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Intelligence and transgender

Started by Deanna_Renee, August 19, 2009, 12:05:41 AM

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How would you define your intelligence?

MtF - highly intelligent (Mensa range)
29 (33%)
MtF - above average
22 (25%)
MtF - average
5 (5.7%)
MtF - below average
0 (0%)
FtM - highly intelligent (Mensa range)
9 (10.2%)
FtM - above average
4 (4.5%)
FtM - average
5 (5.7%)
FtM - below average
1 (1.1%)
Androgyne - highly intelligent (Mensa range)
4 (4.5%)
Androgyne - above average
4 (4.5%)
Androgyne - average
0 (0%)
Androgyne - below average
1 (1.1%)
none of the above
4 (4.5%)

Total Members Voted: 50

Deanna_Renee

I am trying to determine if there is some correlation between transgendered people and intelligence. In reading studies about the possible genetic explanations for transgender people, there is some indication that there is a developmental difference in the formation of the brain in the transgendered. There seem to be certain regions in the brain that connect the two hemispheres providing a kind of duality that non-trans people lack.

I have noticed that among the people I have interacted with here, there seems to be a distinct tendency for above average intelligence. I don't know if there is a scientific correlation (or even any studies) bearing out this hypothesis, but I am just curious - it could explain a lot to me. Personally, I am somewhere between 1 & 2 (just short of Mensa).

Comments?

Deanna
  •  

tekla

I'm really ->-bleeped-<-ing stupid and proud of it. Which, oddly enough, isn't even an option.

Really, your asking for a self-assessment, outside of the real mental midgets like myself, who is not going to overestimate that?  And I mean, really, really, overestimate it?  And the average IQ of people on BBs is high because the real morons are over doing WoW.

Oh yeah, in 10 years teaching at a major university, no one was ever as dumb as the ones who prefixed their conversations with "I'm in MENSA" since such tests - at best - only describe aptitude and not ability, which, as it turns out, are two different things.  All such things test, are the ability to do well on tests.

Or, as the very famous - and also dumb - American Philosopher, Yogi Berra said:
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

Flan

I voted for above average, although the kicker with "above average intelligence" is the notion that it's correlated with a big "IQ" number, (mine is 130) which is kinda dumb considering that one can't place overall intelligence into a number, rather then a description of knowledge that a person may or may not have.
Soft kitty, warm kitty, little ball of fur. Happy kitty, sleepy kitty, purr, purr, purr.
  •  

tekla

I'd always try to correlate "I'm intelligent" with either a) How much money do you make (cause I know some real idiots - American Idiots even - who make piles of it, or b) How happy are you?  Because what's being smart worth if you can't figure out a simple question like, "Gee, how can I be happy?"

Unless ignorance really is bliss, and genius is really pain.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

heatherrose




This is kind of like
telling someone, "I'm humble."

;)



"I have always wanted to have a neighbor just like you,
I've always wanted to live in a neighborhood with you.

So let's make the most of this beautiful day,
Since we're together, we might as well say,
Would you be mine?
Could you be mine?
Won't you be my neighbor?" - Fred Rogers
  •  

tekla

Nah, its more like trying to tell people how awesomely humble you are, and fantastically modest too.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

heatherrose




If you were either, would you even
acknowledge someone pointing it out?



"I have always wanted to have a neighbor just like you,
I've always wanted to live in a neighborhood with you.

So let's make the most of this beautiful day,
Since we're together, we might as well say,
Would you be mine?
Could you be mine?
Won't you be my neighbor?" - Fred Rogers
  •  

VeryGnawty

Quote from: tekla on August 19, 2009, 12:20:08 AM
Nah, its more like trying to tell people how awesomely humble you are, and fantastically modest too.

I'm amazingly gargantuanly non-humble.

I hope that helps.
"The cake is a lie."
  •  

Deanna_Renee

I know full well that intelligence (IQ, Mensa, etc) has to do with the ability to solve problems (logic/pattern based problems) and has little if anything to do with knowledge, being 'smart', common sense, reason or any of a lot of measuring devices used in our 'enlightened' society.

I am more interested, in this specific case, with general intelligence from an honest perspective. I don't really care about IQ numbers - I don't even know mine, they wouldn't release that info to me (BS). It was just something that I found to be intriguing that there are some apparent similarities between high IQ brain dualities and transgendered brain dualities. I don't know if the dualities are within the same regions of the brain or even if I am remembering papers correctly at this point.

Deanna

I'm honestly not even sure where humility factors in. (I can be quite ignorant in certain ways)
  •  

Ellieka

I chose Mensa level. I mean, shoot! Down at the Mensa institution they told me I was certifiable... wait They misspelled Mensa! It's M-E-N-S-A not M-E-N-T-A-L . Those idiots.... :laugh:
  •  

tekla

And has little if anything to do with knowledge, being 'smart', common sense, reason or any of a lot of measuring devices used in our 'enlightened' society being able to do anything.

TFIFY
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

Cindy

Reminds me of a survey by one of the automobile clubs in Australia. Had three choices: are you an average driver, below average or above average? 80% of people were above average :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Cindy
  •  

V M

I've been tested to have a high IQ, but often I feel rather dumb.

Everyone has their talents. Maybe it's just part of being human.

I'm not perfect, don't know anyone who is.

Both my creative and analytical hemispheres are active most of the time
The main things to remember in life are Love, Kindness, Understanding and Respect - Always make forward progress

Superficial fanny kissing friends are a dime a dozen, a TRUE FRIEND however is PRICELESS


- V M
  •  

Miniar

Self assessments of intelligence are unreliable at best.
My IQ has been tested, but I don't think that's really reliable either.
None the less, I chose above average.
It's an unreliable opinion.



"Everyone who has ever built anywhere a new heaven first found the power thereto in his own hell" - Nietzsche
  •  

Deanna_Renee

Quote from: tekla on August 19, 2009, 02:13:55 AM
And has little if anything to do with knowledge, being 'smart', common sense, reason or any of a lot of measuring devices used in our 'enlightened' society being able to do anything.

TFIFY

Tekla, I guess that would have been an easier way to write it - same meaning  :D

Cami, Cindy - LMAO

Virginia - I too have tested high and frequently had people (who supposedly would know such things) call me a genius - to which my response was always an adamant denial of the fact. I knew I was not anywhere near as 'smart' as many of the 'normal' people in my life. Of course that was before I learned that a high IQ has nothing to do with (in Tekla's words) being able to do anything. Once I discovered that it meant I could recognize patterns in what would appear randomness in less 'intelligent' people, I was like, oh, that's kind of useless, so yeah it could be right.

Miniar - I have known a lot of 'geniuses' in my life and reliability is not something they are typically well known for. Especially if you are relying on them to be somewhere, or carry on a conversation, or do anything that normal people would do.

Thank you all for your participation in this thoroughly uselessly unscientific poll that will accomplish little else than some fun conversations. Feel free to talk amongst yourselves.

Deanna
  •  

Janet_Girl

Although I checked 'Average', having never been tested, I think that I am quite intelligent. Or maybe it is just opinionated.  ;D

Most people believe that they are ether above average or extremely intelligent.  But in reality they have no common sense, just relying on their education to be their example of intelligence.  They have no 'street' smarts and can not see that they are just 'book' smart.  I would rather have 'street' smarts than all th ' book' learning it the world.


Janet
  •  

tekla

Its all so very relative you know.  So many ways of measuring it, charting it, so many different mileposts to assess progress by that I guess you have to start out with something more than just 'intelligence' or even a difference between 'book smarts' and 'street smarts' because I don't even think those things are specific and exact enough.

One example.  Often, and in here frequently, some people are dismissed as 'dumb jocks.'  OK, perhaps.  But on the other hand, have you ever seen an NFL playbook?  They are 3 inch 3 ring binders, sometimes more than one.  You have to know exactly what you are supposed to do, what the guys around you are doing, and what the general plan is for each and every play, and you're not going to get much time to think about it, it has to be perfect instant recall memory or NFL is going to stand for Not For Long.  At the major sports university I worked at I did sideline stats for the football team.  The last few years I was there they ran a modified West Coast Offense.  That offense had over 60 different combinations of passing routes (drove me nuts).  I asked once why they described it as 'modified' and Coach told me, "A real NFL West Coast Offense would have twice the number of passing route combinations."  So, dumb?  Perhaps not in all ways.  Oh sure, its not rocket science, but when you think about it, rocket science only has two combinations, thrust and trajectory - so perhaps its harder than rocket science.

And its easy for people without formal education to denounce it as so much book stuff, but the people I worked with when I was at DoE and DoD had piles of degrees and they were very smart people, and in the case of the military usually very good 'people' persons also.  DoE, well, not so much on the social skills sometimes, but the physics was whip smart. And our DoE National Energy Lab had its own chamber orchestra as just about everyone there played an instrument, and played it well.  And we're not talking about 3 chords on a guitar singing Michael Row the Boat Ashore, we're talking Bach, Mozart, Haydn sheet music stuff.  That and they had all read every science fiction book ever published needless to say.  And two of them - the guys I worked with - had been on a team that had been nominated for a Nobel Prize in Physics, so they did that pretty good too.  However, the Xmas party was an exercise in tedium except when we were playing music or singing, like I said, social skills, not so much.

Actually, most of the people I worked with in grad school and at the university were very smart, and yes, they could do things too.  They had written books, invented stuff and held patents, won awards and prizes and all that.  Yet, a more unhappy group of people in general I never met.  Never could figure out why that was - me being a bear of very little brain and all - that being so smart they never figured out how to be happy.  Yet outside of the hard science types for the most part, they were very social, high functioning, excellent conversationalists as that is a huge part of getting ahead in academic life, that cocktail (now white wine and Bree) party type of socialization.

I work on a regular basis with people who get tagged with the genius label all the time.  Usually means they don't sell records.  Musical Genius doesn't fly off the shelves very often. Bland, mediocre crap like Maria Cary and Keith Urban sells.  So who is the real genius there?  The guy who's invented his own tunings, his own electronics and a style that is totally unique, but has trouble paying the bills, or the mediocre crap that gets you mansions in Los Angeles or Nashville and has you banging Nichole Kidman to boot?

Or the other side of the biz, that not so glamorous part.  Queen called their ex-manager Death on Two Legs famously asking if the fin on his back was part of the deal, Heart called theirs Barracuda, and the Grateful Dead said that their ex-manager could steal your face right off of your head. And these guys, oh they can rob you blind (street smarts) and with such awesome interpersonal skills that they can often leave you breathlessly infatuated that they saw fit to steal from you.  Interestingly enough, they all seem to be very happy also.

Now the main guy I work with, he barely finished high school.  By the age of 20 he had sailed boats from LA to the Med, and owned his own airplane.  When he's not being a theater tech, or doing his construction company (most tech directors for major theaters are C-10 level commercial contractors) he's working on his train.  Not a train set in the basement, but a 1935 vista dome club car that he is in the process of restoring so when he retires he can rent it out and spend his retirement traveling around the country in his private rail car while still generating income. He's the second best welder I've ever seen (IJ is the best, he built most of the Star Wars sets, including the Millennium Falcon - both interior and exterior) awesome carpenter, ace plumber all more or less self taught.  How smart is he?  Oh yeah, he is almost ecstatically happy.

Am I smart because I graduated high school as the salutatorian (second place, valedictorian is first, but hell, that guy studied, I never did) while winning the religion award twice, as well as being named poet laureate. Then went to college being on the honor roll/dean's list every semester and the President's List (4.0) 6 out of 8 semesters and graduating magna cum laude, Phi Betta Kappa?  Or is it because I excelled in grad school getting both my Master's and PhD (total cumulative GPA for all three degrees 3.94) graduating Phi Kappa Phi, while getting laid a lot in the process?

Or is it because my kid is currently in his masters program and has a GPA better than mine - something he never lets me forget?

Or is it because I really love what I do, it never feels like work, and I make a good living at it while pallin' around with famous people, some of whom actually do music that I like?  The best part of the last gig I worked was sitting a few feet away from Tommy Iommi and Geezer Butler (the original guitarist and bass players from Black Sabbath) while they just riffed off each other.  You can't buy that.

Me, I'd like to think I'm smart because I'm very happy with who I am, where I am, and what I'm doing.  What's any of it worth if you're not happy?
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

Robyn

This topic reminded me of an article I published in the Mensa Bulletin in 2002.  Too long to post, but I think an excerpt is okay...

Gender Versus Sex

Robyn W..., PhD

Mensans are able to think in a non-binary manner.  One need only look at some of the puzzles we are supposed to toss off over our morning latte to know that we can grasp new and challenging ideas, construct mental tesseracts and map their intersection with three dimensional space, unravel psychological mysteries, and understand the advances of modern medicine.  So I suppose an article that goes beyond the binary man-woman, male-female issues will pose little challenge for our readers.  Agreed?  Well, then, consider the difference between sex and gender.

My driver's license lists "Sex: F."  One from another state might show "Gender: F."  But, while related, 'sex' and 'gender' are not synonymous.  A very simple explanation is that 'gender' is between the ears, while 'sex' is, um, er, well, let's just say it's anatomical.  Gender is a social construct that varies from culture to culture and time to time (man or woman), while sex is a physical aspect of who we are (male or female).  Sex is also an act, as in "people engage in sex." 

It should be relatively easy to understand that 'sex -- the act' is directly related to sexual orientation, while 'sex -- male or female' is who we are.  Or is it? 

"I am female.  You are male.  My child is intersexed."  Now we are beyond binary. Approximately one child in 2000 is born with non-standard sex chromosomes.  Instead of XX (female) or XY (male), intersexed children are born with a missing X chromosome or with an extra X or Y chromosome (e.g., XXY or XYY).  Some are externally indistinguishable from 'standard' male or female children; some have ambiguous genitalia, both male and female genitalia, or two sets of reproductive organs.

What about gender?  Is there just man and woman, an immutable binary system?  To answer that, we must look at three aspects of gender:  Gender identity, gender role, and gender expression.  ...
When we walk to the edge of all the light we have and take the step into the darkness of the unknown, we must believe that one of two things will happen. There will be something solid for us to stand on or we will be taught to fly. — Patrick Overton
  •  

tekla

we can grasp new and challenging ideas, construct mental tesseracts and map their intersection with three dimensional space, unravel psychological mysteries, and understand the advances of modern medicine

Yet somehow fashion eluded most MENSA members, as well as social skills, and the ability to talk a girl or boy into bed.  Which even Mongo knew how to do. I bet the Men of MENSA are the largest consumers of internet porn, and for all I know, they no doubt invented it.

I wonder if anyone has ever done a survey of MENSA and Phi Kappa Phi, Phi Beta Kappa - I bet PKP has more, since its outstanding work in a single subject, while a PBK takes both liberal arts and hard science excellence.  Though I remember a lot of MENSA types as an undergrad, somehow in grad school they disappeared.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

GamerJames

#19
Quote from: Robyn on August 19, 2009, 02:08:03 PM
This topic reminded me of an article I published in the Mensa Bulletin in 2002.  Too long to post, but I think an excerpt is okay...

Hi Robyn, is there anywhere online one would be able to read the full article? :)

EDIT: Nevermind, I googled and found it. (Duh, I should'a just done that originally... lol)
♫ Oh give me a home, where the trans people roam, and the queers and the androgynes play... ♫

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