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Difference between transsexual and transgender (not sure where to post this)

Started by djknyht, September 24, 2009, 11:21:59 PM

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djknyht

Slightly feel redic for posting this but for some reason (not sure if im jus retarted or over tired...but i never thought there was a difference until i looked it up) there seems to be a difference that I'm unaware of or just cant seem to grasp, i googled it and came across this...


'Transgender' describes a person, male or female, who dresses, behaves or presents themselves in a way that is different from their gender norm. Transgender includes ->-bleeped-<-s/crossdressers, Drag Queens/Kings, androgynes and genderqueers. It does NOT include transsexual people.

'Transsexual' describes a person, male or female, born with a congenital neurological intersex condition (Benjamin's syndrome). Although transsexualism almost always requires some form of medical intervention up to and including genital surgery, it is not defined by, nor restricted to, that treatment.




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Transsexualism is a medical condition, and transsexuals are not gender variant. Every true TS believes in a binary gender construct and therefore cannot be gender variant. Their bodies are wrong, not their gender (who they are).

->-bleeped-<- is a mere choice, and transgenders are gender variant since they will never be completely women and refuse to behave as men. They are something between men and women and are happy like that, and don't want the surgery. Transgender is a term used to erase the identity and culture of true transsexuals - those who actually change sex.

Transgenders are mostly men who want to keep their original parts, maybe practice fetish, and have the rights and privileges of being a woman, without doing anything to earn such.


Lets look at the words:

Transsexual - Trans+ means "to cross" and the +sexual part refers to the physical body. To cross, there must be 2 options. If you cross a river, you are either on one side or the other. It also implies surgery, since that is the only way to change the body (sex).

Transgender - It is logically impossible. Trans+ means to cross, but gender refers to your brain and nature. Why would a person destroy their nature and become what they are not? It was a term coined by Charles "Virginia" Prince. He was a married crossdresser who hated TSs (those who actually need the surgery), but felt he was somehow better than ->-bleeped-<-s. So he wanted to distance himself from ->-bleeped-<-s and transsexuals and live somewhere between. He was even a terrorist according to some who claim to have been at Stonewall. Who else would throw IEDs at the police besides a terrorist?

----------------

People who identify as transgender or transsexual are usually people who are born with typical male or female anatomies but feel as though they've been born into the "wrong body." For example, a person who identifies as transgender or transsexual may have typical female anatomy but feel like a male and seek to become male by taking hormones or electing to have sex reassignment surgeries.

People who have intersex conditions have anatomy that is not considered typically male or female. Most people with intersex conditions come to medical attention because doctors or parents notice something unusual about their bodies. In contrast, people who are transgendered have an internal experience of gender identity that is different from most people.

Many people confuse transgender and transsexual people with people with intersex conditions because they see two groups of people who would like to choose their own gender identity and sometimes those choices require hormonal treatments and/or surgery. These are similarities. It's also true, albeit rare, that some people who have intersex conditions also decide to change genders at some point in their life, so some people with intersex conditions might also identify themselves as transgender or transsexual.

In spite of these similarities, these two groups should not be and cannot be thought of as one. The truth is that the vast majority of people with intersex conditions identify as male or female rather than transgender or transsexual. Thus, where all people who identify as transgender or transsexual experience problems with their gender identity, only a small portion of intersex people experience these problems.

It's also important to understand the differences between these two groups because in spite of some similarities they face many different struggles, including different forms of discrimination. The differences between transgender and transsexual and intersex have been understood by lawmakers in countries such as Australia where lawmakers have publicly acknowledged that people with intersex conditions have distinct needs from people who identify as transgender or transsexual.

People who identify as transgender or transsexual also face discrimination and deserve equality. We also believe that people with intersex conditions and folks who identify as transgender or transsexual can and should continue to work together on human rights issues; however, there are important differences to keep in mind so that both groups can work toward a better future.




so can someone see why im confused....anyone that can clear this up for me...im just tryingt o make sure im very well educated on all terms and such before i do start therapy...so that the doc cant throw any curve balls at me...if anyone catchs my drift


d.j

p.s sorry so long...
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Arch

Most of us actually DO use the term "transgender" as an umbrella term that includes transsexuals. I believe the term was first used as a way to distinguish between transsexuals and other gender-nonconforming people, and some folks do use the term that way. But in my experience in popular and scholarly spheres, transgender is usually a general term that includes transsexuals.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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Autumn

I see transgender as being gender dysphoric of some degree, and transsexual if you actually begin transition. It's like a pokemon leveling up and evolving by using a testosterstone or esterstone (as opposed to evolving to DragKing or DragQueen.)

/nerd.
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djknyht

Quote from: Autumn on September 25, 2009, 01:40:07 AM
I see transgender as being gender dysphoric of some degree, and transsexual if you actually begin transition. It's like a pokemon leveling up and evolving by using a testosterstone or esterstone (as opposed to evolving to DragKing or DragQueen.)

/nerd.

haha thanks that gives me some clearity...and i love the comparison to pokemon...hilarious
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SarahFaceDoom

I used transgender as an umbrella term.  Transsexuals are transgendered, just as crossdressers are.

These terms are defined on Susans fwiw, to cut down on just this kind of debate.
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Miniar

Every true TS believes in a binary gender construct and therefore cannot be gender variant.

Either, this is wrong, or I'm not a true transsexual, or I'm the exception that proves the rule.



"Everyone who has ever built anywhere a new heaven first found the power thereto in his own hell" - Nietzsche
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Steph

To add to the topic...

The following is from the Intersex Society of North America

Quote"Intersex" is a general term used for a variety of conditions in which a person is born with a reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn't seem to fit the typical definitions of female or male. For example, a person might be born appearing to be female on the outside, but having mostly male-typical anatomy on the inside. Or a person may be born with genitals that seem to be in-between the usual male and female types—for example, a girl may be born with a noticeably large clitoris, or lacking a vaginal opening, or a boy may be born with a notably small penis, or with a scrotum that is divided so that it has formed more like labia. Or a person may be born with mosaic genetics, so that some of her cells have XX chromosomes and some of them have XY.

Though we speak of intersex as an inborn condition, intersex anatomy doesn't always show up at birth. Sometimes a person isn't found to have intersex anatomy until she or he reaches the age of puberty, or finds himself an infertile adult, or dies of old age and is autopsied. Some people live and die with intersex anatomy without anyone (including themselves) ever knowing.

Which variations of sexual anatomy count as intersex? In practice, different people have different answers to that question. That's not surprising, because intersex isn't a discreet or natural category.

What does this mean? Intersex is a socially constructed category that reflects real biological variation. To better explain this, we can liken the sex spectrum to the color spectrum. There's no question that in nature there are different wavelengths that translate into colors most of us see as red, blue, orange, yellow. But the decision to distinguish, say, between orange and red-orange is made only when we need it—like when we're asking for a particular paint color. Sometimes social necessity leads us to make color distinctions that otherwise would seem incorrect or irrational, as, for instance, when we call certain people "black" or "white" when they're not especially black or white as we would otherwise use the terms.

In the same way, nature presents us with sex anatomy spectrums. Breasts, penises, clitorises, scrotums, labia, gonads—all of these vary in size and shape and morphology. So-called "sex" chromosomes can vary quite a bit, too. But in human cultures, sex categories get simplified into male, female, and sometimes intersex, in order to simplify social interactions, express what we know and feel, and maintain order.

So nature doesn't decide where the category of "male" ends and the category of "intersex" begins, or where the category of "intersex" ends and the category of "female" begins. Humans decide. Humans (today, typically doctors) decide how small a penis has to be, or how unusual a combination of parts has to be, before it counts as intersex. Humans decide whether a person with XXY chromosomes or XY chromosomes and androgen insensitivity will count as intersex.

In our work, we find that doctors' opinions about what should count as "intersex" vary substantially. Some think you have to have "ambiguous genitalia" to count as intersex, even if your inside is mostly of one sex and your outside is mostly of another. Some think your brain has to be exposed to an unusual mix of hormones prenatally to count as intersex—so that even if you're born with atypical genitalia, you're not intersex unless your brain experienced atypical development. And some think you have to have both ovarian and testicular tissue to count as intersex.

Rather than trying to play a semantic game that never ends, we at ISNA take a pragmatic approach to the question of who counts as intersex. We work to build a world free of shame, secrecy, and unwanted genital surgeries for anyone born with what someone believes to be non-standard sexual anatomy.

By the way, because some forms of intersex signal underlying metabolic concerns, a person who thinks she or he might be intersex should seek a diagnosis and find out if she or he needs professional healthcare.

-={LR}=-
Enjoy life and be happy.  You won't be back.

WARNING: This body contains nudity, sexuality, and coarse language. Viewer discretion is advised. And I tend to rub folks the wrong way cause I say it as I see it...

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Eva Marie

I had some problems with the following.

Quote
->-bleeped-<- is a mere choice

Well, i'm glad to know that! It should be simple for me to "unchoose" GID now  :laugh:

Quote
and transgenders are gender variant since they will never be completely women and refuse to behave as men........

Kind of leaves out the genetic girls that are TG  ???

Quote
Transgenders are mostly men who want to keep their original parts, maybe practice fetish, and have the rights and privileges of being a woman, without doing anything to earn such.

or perhaps they were born genetic girls, or perhaps they are androgyne, or perhaps they have a life situation that precludes transition, and so on. Lots of people are TG without choosing SRS.

fetish? not so much   ???
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Steph

Quote from: riven_one on September 25, 2009, 10:05:05 AM
...Lots of people are TG without choosing SRS.

One of the points/differences the OP was trying to make.  ::)

-=LR}=-
Enjoy life and be happy.  You won't be back.

WARNING: This body contains nudity, sexuality, and coarse language. Viewer discretion is advised. And I tend to rub folks the wrong way cause I say it as I see it...

http://www.facebook.com/switzerstephanie
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sweetstars

I DON'T like the transgender umbrella term, because the umbrella is too wide.  Folks who have transitioned sex (transsexuals) are very different than gender nonconforming folks who identify with thier birth sex.  There should be a CLEAR seperation of terms to make it abundently clear to people the difference.

I am transsexual and I am intersex (I was born infertile, with had genital surgery as an infant because I had atypical genitials).  I transitioned my assigned sex, not my gender.  There is nothing transgender about me.  I was born intersex and transitioned my assigned sex. 

I have to agree except with the last part.  I do not like grouping transgender and transsexual folks together. Being transsexual is a medical state that requires corrective means.  Being transgender is not.  Call me a sepratist...but that is my opinion and I am sticking to it.  I don't like the association.

I should note though, benjimans syndrome, is a load of crock, there is no such thing. 

The sooner they drop the umbrella association, the better.  I am getting sick of getting grouped with folks who identify with thier birth sex.  It infuriates me to no end.  I am not a drag queen or CD, so quit making the association.  I am a woman with a correctible medical condition.  Plain and simple. 

Post Merge: September 25, 2009, 02:25:52 PM

Quote from: riven_one on September 25, 2009, 10:05:05 AM
I had some problems with the following.

Well, i'm glad to know that! It should be simple for me to "unchoose" GID now  :laugh:

Kind of leaves out the genetic girls that are TG  ???

or perhaps they were born genetic girls, or perhaps they are androgyne, or perhaps they have a life situation that precludes transition, and so on. Lots of people are TG without choosing SRS.

fetish? not so much   ???

Don't confuse being transsexual and the term transgender. You completely missed the point of the post.  If you are transitioning to live full time as a woman, are on HRT, and identify as a woman...thats TRANSSEXUAL, NOT TRANSGENDER.  Get what is being said here straight. 
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Arch

Quote from: Miniar on September 25, 2009, 08:57:15 AM
Every true TS believes in a binary gender construct and therefore cannot be gender variant.

Either, this is wrong, or I'm not a true transsexual, or I'm the exception that proves the rule.

I am a guy, not a girl or something else. That doesn't mean that I subscribe to the binary model...the definition above makes "true transsexuals" sound pretty blinkered, doesn't it?

At the same time, I know that in some ways I will always be a hybrid. I was brought up as a girl, and for many years I tried to conform to that label (I still have the scars from those years). I still have some female anatomical structures, and I'm still struggling to define myself as a man.

Post Merge: September 25, 2009, 12:29:51 PM

Quote from: sweetstars on September 25, 2009, 02:14:51 PM
Don't confuse being transsexual and the term transgender. You completely missed the point of the post.  If you are transitioning to live full time as a woman, are on HRT, and identify as a woman...thats TRANSSEXUAL, NOT TRANSGENDER.  Get what is being said here straight.

Not quite...IF you use transgender as an umbrella term. Some do and some don't.

I agree that the umbrella has disadvantages, but it also has advantages. For now, at least in my experience, it's more common to use the word transgender as an umbrella term.

I should also point out that Susan's Place specifically includes transsexuals under the umbrella...I'm just sayin'.

Of course, since I'm fully transitioned and don't knowingly exhibit any "feminine" mannerisms, dress, or other characteristics...does that mean that I'm not trans anymore? I think it's up to the individual to decide, but that can be problematic, too.

It's a hard problem.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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Sarah Louise

Ok, you Googled this, where exactly did you get this material from.  I would like to view it and see the context of the material, what the author's stance is on Transgendered/ Transexuals, does the author have an agenda.

-------------------------

Is this where you got part of the information?

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071108235143AAS6JOo

If so, I don't see any research showing where that "opinion" came from.

Sarah L.
Nameless here for evermore!;  Merely this, and nothing more;
Tis the wind and nothing more!;  Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore!!"
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GamerJames

I think the original article is quite biased and closed-minded.

These are just my opinions, they may or may not relate to anyone else's:

I don't necessarily believe in a binary gender construct as the "only" construct. I see a whole spectrum and I think that everyone along the spectrum deserves respect and validation. Now, as far as my gender goes, I fit firmly in the "male" category. I'm not a woman, I'm not genderqueer, but does that mean that nobody can be? No. When it comes to my sexual orientation, I'm closer to the "likes girls" side, but not enough that I'm willing to put myself in an exclusionary "box" that says I only like girls, etc. But when it comes to my gender, I'm quite happy with the exclusionary box of "male".

As Arch said, I'm never going to be a bio-guy. I've spent 30 years living as a woman (the best that I could, at least), and being treated like a woman, socialized as one, etc. Does that make me less of a guy? No. That just means that I have a different perspective to offer (as do many of us).

As for using Transgender as an umbrella term, I'm completely happy with that, but am also respectful that not everyone feels the same way. For me, transgender people may be any of the following: transsexual, genderqueer, intersex, or even "other". But that doesn't mean that ALL transsexual, genderqueer, intersex or "other" people ARE transgender. They have a right to fit under that umbrella if they feel comfortable with the term, but there should be no expectation that everyone who "could" be seen as transgender "should" do so.

Personally, I identify as the following:
- Transgender
- Transsexual
- More simply: trans
- FTM
- MTM
- Male
- Man
- Guy
- Dude
- Person
- Queer
- A member of the LGBTQ community
- And most importantly: human.

Whether others like me choose to utilize some, all or none of those labels, and any other that feels right to them, doesn't change how I identify myself, our similarities are similarities whether we label ourselves the same way or not. Our differences are what makes us unique, again, independent of what we choose to call ourselves. And how I identify myself (especially in regards to using TS and TG) doesn't need to affect how any one else identifies themselves either.
♫ Oh give me a home, where the trans people roam, and the queers and the androgynes play... ♫

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Steph

Quote from: Sarah Louise on September 25, 2009, 02:46:59 PM
Ok, you Googled this, where exactly did you get this material from.  I would like to view it and see the context of the material, what the author's stance is on Transgendered/ Transexuals, does the author have an agenda.

-------------------------

Is this where you got part of the information?

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071108235143AAS6JOo

If so, I don't see any research showing where that "opinion" came from.

Sarah L.

The OP seems to gotten the information provided by "Purple Girl" and others on Yahoo Answers here:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071108235143AAS6JOo

-={LR}=-
Enjoy life and be happy.  You won't be back.

WARNING: This body contains nudity, sexuality, and coarse language. Viewer discretion is advised. And I tend to rub folks the wrong way cause I say it as I see it...

http://www.facebook.com/switzerstephanie
  •  

Sarah Louise

Nameless here for evermore!;  Merely this, and nothing more;
Tis the wind and nothing more!;  Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore!!"
  •  

Eva Marie

Quote from: sweetstars on September 25, 2009, 02:14:51 PM
Don't confuse being transsexual and the term transgender. You completely missed the point of the post.  If you are transitioning to live full time as a woman, are on HRT, and identify as a woman...thats TRANSSEXUAL, NOT TRANSGENDER.  Get what is being said here straight.

I don't believe that I missed anything. I do understand the difference between TG and TS. I don't believe that whoever wrote the quoted material does, however. I believe that the sections that I quoted are quite clear in their wrongness. For example:

    "->-bleeped-<- is a mere choice"

Really? A "mere" choice?

    "and transgenders are gender variant since they will never be completely women and refuse to behave as men........"

Again, TS or TG genetic girls are totally ignored with this statement.

    "Transgenders are mostly men who want to keep their original parts, maybe practice fetish, and have the rights and privileges of being a woman, without doing anything to earn such."

Mostly men? Really? Fetish?

What parts of the above do you disagree with?
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Janet_Girl

Per Site Terms and Definitions:

QuoteTransgender: an inclusive umbrella term which covers anyone who transcends their birth gender for any reason. This includes but is not limited to Androgynes, Crossdressers, Drag kings, Drag queens, Intersexuals, Transsexuals, and ->-bleeped-<-s

QuoteTranssexual: a person who is mentally one gender, but has the body of the other. They desire to live and be accepted as a member of the mental gender, this is generally accompanied by the strong desire to make their body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatments.

Hope that helps.

Janet
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HelenW

When I do Trans 101 talks, I describe the definitions of transgender and transsexual by using the analogy of metals.  Gold, zinc, steel, aluminium, etc. are all quite different in many ways with unique properties for each type but they are still gathered together under the word "metals."  "Transgender" is a group name, a genus if you will, "transsexual," "drag king," "genderqueer," "androgyne," etc. are part of that genus.

Some people rebel against this definition because they don't like the other groups that fall under the term transgender.  I think it's their right to avoid that designation if they wish.  What I don't agree with, however, is the tendency of some people to disparage and use inflammatory rhetoric when talking about the other groups in order to elevate their native group in some sort of hierarchy or to blame the other groups for real and imagined prejudices held by the general public.  Put the blame where it belongs, on the ignorance and fear that people hold onto when confronted by gender variant people.

"Transgender" is mainly a sociopolitical term.  It's not about any one person in particular, it's about all of us.  Does the term reflect each of us exactly?  No, of course not.  No general term can but there is value in the term for many purposes.  Let's not fight those in our own community for selfish reasons related to individual identity values.  We need to keep our eye on the larger enemy and defeat that first.
FKA: Emelye

Pronouns: she/her

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Eva Marie

I've been thinking about this thread all night long. That tends to happen when I need to revisit something.

I posted in haste last night, without really thinking it through. And like they say in poker, a card laid is a card played.

I'm think that i'm going to have to reform my own idea of what TG means, using the board's definition of TG (and emlye's excellent description of it) as a guideline. There are many things about that definition that I really don't care for, but that is neither here nor there, not does it matter if I agree with the stated definition. It is what it is. I know that this topic has been beat to death in the past (I remember a few of those posts), and those definitions are there for a reason.

It was not my purpose or aim to stir up trouble on the board. If I did, I apologize. I'll try to do better next time  :)
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