lesbian

[Thundra]

<<< I am a pre-op.  And I can be a lesbian. >>>>

Ummmmmm.......nuh-uh?!  You can be lesbian-identified for sure, because there are plenty of lesbian-identified men out there.

But, if you have "tackle," as someone so blithely stated <shakes head>, then you can never-ever have lesbian sex.  What do I mean by that? 

Specifically, yeah, you can go-down on some female, but so can any man?  But the moment you go to try and bump mons, or your groin comes into contact with any part of your female partner, her mouth or whatever, it ceases to be lesbian sex.

Nobody could deny that you have the right and ability to live as any gender you want to. You may even be accepted as a woman within the lesbian community where you live. But, if you get into a relationship with someone, and have sex involving non-female parts, it ain't a lesbian relationship anymore.  So sorry!

Same is true of Bi-sexual women. The moment you have ANY kind of sex with anyone involving a non-female partner, you ain't a lesbo either.  There is nothing wrong with BI-women, or womyn as the part may be, but if want to switch back and forth, you are not str8 or lesbian.

You can have it both ways, but you cannot have it both ways?

[Terri-Gene]

I think it's a bit silly to say things like "I wish people would quit trying to re-define things"

Well, quit with all the colledge BS and try to think a little on it.  It is true that different people can have different definitions, but when the group that actually fits that definition, and originated the term by the way, has a point of view which differs from the point of view of others, I'll take the point of view of the group that it actually fits any day.  As to the opinions of others who do not live or associate within the selected "label" group.  who cares?  it's just blind men describing an elephant.

And Think on this Lana, If you find me confusing, and don't understand me, consider I take a certain delight in that, as I am nothing at all like you, or I would quit.  I'm something else entirely, and if you did understand me, I'd have to wonder about me.  I won't even address the issue about me and women, it would only confuse you more as you just don't seem to grasp the concept of the difference between a self identified woman and a Womans Community identified and accepted woman, nor would you care, if it can be believed you believe your own statements.

Terri

[beth]

                        I am a preop transsexual and I am lesbian and I have lesbian sex with my exclusively lesbian partner. No, I am not exactly like a woman that was born with a female body. i was not raised as a female, heck i was raised by wolves, raised in a way that did not fit me. No, I am not exactly like a woman born with a female body who is lesbian. No, i do not understand what it is like to be a lesbian woman but i am learning. No, i will never completley know. No, i will never be exactly like those women who grew up female and lesbian. i missed all those experiences just as i missed being a girl and a young woman. I am lesbian because I am a transsexual woman who exclusively and only wants a relationship with a woman. I only have the capacity to fall in love with women, lesbian women. I do not use any male parts when making love. My partner knows I am a woman, she is not bi, has never been with a man and has no desire to ever be with one.   There exists no other term to describe me. If one believes a MTF transsexual is a woman then it is also possible for her to be lesbian. If she cannot be called lesbian than she cannot be called a woman. By the definitions flying around here no transsexual could be called blonde because she is not exactly like a woman born with a female body who has blonde hair. Again, I am not exactly like a woman who was born with a female body who is lesbian, that is a given. I do have lesbian sex, I have no desire to go into great detail of how that is possible, it is very imtimately personal and it isnt within the rules of this site, but I do have lesbian sex.  I understand how lesbians in general view my situation with much doubt and I don't blame them a bit, I honestly feel the same way toward most transgendered who call themselves lesbian. I do not expect blind acceptance from anyone or any acceptance from many, but if anyone gets to know me they will accept me and know who I am, a transsexual lesbian woman.

beth

[Terri-Gene]

a transsexual lesbian woman

Nice when you can find one woman out of countless thousands who can accept that isn't it?  I wish you the same luck within hardcore communities who may accept 'woman" but would puke at the thought of sex, no matter how creative or limited.  And anyway, it would seem two way sex would be impossible under the circumstances described anyway, since only one partner would be gential stimulated under those conditions, making actual sex a one way street, not two way.  But I guess one can convience themselves of anything.  I don't know how creative you are, but I do see a difference in one servicing another and actual mutually engaged in free uninhibited sex.  Or, is there some direct stimulation to your own genitals that I'm missing here?  But then I've heard sex can be in the mind. Lesbian sex isn't usually so inhibited I understand.

[beth]

                   the details of this are getting way beyond comfortable to talk about terrigene, i am sorry if you find this fraudulent, fantasized, incomprehensible or unbelievable. it seems you understand lesbian feeling perfectly because you can make statements about their feelings with such absoluteness.  i feel inhibited in no way, the existance of incorrect male genitals does not mean there is any desire or ability for them to function.  i believe people given time, have the ability to determine gender irreguardless of physical appearance or presentation, i certainly can and have. i understand exactly what lesbian sex is, it is sexual intimacy shared between two women. there is no specific body part or parts defined as needed before that can take place, except possibly in patriarchy fantasy.


beth

[edit]inappropriate sentence removed by beth[/edit]

[Terri-Gene]

Beth, I do not have a problem with believing a particular person who happens to be transsexual can have a relationship with a woman who happens to be Lesbian.  Just saying such a thing isn't "normal" in the community and that I would have questions of how "Sex" is defined in such a relationship where the genitals of one of the parties are totally not involved, though I am well aware that personal fullfillment can take many forms.  I am not asking you to defend yourself in this or go into sexually explicit details, for one thing, that could be pressing the rules and besides, a whole lot of us arn't all that comfortable discussing sex itself.

As to perfectly understanding anything or making statements of absolutness, so much cowpattie, as I don't and can't.  Mostly I can only relate to the feelings and behaviors of Women in my own local area, Sacramento to San Francisco, in an earlier transitional attempt more then 3 decades ago, Bakersfield to Los Angeles,and thier reactions to my involvement with them and to other transgendered women in general.  For the most part, as plutonic relational friends, most of the women I consistantly hang out with for companionship are in my own age group and of course tend to be Old School, Life Term Lesbians who came up in and were involved in the various rights movements that have set the stage for today, so some of thier views and beliefs may admittedly be somewhat more rarrowly defined then younger women who come from more diverse backgrounds, or have had earlier relatinships with men before fixing on lesbian life.

As to how you accomplish sex, Please do keep it to yourself, I was just posing some thoughts about such things which make sense to me but don't necessarily need to be dignified with an answer.

but if anyone gets to know me they will accept me and know who I am, a transsexual lesbian woman.

I'd go with you on that one if it were qualified with a Non Practicing Transsexual Lesbian woman.  Sorry, that old school association again ....

Terri

[Svetlana]

Well, quit with all the colledge BS and try to think a little on it.

college bs?  what in the hell is that all about?  i didn't go there to learn how to speak bs... neither did i learn that.  i went there because it's the done thing around these parts, and it'll get me a piece of paper that tells employers i'm allowed to earn a halfway-decent paycheck.  that's all.  never have i ever mentioned going to college as anything that makes me higher or mightier or better or anything... so what's all that about?

if you've got issues about not (i assume) having gone to college yourself... then that's your problem - don't use it as some excuse for being "more real" than people who have.  i never mentioned the fact once in relation to any argument here.  i'm not using "speaking techniques" or any such bs against you.  the very fact that you assume i was is quite insulting.  learn some manners damnit.

[Terri-Gene]

Just consider it a personal realational difficulty Lana, I got nothing against higher education, in fact you would be surprised at the number of individual Degrees and honors I have laying around that used to cover my "Ego Wall" in times past, but now remain stacked in a closet until such time as they find thier way into the trash, none of them were earned in a university, though they are state and federally certified.  In fact, out of four P.O.S.T. Acadimies for different state and federal levels, among other things best not mentioned, I graduated #1 in my class in two of them, though I may have had an unfair advantage in pure real life experience in the criteria being taught by that time, but it isn't me and has no application to my present life, to much of it is extreamly specialised, or I would hope not.  Just "pieces of paper" anymore that I could have done without had things been different, or I myself had been different.

terri

[Leigh]

Off topic.  Go to yur conors and kool don.

[Terri-Gene]

Gladly, and thank you.

terri

[Svetlana]

omg, i didn't mean to bring on a description of your academic history.  that's precisely what i was attempting to tell you - that it's completely irrelevant, as is mine, as is anything else not to do with what's being argued - so kindly leave it out!

i just can't believe your know-it-all attitude.  i get the thing that some people would consider a bisexual woman to not be a lesbian... that's a reasonable view because the issue could be argued either way.  i'm not sure what's right on that count.

what riles me is that if i were only romantically inclined towards women, you wouldn't call me a lesbian, because i wouldn't count as a "real woman".  you'd give some hideous euphamism for "pretend woman" like "female-identified"... that is an example of BS.  if you'd have bothered to read through my post at all, you'd have noticed that i specifically stated that i wasn't "female-identified" or any other such euphamistic garbage.  i... am... a... woman.  for you to then turn around and suggest that i might think of that possibility, as though i didn't think of it before, only proves you couldn't so much as be bothered to read through a post you were replying to.  how much more arrogant could you possibly be?  never mind.  but it doesn't make for evolving conversation, need i say.

oh and i'll forget about the comments about you enjoying annoying and confusing me.  another thing that's completely off-topic, not to mention just plain bitchy.  keep your personal opinions of me to yourself.  or... if you want to tell me how pleased you are that i don't understand your viewpoints, pm me about it; keep it off of the boards.

dragging this kicking and screaming back onto the topic... do you want me to tell you why i would concur with beth's way of seeing things rather than yours?  as i see it, we might be getting mixed up here by putting too many points in one post.  so let's start with one and go back and forth with that.  it might lead to more constructive debate, and we might solve this after all.

solve what?  well, if two people's opinions differ so much on a subject, the truth lies somewhere in between.  if we are able to eventually meet at that point through debate (involving both of us listening to one another and staying on-topic), others might find their viewpoints easy to join onto the scale between ours... and thus we might all come to a consensus on the issue.  that surely is useful stuff.  so, do you want to do this?

if so, it doesn't matter who starts.  so seeing as it's me who's talking right at this minute, i'll start (remembering to keep it to a singular point):

the issue is partially based on the 'question' of whether or not a pre-op TS is a 'real woman' in every sense.  so let's tackle that, to begin with.  do you think she is?  (if so, why, and if not, why not)

[Terri-Gene]

I pass Lana, and concede to your ultimate wisdom, thank you for your insights on women and their relationships.

terri

[Svetlana]

Okay fair dues if you don't want to discuss the subject.

What a snide, sarcastic off-hand comment, though.  If you want to finish the conversation, have the decency to actually finish it.  If you want to be nasty after you've supposedly finished it, then that's not finishing it, is it?

I'm not stuck-up and I don't think I know everything.  Why would I bother arguing with anybody if I thought I knew all the answers anyway?  That'd be completely pointless.  So I only had to say this here, now, on the boards, to defend against your sarcastic sideswipe just then...

... so, seeing as I'm choosing not to use any likewise comments at the end of this post to try and muddy your character, can we end this now?  If you want to reply, can you do it via pm, seeing as it has absolutely nothing to do with this thread?

...

Now, back on topic... does anybody else who holds a view opposing mine, want to debate this issue?  I think it'd be interesting, and informative, to try and connect these two very opposing views (plus any others there might be!).  Maybe you want to suggest the starting point of the debate this time around.  I think sticking to singular points at a time would be good, just my opinion.

[stephanie_craxford]

Okay everyone, let's just take a moment to breath, and compose ourselves.

I believe that this thread has lost it's direction as origionally started by Beth, and it has become convoluted and hard to follow.

May I recommend that we close this thread, and maybe Svetlana, you could start a new thread, asking  a new question along the lines of your last post and see where that leads.

Also I am reminding evryone to keep disagreements on points of view, civil, and not personal.  Remember that these are points of view, so lets maintain a friendly atmosphere.

Chat later

Steph

[Thundra]

Woo-hoo!  My work here is done!

Such passion warms my heart.

To Terri:  Yeah, you can say I am old-school too, even though I work with nothing but kids.  I am ancient.

To Beth:  Wow, if you can pull that off without either of you going insane, more power to you.  I know that has got to be ridiculously hard to maintain until you feel sexually available to your partner.  And Terri is correct, that woman of your'n is very, very rare indeed.

To: Svetlana:  What exactly are you trying to debate darlin'?  Sounds like you are itchin' to call someone out with guns blazin'?

To Leigh:  Peacemaker?  We have to talk.

[Cassandra]

Stephanie wrote

I believe that this thread has lost it's direction

So to help get back on track, here is the original premise of the thread from Beth.

                       i know that lots of MTF transsexuals consider themselves lesbian, many liking women all their lives, some even staying with their wives thru transition. i am lesbian but i haven't heard anyone else discribe their orientation developing in the way mine has. i would love to hear of others experiences or comments on mine to see if there are any similarities.

[beth]

posted by terrigene,

"Nice when you can find one woman out of countless thousands who can accept that isn't it?  I wish you the same luck within hardcore communities who may accept 'woman" but would puke at the thought of sex, no matter how creative or limited."


Posted by thundra,

"To Beth:  Wow, if you can pull that off without either of you going insane, more power to you.  I know that has got to be ridiculously hard to maintain until you feel sexually available to your partner."



                     "Wow" and "Nice" to you both too. I am sexually available to my partner and neither of us is going insane. There are many lesbian couples that aren't using every single sexual part in all ways in their relationships. Ever heard the term Stone Dyke? I'd love to see someone tell them they are non- practicing lesbians. I know very little about lesbian society.  i know what a lesbian relationship is, i am in one and i understand lesbian sex and it isnt defined as you two are defining it here. I do know that I will wait to hear from others much more qualified than I have heard from here. Maybe the "old school"     :icon_rolleyes:   needs to go back to school and those that have been rejected should look within rather than branding a whole community with the same iron.


"Sorry to let the sun shine on your thunder"

"just posing some thoughts about such things which make sense to me"


beth

[Leigh]

  Ever heard the term Stone Dyke?

Nope but I have heard of butch, stone butch, bull dagger and diesel dyke.  The last two are old school.

[Terri-Gene]

There are many lesbian couples that aren't using every single sexual part in all ways in their relationships. Ever heard the term Stone Dyke? I'd love to see someone tell them they are non- practicing lesbians

Due to my misunderstanding and ignorance of Lesbian culture and individuals within that culture, I would be highly interested in what these people are doing that would suggest they are not using thier sexual parts in thier relationships?  As to the term "Dyke", I can and have used that term in application to myself at times, but am somewhat reserved about doing so, as I consider such an application to be reserved to a very special and select group of people who have a much more secure and comfortable relationship with themselves and the world then I presently do.  Within the culture itself, I more identify as "butch".  Those that identify and are socially recognised as "Dykes" are very special people to me and I consider them very special people, superior to myself in thier personal comfort and security.  In other words, in themselves.  More in terms of FTW, with a more complete understanding of the worlds relationships toward themselves and thier kind, and actually living by it in the daily priciples of thier lives.


Terri

[Dennis]

From my understanding, if you are "stone", you pleasure your partner and don't allow her to touch parts of your body. It's not uncommon and is a part of lesbian history. Stone butches consider themselves as sexual as anyone else. I have no idea of the mechanics of it, having never been with one or been one myself, but I do know that using a dildo is acceptable to some stone butches.

Dennis