to address her in a way that didn't make her want to kill herself. That's real life.

Real Life Perspective #2:
Me: I am slow to make decisions and skeptical of where my emotions would lead me -- I don't trust them not to change. I needed to know that I could live as a woman before I made any irrevocable decisions in my transition. That involved, for a time, living a small portion of my life presenting myself as a woman, only with some of my friends, and making it clear that it was my  desire that I ber referred to as "she." I didn't pass in the slightest, though it's slowly getting better. I was only spending a few hours a week in "girl-mode." But that's what I needed in order to make this difficult and scary decision.

--

Tekla -- there are some things worth more than a job. Like friends. Yes, even in crude monetary terms. I know that if I lose everything of tangible value -- my posessions, my savings, my job -- I still have lots of friends who will help me get back on my feet. That's easily worth more than a year's salary in any job I can imagine getting. And, as a bonus, it makes life worth living.

Finewine -- At this point in my transition, I frankly don't care if my somewhat "incongruent" appearence makes some cisgendered people uncomfortable. I have way more to worry about than whether my appearance currently seems "congruent" to you. I'm just trying to get by from day to day.

Furthermore, I have no sympathy whatsoever for people who complain about discomfort cause by someone living their life with all the dignity they can muster, but contrary to social convention, whether that be someone struggling with schizophrenia, a woman in a "man's job," a gay cousin with a partner at family gatherings, someone who is fat or otherwise judged to be unattractive, or, yes, an unpassable trans person. It's really quite simple: your responsibility as a member of human society is to treat other humans with the dignity and respect they deserve simply for being human.

How should you treat a horribly unattractive and unpassable trans person? Like a person. Everything else flows from that. I don't see how ignorance is an acceptable excuse for failure to treat anyone with the basic respect due any human being.

[tekla]

In the real world, friends and jobs are often the same deal.  I only hire my friends.  My friends always call me for work first.  Sooner or later, if you're not carrying your share of the weight, people get tired and put the weight down.

In real life, what you know only gets you in the door, who you know, get's you the job.

[Alyssa M.]

Sometimes I get the feeling that you think every thread about every issue is about aquiring money. Okay, perhaps an exaggeration, but, fine, if you want to put it that way --

Once you get that job, would you say that hating every moment you have to present yourself there as the gender you were raised, being unable to sleep at night, having panic attacks, and even trying to kill yourself are good ways of keeping the job? Some of us take our chances with making a few small linguistic requests.

I'm not transitioning because my financial advisor suggested it would be a good way to fatten up my bank account. Neither am I looking for a free ride.