Fighting back as idividuals vs. a cohesive group.

[Bellaon7]

It's been my own personal experience that ts/tg have no or little want for standing out or any uneeded attention. Yet I've tried to fight back against the wall with reckless abandon on my own with little success. I value freedom in all forms above anything else, yet have not been able to move this wall on my own. I am hopelessly introverted, yet am coming to the realization that I cannot accomplish anything to help ourselves on my own. We are not organized, by our nature, the way the Gay community has & have helped themselves. I'm not asking for your opinion on my opinions, observances, or point of veiw. I would however ask for your own opinions on what/how we can began to help oursevles. Thank you! 

[noir]

I believe we're too diverse. The Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual community has same sex relationships in common. However, the transsexual community is straight, lesbian, and gay, and we have vastly different opinions concerning transitioning, and we're not in harmony whatsoever. Those would have to be worked out, and nobody can be bothered. Besides, we go a step above sexual orientation, and go into gender identity, and that is a very personal subject, farther beyond sexual orientation.

The hell we go through together should be enough, but apparently it isn't. Instead of using that to ensure future generations don't have to trod through the rivers of ->-bleeped-<- we did, we put it behind us to assimilate into our rightful gender roles. At least in most cases.

[K8]

Fortunately, we are usually included in the LGBT group.  We are coming out of the closet more slowly than the LGB part, though.  For years it was dangerous to be out as TG or TS, but we are gaining acceptance. 

Many of us still feel we want/need to go completely stealth as soon as we are able.  One of the best estimates (judging from their methodology) guesses that TS's are between 0.2% and 0.5% of the population.  That's a lot of people but a very low percentage.  So our numbers don't lend to our having clout.  If many of those go stealth, it makes our visible numbers less.

I am out.  I am a normal person who is also TS.  Those around me see me as a normal person who is also TS.  The children of my friends know I am transsexual and figure that's just the way some people are.  This is a gradual process.  I think we are where the LGB part of our community was about 15 years ago.

Don't forget that it was the drag queens who were the primary instigators of the Stonewall Riots that many see as the beginning of the modern gay-rights movement.

- Kate
Post Merge: September 18, 2009, 08:30:30 PM
Oh, and why is this on the MtF section of the forum?  How about the FtMs?  They count too.  And the CDs and androgynes and intersexed and TGs. 

(Are you starting to see what some of the problem is?)

- Kate

[Bellaon7]

i beleive ur both right & get to some of the question of who & where are, but where(i know where i wanna go) how do we get there? obviously it's not in our nature, accross the spectrum to be get in ur face to anyone, but what's left? i believe we're very lucky to be able to ride the coatailes of the gay comm. especialy understanding their lack of understaning of the ts/tg comm., yet still accept us. but where do we go from here & more importantly how?
Post Merge: September 19, 2009, 12:06:05 AM

[K8]

I was thinking about this a little overnight.  How many recent threads are there on this forum warning that you might lose everything - friends, family, job - if you transition?  How many threads are there wanting to move to a more accepting area because the person doesn't feel she can transition where she is?  How many threads are there agonizing about coming out?  These are all real concerns and I don't mean to  belittle them in the least, but as long as those are the concerns then most of us aren't willing to be real visible.

There are also many posts that say the person will no longer be TS once transition is over, so as a group we lose those people.

I don't know the answer to your question, Bellaon.  It seems a chicken-and-egg proposition to me.  We gain acceptance by being more visible, but we aren't willing to be visible until we gain acceptance.  It's a non-linear process, where a little acceptance allows a few more of us to be visible, which gains a little more acceptance, and so on.

Yet another of life's conundrums.

- Kate

[tekla]

Groups, for a number of reasons, tend to do better than individuals.  Sure from time to time there is a Harvey Milk, who can do it by force of personality - but it's rare (and for every Harvey Milk the LGBT movement also had a Roy Cohen - so that personality deal ain't all it's cracked up as being).

[Bellaon7]

i understand that those of us w/i the ts/tg comm. r all in different stages, situations, & what not. obviously we're not well organized as a movement, but r we truely fractured? i mean are there significant predjudecces against ourselves from within? is there some kind of hatred against the crossdresser, the undecided, the happily androginous, the pre op, the post op...? i know none of us r perfect & have not heard anyone claim to be. are we ashamed of being tied to others in the ts/tg comm.?  i've not heard any stories of hatred against each other, self loathing? sure but against each other? no, am i just dense?
Post Merge: September 19, 2009, 11:28:25 PM
ooo...sorry, i'm not familiar w/the formalities, that's what i wanted to try to understand. is it ok for me to be firends w/someome who is gay or another that is perfectly happy to crossdress? it's been many yrs, drops of lsd, & whatnot. i'm not up to date on the current clicks. who do i need to stay away from or not be seen with? certantly don't wan't to risk compremising my social grace!       

[K8]

I'm certainly no expert on the TG community, but I'm not aware of any fractures within the community or that any "category" is set as pariah.  I know there's a certain amount of "Well, I'm more transgendered than you are" but in the motorcycling community there's a certain amount of "I'm more of a biker than you are" that is comparable.  Probably all groups have it.  I think a CD has some different issues than does a TS, but many of our issues and needs are similar.

And as far as I'm concerned, you can associate with whomever you want to.  I have and haven't been ridden out of town on a rail yet (although there were a few close calls ).

- Kate

[Julie Marie]

It's been my own personal experience that ts/tg have no or little want for standing out or any uneeded attention. Yet I've tried to fight back against the wall with reckless abandon on my own with little success. I value freedom in all forms above anything else, yet have not been able to move this wall on my own. I am hopelessly introverted, yet am coming to the realization that I cannot accomplish anything to help ourselves on my own. We are not organized, by our nature, the way the Gay community has & have helped themselves. I'm not asking for your opinion on my opinions, observances, or point of veiw. I would however ask for your own opinions on what/how we can began to help oursevles. Thank you! 

I first asked this question over five years ago and every forum I've been on I've asked the question, sometimes several times.  Every time I ask I usually get either very few responses or reasons (excuses) why one doesn't get involved. 

Just about every group/society/culture that bands together to fight oppression or discrimination did so because they reached their limits and something pushed them over the edge.  That hasn't happened to TGs as a group.  Individually, yes, but not as a whole.  And if it wasn't for the LGB, we'd have no voice at all.

There has been no hangings, Stonewall incidents, cross burnings, AIDS, rampant persecution or oppression or slavery we've had to fight.  We can vote, drive, own property, work and basically do what any other person can do, so long as the world doesn't know we're TG.  Once they do, things change.

If police started targeting us and beating us or arresting us, or if we saw the murder rate for TGs sharply rise, then maybe that would be the wake up call.  But I have yet to see the TG community act as a cohesive unit.  We are, for the most part, a bunch of individuals who have only one thing in common.  And the only place we really get together in on the Internet.

As long as we hear, "I'm doing okay."  "I can't be bothered."  "That's your problem." we are going to remain apart.  If each and every TG in the world came out and was immediately slapped down by the prejudice that runs so deep in society, I think each and every one of us would get off our duff and fight back.  But as long as we have a closet in which to hide, I don't see that happening.

Julie

[heatherrose]

We can vote, drive, own property, work and basically do what any other person can do, so long as the world doesn't know we're TG.  Once they do, things change.

I have personally experienced this myself. Not knowing that I already
had face to face dealings with a customer facility in Alabama, a co-worker
"warned" them that a co-worker was going to be coming in to their facility,
letting them know that even though he dressed like a woman, he was
a good person and did his job very well. To which they replied
by calling my boss, telling him not to send that ->-bleeped-<-got.

[Bellaon7]

I have personally experienced this myself. Not knowing that I already
had face to face dealings with a customer facility in Alabama, a co-worker
"warned" them that a co-worker was going to be coming in to their facility,
letting them know that even though he dressed like a woman, he was
a good person and did his job very well. To which they replied
by calling my boss, telling him not to send that ->-bleeped-<-got.

theese are the kind of comments many if not most of us, especialy us older ts/tg's grow up hearing our whole lives. who wants to be thought of as "that ->-bleeped-<-got" or "that ->-bleeped-<- like the ones in the back ad pages in hustler"? this is a huge obsticle for many of to get past & began to be true to ourselves. i know it was for me, i was lucky enough to reach the point where just don't care what others think or say, yet am still able to feel & express compasion towards others. when i rent sad movies that i love i can never watch them all the through in one sitting.during the intense parts i have to pause & watch something else untill i can compose myself enough to get through it. @ the same time i can be taunted or hear whats being said behind my back & feel no emotional response at all.

[Steffi]

i was lucky enough to reach the point where just don't care what others think or say, yet am still able to feel & express compassion towards others. when i rent sad movies that i love i can never watch them all the through in one sitting.during the intense parts i have to pause & watch something else untill i can compose myself enough to get through it. @ the same time i can be taunted or hear whats being said behind my back & feel no emotional response at all.

Yeah, most of the time I'm much the same ..... but do still waver so once in a while I feel like crying when someone is cruel to me ..... or, much less frequently, still feel like punching someones lights out (shame on me, but I am working on it  )

[Bellaon7]

Yeah, most of the time I'm much the same ..... but do still waver so once in a while I feel like crying when someone is cruel to me ..... or, much less frequently, still feel like punching someones lights out (shame on me, but I am working on it  )

ha, us older women grow some rough ol' bark on us! but for the luv of God don't pee us off! 

[tekla]

There has been no hangings, Stonewall incidents

Stonewall, and Compton's in SF were both in 'drag' spaces, as they were referred to back then. TG all the way.  They attacked the gender non-conformists first - its just that in both places people fought back.

[Julie Marie]

They attacked the gender non-conformists first - its just that in both places people fought back.

Gender non-conformity is easily identifiable and therefore easy to target.  Plenty of the L & G population are gender non-conformists (GNC) and that's why the initial exclusion of T in ENDA was so ridiculous.  The LGs who were for it were shooting their GNC brothers & sisters in the back.

The DQs who were targeted at Stonewall and Compton's were probably gay and thus the gay outrage.  Most who identify only as TG don't feel a kinship to DQs and are probably less (or not at all) outraged by them being targeted.  For some reason, it seems TGs rarely are outraged by any sort of persecution, discrimination, prejudice or oppression unless it affects us directly.  It's as if we accept it as part of being TG.

There's another thread here about biggest fears in transitioning and it's very active.  Yet if we worked to end the ignorance, hatred, prejudice, most of those fears wouldn't be a problem.  So the TG community has fears of being rejected, misunderstood, discriminated against, and is more than happy to complain about it but no one wants to do anything about it.  Trying to get TGs to band together for a common cause is like herding cats.

Julie

[ceili]

It's been my own personal experience that ts/tg have no or little want for standing out or any uneeded attention. Yet I've tried to fight back against the wall with reckless abandon on my own with little success. I value freedom in all forms above anything else, yet have not been able to move this wall on my own. I am hopelessly introverted, yet am coming to the realization that I cannot accomplish anything to help ourselves on my own. We are not organized, by our nature, the way the Gay community has & have helped themselves. I'm not asking for your opinion on my opinions, observances, or point of veiw. I would however ask for your own opinions on what/how we can began to help oursevles. Thank you!

You confuse me to no end, because in one thread you applaud someone who says that post-transition they are so far removed from being TS/TG that they don't identify as such anymore and the only TS/TG related activities they participate in are posting here in the post-op, post-transition sections. You applaud that person and say you hope most do the same and then you post this? I don't get it. Not trying to attack you, I just don't understand it and am hoping to gain an understanding of your mindset.

[Bellaon7]

You confuse me to no end, because in one thread you applaud someone who says that post-transition they are so far removed from being TS/TG that they don't identify as such anymore and the only TS/TG related activities they participate in are posting here in the post-op, post-transition sections. You applaud that person and say you hope most do the same and then you post this? I don't get it. Not trying to attack you, I just don't understand it and am hoping to gain an understanding of your mindset.

i was saying that i understand why someone post op isn't going to to hang around ts/tg forums after & hoped that was the case for many, as opposed to being stuck in the middle of transition for so long like me. none the less i would also hope that they stay active in the political/legal fight for our rights. there's a great deal of help here for those begining the proccess of transitionig so i could understand someome post op hanging out in post op support forums, not give up on the fight for ts/tg rights. 

[Julie Marie]

i was saying that i understand why someone post op isn't going to to hang around ts/tg forums after & hoped that was the case for many, as opposed to being stuck in the middle of transition for so long like me. none the less i would also hope that they stay active in the political/legal fight for our rights. there's a great deal of help here for those beginning the process of transitioning so i could understand someone post op hanging out in post op support forums, not give up on the fight for ts/tg rights.

You never lose the battle until you give up.

Julie

[ceili]

i was saying that i understand why someone post op isn't going to to hang around ts/tg forums after & hoped that was the case for many, as opposed to being stuck in the middle of transition for so long like me. none the less i would also hope that they stay active in the political/legal fight for our rights. there's a great deal of help here for those begining the proccess of transitionig so i could understand someome post op hanging out in post op support forums, not give up on the fight for ts/tg rights.

OK, now I understand and it makes sense. 

In all sincerity I hope you are able to reach all of your goals. That's exactly where I am at, sticking around to help organize and join in "the fight" and maybe be helpful to others in their transition along the way too.