How Important Is Changing The World to TGs?

[Miniar]

There's a difference between tv and reality, but the two affect each other undeniably.

ONLY IF YOU WATCH IT. 

Er, even if "I" don't watch it, it still affects reality, because billions of other people watch it.

[Tammy Hope]

Yeah, when it breaks down your door and slams you to the ground, you respond a lot differently than if you read about it happening to someone else.

From talking to CDs, their attitude (in general) is the risk isn't worth it.  Being outed and being able to present as they want or the closet.  They mostly choose the closet.  Those who can be stealth respond pretty much the same way.  They don't want to be outed.  So, if you have trouble passing, too bad.  You're on your own.  And yes, stealth is another closet.

Julie

I know I'll be accused  - within moments - of being devisive or attacking my own side or whateverfor saying this but that accusation will be BS because this isn't an attack, just an observation.

I don't think when we are discussing actual RIGHTS in terms of housing or employment or marriage or etc, that crossdressers are a factor.

What they do is, essentially, the equivalent of a person who has a lot of tats or a lot of piercings or a man with really long hair or a woman with a shaved head or the guys with the saggy pants.

they are simply at odds with the conventional norms regarding acceptable apperance and style - cultural customs.

They may or may not have thier own set of beefs - should a crossdresser be allowed to wear a nice pencil skirt to the office? - but they are not at all, in my view, the same issues as TGs are faced with. for one reason, what they do is not who they are (any more than getting some new ink defines you) - it's what they want to do.

Again, I'm NOT suggesting that what they want to do in defiance of custom is bad or wrong or that they don't have the right to argue that no one should be made to conform for the sake of conformity. But at the same time, if you can cross dress everywhere BUT at work, then being made to wear drab at work is not a huge deal. IF you are just a dresser.

So I have no doubt that CD's are not interested in being out of the closet activists in almost every case and, for the most part, I think that's proper.

Further, I'd argue that in trying to broaden our net to get every last soul who has ANY non-traditional gender label that we dilute our core argument and we give the opposition a lot of ammunition to fight against us.

It might not be correct, within the self-righteousness of the community, to say this but you will have a LOT harder time getting the average joe to respect you if he thinks that means he has to respect the over-the-top drag queen too.

Yes, I know the counter argument - all people should respect all people....We'd all like to live in Utopia. But as a practical matter, you have to do things one step at a time.

[tekla]

Most of the CDs, I've met and known are not 'over the top DQs' they are regular people trying in their own way to work out a rather exceptional set of circumstances.  Hell, most of my wardrobe is black, and if I'm going for a splash of color, I'll put on something with a little gray.

And, I'm sure many CDs would look a hella lot better in a pencil skirt than many of the girls I see in them and think 'Honey, that skirt is not your friend." 

But, correct me - and I'm sure you will, at length.  But when 'rights' are only given to certain people (people we like, people we agree with, people who are the 'right kind', people like us) and not to others - are they then not really 'rights' anymore, but something more akin to privilege - a special law for a special few?

How many people on the Remember Our Dead list were genuine 100% TS, and how many were simply just practicing, as you say 'non-acceptable behavior'?  Are they any less dead?  Are their deaths somehow, 'just' their way of being non-conformists?

[Mister]

Laura, I sort of agree with you.

Tekla, No, those people aren't any less dead and I agree that if we count them in one column that we need to count them in all columns.  But, just like any civil rights movement, we don't all get them at the same time.  The LGB has ENDA, and we were cut off.  While no one in this forum will say that the 'T' doesn't deserve equal protection, I find it impossible to say that a few million LGB people should continue to be discriminated against because we can't pass an inclusive ENDA.  If we need to start breaking down the 'LGBT' to get protections for some of our community, then that's what we need to do.  Protect whoever we can as soon as we can and continue to advocate for whoever is left.

[tekla]

Hey Mister, that bill did not pass, no one got anything.  The current copy has T protections in it, we'll see.

[Julie Marie]

Some comments:
I know CDs who would love to dress "en femme" at work.

How long do you think it would have been (if a non-T ENDA passed) before the voters would be sympathetic enough towards Ts to include them in ENDA?

Many gays and lesbians cross the gender lines and are discriminated against for that.  You can't exclude the T without leaving some gays & lesbians vulnerable to T discrimination.

Julie

[Mister]

Hey Mister, that bill did not pass, no one got anything.  The current copy has T protections in it, we'll see.

ha, megatypo ftw.

[Steph]

Then again, you just might be lazy.  After all, lots of people fought and worked for this, why should you be bothered?

But, if I got one law passed, a minor one, stating that all legal documents stand as written - which would revert you DL/Passport/BC to 'male' I bet you'd be at Border's trying to by a copy of Protesting for Dummies when they open the next morning.

I'm not sure why on earth you would think me to be lazy?  And, how the hell would you know what I have and have not done?

Unfortunately pumpkin you wouldn't be able to do that in my country as we have a Charter of Rights and freedoms that protect me from jerks trying to do such things.  When you mention "Borders" I'm assuming you are referring to a book store?  Maybe if I read such "Dummies" books I would understand you better, but then I really don't care.

-={LR}=-

[Janet_Girl]

I write my Representatives and Senators, and I am on a couple of boards regarding GLBT issues.

Other than that I am not very active.


Janet

[aurora17]

Personally I don't wish to cause the world to change. After all, I've got difficulties to change my own body, I feel powerless to change the others minds.

If they hate us, then so be it. At least we can still have our own little world to live peacefully in.

[Tammy Hope]

Most of the CDs, I've met and known are not 'over the top DQs'

do you EVER actually reply to what someone is actually saying?

they are regular people trying in their own way to work out a rather exceptional set of circumstances.  Hell, most of my wardrobe is black, and if I'm going for a splash of color, I'll put on something with a little gray.

And, I'm sure many CDs would look a hella lot better in a pencil skirt than many of the girls I see in them and think 'Honey, that skirt is not your friend." 

But, correct me - and I'm sure you will, at length.  But when 'rights' are only given to certain people (people we like, people we agree with, people who are the 'right kind', people like us) and not to others - are they then not really 'rights' anymore, but something more akin to privilege - a special law for a special few?

90% of what people call "rights" are actually privileges.

How many people on the Remember Our Dead list were genuine 100% TS, and how many were simply just practicing, as you say 'non-acceptable behavior'?  Are they any less dead?

could you be any less relevant to my post?

Are their deaths somehow, 'just' their way of being non-conformists?

A lot of people got themselves dead throughout history for being non-conformist in various ways.

If I were somehow proposing we treat their deaths as less important your post might actually have some relevance to what I actually said but since I got nowhere near that concept...not so much.

[Julie Marie]

More comments:

In most social changes, the few make personal sacrifices and put in lots of time and effort and the masses enjoy their fruits.  It's up to each person to decide if they want to be part of the former or one of the latter.

You don't have to be on the front lines leading the rally to effect change.  Each person who comes into contact with you and walks away with a better understanding of transgender lives is a positive step forward.

Doing something is better than doing nothing if you don't like the way society treats Ts.  Baby steps... walk... jog... run.

Eradicating the negative stigma, the prejudice and the discrimination TGs face will possibly be the most difficult social change to achieve that any group in humankind has ever faced.  But if we don't work at it, the closet will be the only safe option. 

Julie

[gennee]

With each passing day my desire to educate the masses has increased. I spoke with a gay friend about transgender issues this evening. I am praying for more opportunities to speak to groups. I write about transgender topics on an online magazine. Writing is one of the ways I communicate but I enjoy being out in public and speaking to folks.

Gennee

[MeghanAndrews]

Julie, I think it's different when you work in a field where you are helping transpeople for a living. It's a different kind of activism. I don't need to be out there waving a sign and being 'out and proud' in front of a news camera or on the steps of capitol hill to make a difference. I think helping transpeople in their daily lives is just as important. I know issues like ENDA and bathroom equality and stuff are important, but I pick and choose my battles. I know there are others who will carry on those fights because they mean more to them than they do for me. I prefer working with individuals and with small groups vs. working to change a system. I don't know though, I've never really been active politically.

Honestly, and I'm sure this may seem insensitive and stuff, but I don't even usually read political stuff. In the forums, Julie, I'd read one of your posts about problems with your ex or some life issue (personal) over a post about a trans-issue like the one of yours that had all the hits concerning 'maam'd and glammed' and I'd totally skip one about ENDA (political). I like coming to Susan's to read how my online friends are doing with their lives, meet new people, document my journey and that's pretty much it. I don't want trans stuff to populate my every waking hour, you know?

Oh, and I definitely reserve my right (privilege maybe?) to back out of the community any time I see fit. I think that it's great to have people out, proud and fighting for causes but I don't think anyone is obligated to that. To Tekla's point, I'm sure if someone were pulling my legal name or changing my gender marker on my ID I'd do something, but marching on Sacramento wouldn't be one of them. I'd be finding another way other than having to be out in someone's face to get change. That's just my thoughts Julie, hope everything is going well for you Meghan

Oh, I forgot to add, I do a lot of public speaking about trans issues too. I also speak very actively to people about my experience. I figure while I'm feeling up to it, I'll be vocal and active in the community.

[Kumodamoogle]

Well Julie, I just read your OP and decided to post without reading any of the other replies just to give you an unbiased, or non-off topic opinion so if this has been hit on, err..sorry? 

Anyway, to me as a transsexual male, I had to fight society every inch of every day growing up. By the time I was an adult I had no care at all for it. Other peoples opinions and thoughts and society as a whole could go ->-bleeped-<- itself with a jelly doughnut for all I cared. Its like an Armor you build about yourself so you can REMAIN yourself. Now that Im a little older, I think my original concept of running off into the desert and becoming a hunter/gatherer once I had all my Surgeries is a little irrational, but I'd still almost rather do just that than deal with humanity. I think that type of attitude may persist in the community. We've hated/ignored "the others" for so long it doesnt matter what they do, we shall simply remain us.

Its really bad that we have to overcome that barrier and care what goes on around us for the future transsexuals of earth sake, but there again is an issue. We dont reproduce transsexuals, "the others" make them. And on those rare occasions we do reproduce our offspring are "other" not Transsexuals like ourselves 99% of the time. So, do we really have a stock in making reality at all? Shouldnt we just live for our own knowledge and spiritual oneness/freedom? Those questions and the overwhelming handicap of just being a transsexual are usually what stop me from giving a damn.

So I dont know, On one hand it would be nice if we lived in rainbow happy land with unicorns and Jesus, and all people everywhere should strive to obtain that. On the other hand, its so damn unlikely that its not worth bothering with when youre buried under a mountain of sh*t with no shovel. So its important to me in a philosophical way, but not in a spiritual way.

[Ms Bev]

I've only known a very small number of transsexuals in person.  In fact, only 1 ftm and 3 mtf.
My observation, since all are pretty much under the radar, is that they just want to go about their normal lives.  And that's okay with me, especially since that's my own preference as well.  One difference with me is that I'm still at the same job I transitioned on, so I've had tons of time to educate people.  And most of my friends became nemesis, and I was fired from my job for being who I am by a new manager.  That.....is when I started getting furious instead of hurt.  I became quite the activist then, used some activist resources, and I got my job back.  I gained some respect for doing so, but not so much.
And now, I've won, because I outlasted them, outlived a few, and have seen faces come and go.  I have more friends now than I did before I transitioned, but it was emotionally expensive.  And with some, my ts'ism is a company urban myth.

On the home front, Marcy and I are just seen as a lesbian  couple complete with kids and grand kids.  Everything is cool, and all I want is to live, just like anyone else, and not be bothered, and everything is perfect.................nah......it never is. 

There's always something out there to bite you if you're ts.  And when it happens, you go back into activist mode, and either take action, or not after the anger subsides.  A good example of this was just half a year ago.  After giving blood to the Red Cross, I get a phone call:
"hello...."
"yes, hello.  This is so-and-so with the American Red Cross.  Is Beverly_____ available?"
"This is she, how may I help you?"
"No, I would like to speak to BEVERLY ______.  Is he available?"
"sigh....This is Ms Beverly ________.  What do you want?"
"I would like to speak with Michael Beverly ________.....PLEASE!"
"You are speaking to Michael Beverly _________"
"Okay sir, this is our problem.......we have you listed as female.  What gender are you?"
"I'm female.  What do you want?"
"Were you male?"
"I'm a transsexual.  I'm female.  Make your point."
"Okay, so you are male.  Have you had genital surgery?"
""What business is that of yours?  How dare you be so personal"
"Have you had..."
It's NONE of your business.  Goodbye."
"Sir......we have to know"
"Like I said, it's none of your organization's business"
"It's an FDA mandate....."
I don't care, now goodbye, and don't call me again."
*click*

2 days later, another call

"Hello, this is another so-and-so from American Red Cross.  May I speak with Beverly ____?"
"This is Ms Beverly ______, and I asked not to be called by your organization again...."
"This won't take long.....we have to fix your gender.  According to our records......."
"I told the other woman I'm female.  Why do you care?!"
"Well, our records show...."
"Some things change.  I'm female.  Make a note of it."
"Ummm.....okay"
"Please make a note in my file....do not call me again"
"Yes ma'am.  I'm sorry to disturb you"
*click*

A few days later, another call....

"Hello, Beverly _______ please"
"speaking......how may I help you?"
"This is yet another so-and-so from American Red Cross"
"Really!  I asked twice now not to be called again."
"I'm sorry Miss ______, but we have a solution for you..."
"Oh?"
"Yes.....all you have to do is that every time you come in to donate, is indicate that you are male."
"REMOVE ME FROM YOUR CALLING LIST"
*BANG*

I went into activist mode, fumed, researched my resources.  I was going to take them to court.  How DARE they? 
This went on for over 2 months......super activist mode.

And then, after the anger subsided..........

I didn't want to make the news, and have my face in the public eye.  I didn't want the world to know how to find me or mine, and put us on display.
I just wanted to be left alone....like anyone else.  Marcy took the next call from Red Cross when the inevitable call came, and told them 'she is no longer going to donate her blood'.

Writing this, almost puts me back in the mode of activist.

But now, more time has gone by, more grand kids pushed in swings, more quiet walks with my love.

That's all I want in life, and is that really so bad?





*sigh*



Bev

[Suzy]

Awwww, Bev, that's a shame.  Really.  Who would have thought that an organization like the Red Cross would do that? 

Kristi

[Sandy]

Awwww, Bev, that's a shame.  Really.  Who would have thought that an organization like the Red Cross would do that? 

Kristi

When I told lifesource that I was taking estrogen and I was transitioning I was immediately forbidden to donate blood or platelets.  Even though the need for platelets outstrips the need for blood by many times and I had been a multiple gallon donor.

When I asked why, it was said that since I was a homosexual (now), I was in a high risk category since I would be having sex with men.

This is the fiat that was handed down by the FDA.  If you are MTF you are homosexual, I.E. gay, I.E. AIDS carrier.  I have no idea what they think of FTM's.

Thank you president bush. 

Platelets cannot be preserved or frozen.  They are processed and used within five days of harvesting.  Usually to leukemia patients or those who have had their bone marrow irradiated.  My blood saved lives.

The frustration and sadness I feel has not ever been assuaged.

Yes, of course, I could go in now and lie that I have never donated.  My records can only show that I am now female.  But to perform that selfless act, I must hide my face, my history, my life?  I must fear that if I am ever found out I could face prosecution for wanting to serve my fellow human beings?  What an absurd society we live in.

-Sandy

[Tammy Hope]

I've only known a very small number of transsexuals in person.  In fact, only 1 ftm and 3 mtf.
My observation, since all are pretty much under the radar, is that they just want to go about their normal lives.  And that's okay with me, especially since that's my own preference as well.  One difference with me is that I'm still at the same job I transitioned on, so I've had tons of time to educate people.  And most of my friends became nemesis, and I was fired from my job for being who I am by a new manager.  That.....is when I started getting furious instead of hurt.  I became quite the activist then, used some activist resources, and I got my job back.  I gained some respect for doing so, but not so much.
And now, I've won, because I outlasted them, outlived a few, and have seen faces come and go.  I have more friends now than I did before I transitioned, but it was emotionally expensive.  And with some, my ts'ism is a company urban myth.

On the home front, Marcy and I are just seen as a lesbian  couple complete with kids and grand kids.  Everything is cool, and all I want is to live, just like anyone else, and not be bothered, and everything is perfect.................nah......it never is. 

There's always something out there to bite you if you're ts.  And when it happens, you go back into activist mode, and either take action, or not after the anger subsides.  A good example of this was just half a year ago.  After giving blood to the Red Cross, I get a phone call:
"hello...."
"yes, hello.  This is so-and-so with the American Red Cross.  Is Beverly_____ available?"
"This is she, how may I help you?"
"No, I would like to speak to BEVERLY ______.  Is he available?"
"sigh....This is Ms Beverly ________.  What do you want?"
"I would like to speak with Michael Beverly ________.....PLEASE!"
"You are speaking to Michael Beverly _________"
"Okay sir, this is our problem.......we have you listed as female.  What gender are you?"
"I'm female.  What do you want?"
"Were you male?"
"I'm a transsexual.  I'm female.  Make your point."
"Okay, so you are male.  Have you had genital surgery?"
""What business is that of yours?  How dare you be so personal"
"Have you had..."
It's NONE of your business.  Goodbye."
"Sir......we have to know"
"Like I said, it's none of your organization's business"
"It's an FDA mandate....."
I don't care, now goodbye, and don't call me again."
*click*

2 days later, another call

"Hello, this is another so-and-so from American Red Cross.  May I speak with Beverly ____?"
"This is Ms Beverly ______, and I asked not to be called by your organization again...."
"This won't take long.....we have to fix your gender.  According to our records......."
"I told the other woman I'm female.  Why do you care?!"
"Well, our records show...."
"Some things change.  I'm female.  Make a note of it."
"Ummm.....okay"
"Please make a note in my file....do not call me again"
"Yes ma'am.  I'm sorry to disturb you"
*click*

A few days later, another call....

"Hello, Beverly _______ please"
"speaking......how may I help you?"
"This is yet another so-and-so from American Red Cross"
"Really!  I asked twice now not to be called again."
"I'm sorry Miss ______, but we have a solution for you..."
"Oh?"
"Yes.....all you have to do is that every time you come in to donate, is indicate that you are male."
"REMOVE ME FROM YOUR CALLING LIST"
*BANG*

I went into activist mode, fumed, researched my resources.  I was going to take them to court.  How DARE they? 
This went on for over 2 months......super activist mode.

And then, after the anger subsided..........

I didn't want to make the news, and have my face in the public eye.  I didn't want the world to know how to find me or mine, and put us on display.
I just wanted to be left alone....like anyone else.  Marcy took the next call from Red Cross when the inevitable call came, and told them 'she is no longer going to donate her blood'.

Writing this, almost puts me back in the mode of activist.

But now, more time has gone by, more grand kids pushed in swings, more quiet walks with my love.

That's all I want in life, and is that really so bad?





*sigh*



Bev

Bev hun, you have a lot more patience with morons on the phone than I do....I believe the moment she said "ok sir" she would have been eating dial tone.

and the second call i'd have hesitated just long enough to inform them they just lost a doner.

If being trans means I can't give blood then, oh well. There loss.

[tekla]

I think it's everybody's loss when people are not allowed to live up to their potential.  Who knows what they could have done, could have been - done for others - had they felt free to make choices for themselves they felt were for the best?

Take a piece of paper, draw a line down the middle and on one side write down the places that you find all the the equivalent of a person who has a lot of tats or a lot of piercings or a man with really long hair or a woman with a shaved head or the guys with the saggy pants, where you find the gays, the lesbians open and out, the TGs participating in everyday society, pictured as part of the community.  And on the other side, write down the places where such behavior is condemned, looked down upon, and generally not accepted.

Go ahead and do it, I'll wait.

So, look at that list and what do you find?  I bet the more open and tolerant they are, the higher the average income, with the reverse being true, the the least tolerant places, some of the extremely rural areas, are the poorest.

When you let everyone be themselves, it unleashes great and vast potentials of action, income, and activity.