Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?

[Hannah]

suggests avoiding large amounts of cardiovascular exercise...

I would go bat-crazy without daily cardiovascular exercise. The peaceful, wonderful almost spiritual experience of working it right below threshold is indescribable, and I wouldn't trade it for D cups and a meaty bubble butt, no way. I think wer'e starting to read more into the paper than we should, it's just one persons opinion based on their experience and tempered by their observations and prejudices.

[Myself]

plenty of women do cardio and even more.

The only reasonable arguments I found in the document (and I do believe they are quite reasonable) are:
* Progesterone does not start until few years after breast development (I don't know how accurate that is).
* Androgenic effects but then again, micro progesterone is available and I hoped to hear of it too.
* weight gains is obvious, not sure why it was even mentioned.
* there was an argument I have a bit of a problem with, she mentioned the average cup is B for normals girls and HRT girls, she claimed that even though the breast is the same size, the bones are not always therefore it might look bigger or smaller on some people.
The thing is, the cup is relative to the band, so 32B 36B and 34B all have different cup sizes even tough they are all called B.
As the underband gets smaller or bigger, the cap gets smaller or bigger also.

[aubrey]

The girls with the best development IMO (overall, not just the breasts) are taking P, so whether or not a study agrees with that doesn't matter to me. Saying it is useless is hilarious though being that it is naturally present in the human body. But as far as studies go I agree with the theory that P balances out most if not all of the negative effects of E dominance.

[Steffi]

In any case, the health benefits of natural progresterone are good enough

...... didn't I just link to a paper by a reputable Dr (who is also a trans person and therefore presumably sympathetic to our issues in general) the summary of which is that there is NO upside to Progesterone and given a choice even most natal femmes wouldn't have it? 

btw..... the only way to settle the issue definitively is to get a few sets of identical trans-twins and give one P and not the other.
..... can't see that happening any time soon.....

[andrea]

I do question some things about the paper, though. It mentions "progesterone" but does not specify whether the progesterone is bio-identical or a progestin. I believe there was quite a bit of bad press with progestins, like medroxyprogesterone. Incidentally, the pdf is under "Medpro-Assets", which may be a reference to the progestin medroxyprogesterone.

Another thing is that while a hypothesis was postulated regarding the (non)effect of progesterone on breast size, it does not seem to cite the doctor's own research, or specific external research. I would love to look at the papers and their findings. This will affect academic credibility of the paper, but doesn't necessarily mean that the information is necessarily inaccurate.

It should also be considered whether the findings of age/progesterone levels are generalizable across human races, since the research may have been conducted on a particular race but not others.

Of course, I am not claiming to know better than the good doctor since I am not a medical expert myself. Just pointing out a few things about the research that can be further explored.

[Myself]

My gynecologist prescribes progesterone. I will ask him for his opinion.
I used to believe it could help but now I am more convinced the other way around actually. I think the best help is getting rid of the testosterone creating couple and get rid of anti-androgens.

Progesterone would most likely not have beneficial effect on the breast size and could have a lot of negative effects on the person.

From knowing several people of different ages and knowing their regimes, I pretty much tend to believe you don't need progesterone and that progesterone can lead to weight gain and other problems.

[Dana Lane]

Here are Dr Curtis's comments on Progesterone.
I am concerned about my breast development and was considering starting to take it, but I do find his explanations and arguments against here very persuasive.
http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Medpro-Assets/Progesterone.pdf

- and I feel that his comments on Estrogen dosage are also interesting and worthy of consideration

I know this is an older post but thank you for posting this document! From this report progesterone obviously doesn't help with breast formation but one thing I really found useful was about not limiting your calories extremely. I have been trying to limit calories in hopes of getting rid of a little male tummy I have but maybe I need to just eat normal (maybe above normal for a while) to make sure my boobies has the fat they need. I have been on HRT for about 8 months so I guess I still have a ways to go.

[Myself]

Actually Muffin, a lot of what you said is only true because progesterone interferes with a lot of estrogen works.
Progesterone is semi androgenic and anti-estrogenic.

Estrogen promotes breast growth and by that can promote breast cancer.
Progesterones can restrict estrogen's work and by that halt growth and therefore stop cancer.

Some of the other things said are for when you stop producing hormones (menopause). Estrogen benefits a lot of those symptoms too.

[rejennyrated]

To be honest discussions like this are rather futile because you can't cut a person in half and give one half Progesterone and the other half none.

With the greatest respect to Dr Curtis, who I'm sure has excellent credentials, a lot of what he said simply doesn't ring true in my experience. I've take P virtually all ofmy adult life, and for example, contrary to what he suggests, I find that if anything it improves my mood. I do have excellent development, but whether that would have happened anyway is impossible to prove one way or the other.

So I personally think that this is a rather individual decision for the individual endocrinologist and the individual patient to make on a person by person basis. I wish that everyone, including Dr Curtis, would stop trying to produce and impose a set of one size fits all rules because it simply doesn't help!

[Dana Lane]

Post Merge: February 15, 2010, 07:31:05 AM
*cough*

I hope you don't have a cold! I suggest you eat some pie.

[Cindy Stephens]

Please note; some people swear by "natural" vrs synthetic forms of progesterone.  That is their prerogative.  I have trouble jumping on any band wagon.  It certainly seems odd to see that list of supposed "benefits" from natural progesterone. It somehow smacks of snake oil, general tonics, and amazing elixirs.  Why we could probably solve the health insurance crises if we all just started taking it!  The truth is that most people on progesterones are on the synthetic types.  So whenever a large study is done, it is based on synthetics. I still believe that the following quote from the official Prometrium web site is telling.
             "Unlike PROMETRIUM®, synthetic (man-made) progestins have chemical structures that are different from progesterone. In the image below, you can see how certain progestins are structurally different from your body's natural progesterone.
The clinical significance of this difference has not been determined. "
The quotes are mine.  The official Prometrium story doesn't seem to suggest any benefit!
I remember when Silicone breast implants were killing every woman in America.  Horror stories on Opra. HUGE lawsuits and teary eyed death bed statements.  Then it was shown that when you actually look at the numbers and statistics, they aren't any different whether or not your have or had silicone breast implants.  Just a scary bandwagon that everyone jumped on. Sorry, I just have a problem when people present personnel opinions as facts.

[tatiana]

I like Progesterone for the reasons stated on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormone_replacement_therapy_%28male-to-female%29

There are many reasons to take Progesterone. I like its benefits and the benefits seem to outweigh the risks for my body. YMMV!

*^_________________________^;;*

Totoro Smile!

[Dana Lane]

I like Progesterone for the reasons stated on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormone_replacement_therapy_%28male-to-female%29

There are many reasons to take Progesterone. I like its benefits and the benefits seem to outweigh the risks for my body. YMMV!

*^_________________________^;;*

Totoro Smile!

I am going to talk with my doctor about this soon. There do seem to be a lot of benefits listed there!
Post Merge: February 18, 2010, 12:09:37 PM
btw, here is something else I found. The site is down but the cache is still available.

http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:EEa0XHH-BTcJ:www.t-vox.org/index.php%3Ftitle%3DHormones_:_Urban_Legends+Progestogens+mtf&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Urban Legend #5: You don't need progesterone (MTF)

The Particulars
Many endocrinologists feel that an exogenous Progestogen is not a necessary for optimal MTF HRT.

The Truth
It is hardly groundbreaking to observe that progesterone plays an important role in natal-female breast development. Why would this not also apply to MTFs?

A study published in The American Journal Of Surgical Pathology (Am J Surg Pathol. 2000 Jan;24(1):74-80.) strongly suggest it does. The study involved comparing breast tissue from 14 MTFs undergoing HRT to that of two natal-males who had been chemically castrated as part of cancer treatment. Distinct histologic differences were found --

[...]Only in male-to-female transsexuals in whom progestative chemical castration is combined with feminising estrogen therapy will full acini and lobular formation occur. Hence, combined progestative anti-androgens and estrogens is necessary for the genetically male breast to mimic the natural histology of the female breast.[...]

Note that by 'progestative anti-androgens' they mean Cyprotone Acetate specifically, which is generally considered a relatively weak Progestogen (though a strong anti-androgen). Also note that the sample sizes were not what you'd call impressive. However, the study's results are hardly shocking, given that Progesterone is generally considered to be responsible for, among other things, lobular formation in the breast. They basically found what one would expect to find, that certain breast structures do not develop, or develop only poorly, in the absence of a Progestogen.
How important all of this is to optimal feminisation remains unclear and likely varies from individual to individual. What is clear is that Progestogens do play an important part in, among other things, proper breast development. Given that, and the lack of any compelling reason not to use them, it seems clear that a Progestogen should be a part of any optimal MTF HRT regimen.

[aurora17]

I'm taking micronized progesterone every day. The rules of this forum are not to give exact doses (a stupid rule which makes no sense at all IMHO, but anyway...), but I can probably disclose that the dose is in the range "pregnant woman level", confirmed by my blood analysis.
I'm also taking cyproterone acetate in just enough large quantity to nullify (litteraly) my testosterone levels, and weekly IM injections of estradiol valerate (to a healthy, but in no way exagerated, dose).
My breasts are developing at a normal speed. And by normal, I mean, consistent with the growth speed of the breast of any natal woman. Only, the nipples too are developing quite nicely, no "mound on a mound" or "tubular breast" effect here, I get the normal looking appearance you might expect from a natal woman my age.
Bonus: although I'm losing weight, my breast size does not decrease. My mother says it's likelybecause it's mostly mammary gland. I tend to disagree a bit, knowing that breasts are mostly body fat lumps, but she is probably right, in that I can feel my boobs are not just mere fat accumulation.
So, as far as I'm concerned, among other benefits (on mood, health, etc) progesterone is promoting mormal mammary gland development, as opposed to estradiol alone which is, in my view, is doing only half the job.

[Dana Lane]

I'm taking micronized progesterone every day. The rules of this forum are not to give exact doses (a stupid rule which makes no sense at all IMHO, but anyway...), but I can probably disclose that the dose is in the range "pregnant woman level", confirmed by my blood analysis.
I'm also taking cyproterone acetate in just enough large quantity to nullify (litteraly) my testosterone levels, and weekly IM injections of estradiol valerate (to a healthy, but in no way exagerated, dose).
My breasts are developing at a normal speed. And by normal, I mean, consistent with the growth speed of the breast of any natal woman. Only, the nipples too are developing quite nicely, no "mound on a mound" or "tubular breast" effect here, I get the normal looking appearance you might expect from a natal woman my age.
Bonus: although I'm losing weight, my breast size does not decrease. My mother says it's likelybecause it's mostly mammary gland. I tend to disagree a bit, knowing that breasts are mostly body fat lumps, but she is probably right, in that I can feel my boobs are not just mere fat accumulation.
So, as far as I'm concerned, among other benefits (on mood, health, etc) progesterone is promoting mormal mammary gland development, as opposed to estradiol alone which is, in my view, is doing only half the job.

Thanks for sharing this information! And I kind of understand what you mean about the dosage ban. The information is all over the place so anyone wanting to self medicate can find the information but to me it would be helpful if dosages could be discussed due to the fact it may help someone find out they have a stupid doctor who is either under medicating or over medicating. Who knows, maybe one day!

[Flan]

until the meds that make up HRT are over the counter in most of the world, (read: the US) the "no doses" rule will remain to cover (Susan's) ass legally. (people will blame anyone to get jackpot justice these days)

[Dana Lane]

until the meds that make up HRT are over the counter in most of the world, (read: the US) the "no doses" rule will remain to cover (Susan's) ass legally. (people will blame anyone to get jackpot justice these days)

I am all for covering Susan's ass!

[Janet_Girl]

Ladies,
I will take this time to remind everyone as to the rules regarding HRT and a couple of others.

2. Any attempts to stage protests, dispute the site policy, the TOS/rules, or actions of the staff; in the public areas of this site will not be tolerated and will result in your removal. If you have issues I suggest you contact susan@susans.org and not bring your issues into the public spaces on this website. For the proper way to raise issues see term #20 below.

8. The discussion of hormone replacement therapy(HRT) and it's medications are permitted, with the following limitations:

A. Advocating for or against a specific medication or combinations of medications for personal gain is strictly prohibited.
B. Discussing the means to acquire HRT medications without a prescription, and self medication without a doctors care is prohibited.
C. Discussing dosages is strongly discouraged to prevent information obtained on this site from being used to self medicate.

We can not in good conscience condone the self administering of these medications. Not only may self medication be illegal, but HRT medications can cause serious health problems, and many have the potential for life-threatening side effects that can only be detected and prevented with proper medical supervision.

20. The staff of this site exist to provide support to our members and visitors and to provide a safe environment by enforcing the TOS and rules of this web site and chat server. If you disagree with their actions or in regards to a specific situation feel free to contact Susan at her email address susan@susans.org with the details of the situation. She will review your complaint and take any corrective action that may be required by the situation. All user complaints and issues are taken seriously and investigated thoroughly.

Yes the net has all kinds of DIY HRT, but it can and does take lives.  That is why we don't do it.  We do not wish anyone to take steps that cost lives.

[V M]

Agree, disagree or be indifferent...The site rules are there for a reason

I for one am very thankful that a FREE site such as this one exists and will gladly do my best to follow the given rules as best as possible

[girl_ashley]

*saving thread for offline viewing before it gets taken down*