I still look like a woman

[Nero]

thanks for the encouragement, guys and girls. this in between stage is creeping me out. i see peole looking at me weird.

[Mister]

The inbetween sucks in such extreme magnitudes that words cannot do it justice.  My advice?  Look forward to each and every shot, each and every change and the day when the scale finally tips and try to forget about today, tomorrow, and next week.

[Janet_Girl]

What are older sisters and your buds for.  Hang in there Big Guy.

Big Sister

Janet

[Ms.Behavin]

I came across a photo of me today at about 4-5 months on E.  Oh lord I looked BAD back then.  really bad.  The changes take time and really take a year to see major changes. We all want it now, I know I did, but it does take time for the body to shift.  Your doing well so hang in there.

Beni 

[Julie Marie]

That may possibly work for some people who just need one thing to tip them in the male category but again, it's kind of insulting to suggest that someone this doesn't work for isn't using the right 'mindset.' A person can be 'thinking ' as male as they want, and that's not going to alter people's corneas.
Not to mention that someone who is clearly an adult is going to have a more difficult time passing as a prepubescent boy which is what most pre and early T guys pass as.

There are things we pick up on subconsciously that are taught to us over the years.  Someone who is not of legal drinking age but looks old enough to buy may can walk into a liquor store and pick up a six pack without being carded if they are confident they pass as being of legal age.  However, if someone looks away, acts nervous, can't keep eye contact, they'll get carded.

When I was 39 I decided to try this out.  I hadn't been carded in years.  As soon as I walked up to the register I looked down, fidgeted and acted like I had no confidence.  The guy immediately asked for my ID.  Of course, I was elated but I was also surprised how easy it was.

I pass now (as female, not being under 21 ) not because I look typically female but because I have no worries about how I'm gendered.  And because I'm confident I don't give them any reason to question themselves and therefore take a closer look at me.  And I believe anyone taking a close look will clock me.

The thing is, this takes time and you have to have successes.  When someone approaches you and you see beard shadow you will immediately gender them male.  If they have boobs you'll gender them female.  And when either speaks you will gender them by their voice.  We all do this in a couple of seconds.  Know what you have and make it work for you.

Loren Cameron is very lean and well toned.  He's bald and has facial hair.  Even though he is pretty small, no one would gender him female because he accentuates his male qualities.  That's an important step to getting some of those successes that will lead to gaining confidence. 

The other thing to do is avoid is going overboard.  When I used to get all girlied up I had the hardest time passing.  Now I'm a t-shirt & shorts girl and I never see the funny looks.  I accentuate my boobs, eliminate any sign of facial hair and throw on some light makeup and I blend in with all the other women.  Put me in a dress and heels and I'd probably get some funny looks.

Keep positive, be patient and let the T do its magic.  In the meantime accentuate your male stuff and see what works best. Remember, it takes a while to transition, at least two years.  So don't get discouraged! 

Julie

[myles]

There is a guy who has a one year montage on youtube, I think it's Audin33 and he definitely cahnged more at teh end of the year. I just keep watching it when I get discouraged. This inbetween is not the best place to be for sure!
Myles

[Nero]

to all touting this 'mind over matter' stuff, I appreciate the sentiment, i really do. but really, a genetic guy doesn't get ma'amed when he has a bad day. a genetic girl doesn't get sirred if she thinks she looks unfeminine that day.
men and women have a multitude of physical characteristics, some of which our eyes are trained to see that we don't even think about. if enough of them fall into the male category, that person is gendered male and vice versa. and a person's gendered appearance is based more on being 'not male' than being female. not to mention people are ma'amed or sirred often before having much of an opportunity to interact as male or female.
if i think i'm the queen of england, do people see a crown on my head?

[petzjazz]

to all touting this 'mind over matter' stuff, I appreciate the sentiment, i really do. but really, a genetic guy doesn't get ma'amed when he has a bad day. a genetic girl doesn't get sirred if she thinks she looks unfeminine that day.
men and women have a multitude of physical characteristics, some of which our eyes are trained to see that we don't even think about. if enough of them fall into the male category, that person is gendered male and vice versa. and a person's gendered appearance is based more on being 'not male' than being female. not to mention people are ma'amed or sirred often before having much of an opportunity to interact as male or female.
if i think i'm the queen of england, do people see a crown on my head?

The most hopeless cause in the world is to try to directly change someone's opinion, so getting those believers in the "mind over matter" passing theory to rescind their advice is a lost cause. As someone who already agrees with you, I recommend you let the matter drop. You know that you don't at present have the physical features necessary to pass and that no amount of "believing in yourself" will change that, so be patient and let the T work its spell. It oftens happens with FTMs that at a certain point they abruptly begin to pass regularly - a transguy might not pass at all at week 11 but suddenly be sirred everywhere at week 12. It probably has something to do with the abrupt way some transguys' voices drop. It happened that way to me, and it could to you any day now.

[Mister]

Yes, that mind over matter thing is complete BS.  It's not likely to help you pass, but exuding more confidence may be key in being respected.  There seem to be many members of this forum who confuse the two.

[Nero]

The most hopeless cause in the world is to try to directly change someone's opinion, so getting those believers in the "mind over matter" passing theory to rescind their advice is a lost cause. As someone who already agrees with you, I recommend you let the matter drop. You know that you don't at present have the physical features necessary to pass and that no amount of "believing in yourself" will change that, so be patient and let the T work its spell. It oftens happens with FTMs that at a certain point they abruptly begin to pass regularly - a transguy might not pass at all at week 11 but suddenly be sirred everywhere at week 12. It probably has something to do with the abrupt way some transguys' voices drop. It happened that way to me, and it could to you any day now.

yeah, i tend to be a bit touchy about the whole passing issue. I've been out and transitioning for over 3 years and unable to go on T until just this year. during those 3 years, i tried everything I could think of, but no combination of haircut, clothes, or attitude would cut it. couldn't really move forward.

well, the voice has dropped some, but still female, so hope you're right and it will drop more soon.

[Janet_Girl]

Changes will happen through out your life.  And who knows you may have one of those deep base voices that booms out.

Janet

[heatherrose]

one of those deep base voices that booms out.

Oh Yea One of those voices
that just makes me wanna....
oh, never mind

I believe in the mind over matter principle, by the way.
I don't mind, so it doesn't matter.   

[Buffy]

Just remember Nero, what you see in the mirror is immaterial in the long run, you are biased in your views.

Perception is everything and one of the things I had to learn during transition is that others may percieve you as male whereas you percieve yourself as female (on looks alone).

Even as the outside world starts to see that man emerge, you may not see that, but remember that its what other people perceive and not you.

Buffy

[Buddhas Camera]

thanks for the encouragement, guys and girls. this in between stage is creeping me out. i see peole looking at me weird.

People looking at you weird is the stage just before passing, so that is a good sign.
I hated that stage, too.  In WalMart, I clearly would CREEP people out at the checkout.  I wasn't especially "beautiful" at all before my T, but I also wasn't used to that response from people.

I pass easily all the time now, at over 2.5 yrs on T.  Now it stresses people if they didn't know I have transgender history, to tell them that I was female.  They can get really thrown by that, which has also been stressful at times, albeit a stress i prefer to not passing.

I don't always pass on the phone still, though.

I have to say the worst part of transitioning was that inbetween time, when people were creeped out by me, some of them, and i was so eager to be further along, and so worried i might never "pass".  I was dealing with a lot of brain changes from the T that also, looking back, made it harder to process thoughts for awhile, as the way I processed thought was changing.  Someone told me it was okay to just stay home more for awhile, if I was getting too stressed being in public.  Someone else told me to just try to have more patience, that's why this is called a transition, it's not a black and white change.  Both were wise, and helpful views.

I suggest trying for patience, and being really gentle with yourself.  Either you will pass someday, or you won't.  Most ftms end up passing, I think, within a few years.  It is likely you will gather more patience and inner resources during this time, And, the bonus is that your brain changes will eventually stabilize, so you will be feeling more strong internally to deal with whatever the public sees.

It's okay to hate this time, if that's your truth.  Just take care of yourself.  Sometimes, it's important to have people around giving you compassion.  this is not always an easy path, but it saved my life to walk it.

Blessings.
Joseph

[Jamie-o]

Hi Nero,
It's been said already, but you  really haven't been on T for long and it does take time.  You see yourself in the mirror every day, as such, any changes that do occur you may not even notice. 

There's some real truth in this.  I was complaining to my doctor, when I went in to have my levels checked, about my voice not dropping very much, and he said, "Well, I can definitely hear a difference.  It's the same thing as when I see people's babies.  They don't notice how much the child has grown, because they're with him every day.  But for me it's like, 'Wow!  He's gotten so big!'"

[GamerJames]

The most hopeless cause in the world is to try to directly change someone's opinion, so getting those believers in the "mind over matter" passing theory to rescind their advice is a lost cause. As someone who already agrees with you, I recommend you let the matter drop. You know that you don't at present have the physical features necessary to pass and that no amount of "believing in yourself" will change that, so be patient and let the T work its spell. It oftens happens with FTMs that at a certain point they abruptly begin to pass regularly - a transguy might not pass at all at week 11 but suddenly be sirred everywhere at week 12. It probably has something to do with the abrupt way some transguys' voices drop. It happened that way to me, and it could to you any day now.

As one of the people who was suggesting that it could be how he viewed himself, I'd like to respond to this ^.

I did actually reconsider my viewpoint once I had heard more. I apologized to Nero for my assumptions in a PM, and I realized that I had learned something. Yes, I think that Mister has a point that I was confusing that with confidence (although I can only speak for myself, and not the others who feel/felt that way).

The reason I'm explaining this here, is that I think it's important for us all to remember that the discussions on these boards are a great place to talk about different topics, learn about each others' experiences, and form or change our opinions based on what we read here and how we process it. I feel that saying "The most hopeless cause in the world is to try to directly change someone's opinion, so getting those believers in the 'mind over matter' passing theory to rescind their advice is a lost cause." is a little bit limiting to what we can and do accomplish here.

If you're referring to something as innate as someone's faith or value systems, then yes, maybe trying to change their mind is going to be hopeless (although, it does still happen at time). But when it comes to a place like this where most of us are simultaneously looking for answers, and testing out the answers we feel we have, then I think we should be more positive about continuing open discussion instead of just writing it off as a "lost cause". Maybe I'm not the only one who's mind was changed, or at least their viewpoint maybe expanded to include other possibilities?

That being said, I'm not trying to come down on you personally petzjazz, just hoping that as a group we can consider this place to be "safe" for experimenting with different theories, and we can admit when we've learned something or grown from what others have said. Isn't that the whole point of a support forum?

[tekla]

So how much of what you see in a mirror is a reflection of reality, and how much of it is a reflection of your own mind?

How much of what we look like is a mere physical representation, and how much of it is what we are bringing out of ourselves that is also reflected in that?

Transition is not not an end unto itself, but only a beginning to get you on the road to where you want to be, dream about being, and think you ought to be.

So, what is it that you want to see when you look into the mirror?  What is it that being male or female would give you that you didn't have in the first place?  Where is it you want to be, and who is that person who is doing that thing? 

Failure at one thing does not presuppose that you would be successful at its opposite, something lots of people find out the hard way.  So what is it you want to see looking back at you from that mirror?

And the sports and mechanics stuff is largely crap, the real male deals are power plays: law, finance, and politics.  Sports are only for people with no real access to the important stuff.  The only people a sports score should matter to are those that are being paid to play the game, and only for that reason.  And mechanics is an aptitude not a gendered deal.

[Nero]

As one of the people who was suggesting that it could be how he viewed himself, I'd like to respond to this ^.

I did actually reconsider my viewpoint once I had heard more. I apologized to Nero for my assumptions in a PM, and I realized that I had learned something. Yes, I think that Mister has a point that I was confusing that with confidence (although I can only speak for myself, and not the others who feel/felt that way).

The reason I'm explaining this here, is that I think it's important for us all to remember that the discussions on these boards are a great place to talk about different topics, learn about each others' experiences, and form or change our opinions based on what we read here and how we process it. I feel that saying "The most hopeless cause in the world is to try to directly change someone's opinion, so getting those believers in the 'mind over matter' passing theory to rescind their advice is a lost cause." is a little bit limiting to what we can and do accomplish here.

If you're referring to something as innate as someone's faith or value systems, then yes, maybe trying to change their mind is going to be hopeless (although, it does still happen at time). But when it comes to a place like this where most of us are simultaneously looking for answers, and testing out the answers we feel we have, then I think we should be more positive about continuing open discussion instead of just writing it off as a "lost cause". Maybe I'm not the only one who's mind was changed, or at least their viewpoint maybe expanded to include other possibilities?

That being said, I'm not trying to come down on you personally petzjazz, just hoping that as a group we can consider this place to be "safe" for experimenting with different theories, and we can admit when we've learned something or grown from what others have said. Isn't that the whole point of a support forum?

hey James.
I don't mind other viewpoints or suggestions at all. I just think we have to be careful not to assume what works for us will work for others.

[GamerJames]

hey James.
I don't mind other viewpoints or suggestions at all. I just think we have to be careful not to assume what works for us will work for others.

Yeah, I didn't think you mind the viewpoints and stuff. I just wanted to comment that we should all keep an open dialogue about this, and other topics, instead of saying "lost cause, they'll never get it" and sticking to opposite sides of the proverbial playing field. Maybe I'm an idealist, but I want us all to be able to say "hey, I never saw it that way, thanks for your input" and I think some of us do, but some are more apt to say "that person sees it differently than I do and will never change".

In a way I was defending my right to change my opinion, and I was also saying "let's all play nice kids". Sorry, it's the parent in me... Can't shut him up. lol

[Nero]

So how much of what you see in a mirror is a reflection of reality, and how much of it is a reflection of your own mind?

I don't know. It is very hard to see oneself accurately when we're so used to the same reflection always saying the same thing. 

How much of what we look like is a mere physical representation, and how much of it is what we are bringing out of ourselves that is also reflected in that?

Hard to say. We may convince people we're more attractive than we are by exuding confidence or other more fluid attributes but I don't believe confidence or self belief can defy 20/20 vision in terms of gender.

So, what is it that you want to see when you look into the mirror? 

Somebody who isn't mistaken for female. I'm already vastly pleased with the changes so far. I just want others to see me as I see me.

What is it that being male or female would give you that you didn't have in the first place? 

Comfort in my body. Comfort from dysphoria. The knowing that I am being as true to myself as I can be.

Where is it you want to be, and who is that person who is doing that thing? 

Someone healthy, free of illness and dysphoria, and working toward a better life.

Failure at one thing does not presuppose that you would be successful at its opposite, something lots of people find out the hard way.  So what is it you want to see looking back at you from that mirror?

Again, this is really not about deciding being the other gender is better or easier or anything like that. My transition is about being true to something deep inside, something that transcends gender roles and regulations altogether. It's about my body and how it doesn't fit and the inauthenticity I feel living as female. It's not even about masculinity - as I could basically be however I wanted as a female. It's not really something that lends easily to words.

And the sports and mechanics stuff is largely crap, the real male deals are power plays: law, finance, and politics.  Sports are only for people with no real access to the important stuff.  The only people a sports score should matter to are those that are being paid to play the game, and only for that reason.  And mechanics is an aptitude not a gendered deal.

I'm afraid as soon as i'm seen as male, I'll be expected to recite the latest scoreboard in every casual encounter.