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Started by Wenz1, September 29, 2009, 03:32:37 AM

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Wenz1

 :( Your thoughts on this  http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/2881316/What-is-it-like-to-be-neither-female-nor-male

Post Merge: September 29, 2009, 03:38:38 AM

:( I would like to hear some feed back from some Intersex people out there on this  Thanks From  Wendy ( PS I'm a transsexual  not Intersex-ed ) But I do know a good few Intersex-ed people  XXXXX
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Northern Jane

Your link didn't work but I found what I think is the same article at http://groups.google.com/group/transgender-news/browse_thread/thread/bcf4e664a564a9f3

I have been involved with the Intersex community for a number of years now and IS people run the gambit from "normal" identification, either end, to anywhere in between. Most identify as male or female and some identify as one or the other with parts of the opposite.

Certainly with recent events making the news, there has been a flurry of activity with the media and many more IS people are speaking out and getting involved in educating people, including the medical professionals who, in most cases, have no idea how badly they can screw up a person's life.

The general consensus among the IS people that I know is #1 stop infant surgeries and wait until the child can TELL the doctors what they want, and #2 stop hiding everything - be honest with the child about their IS condition and don't make it something shameful or "dirty" - it is perfectly natural!

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Steph

You may want to visit the Intersex Society of North America website found here:

http://www.isna.org/

A very good read.

What is interesting is the Societies views on TG, TS.  Firstly they don't include themselves with TG's or TS.  Secondly the Society differentiates between TG and TS.  Interesting.  Their faq is here:

http://www.isna.org/faq/transgender

-={LR}=-
Enjoy life and be happy.  You won't be back.

WARNING: This body contains nudity, sexuality, and coarse language. Viewer discretion is advised. And I tend to rub folks the wrong way cause I say it as I see it...

http://www.facebook.com/switzerstephanie
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Northern Jane

ISNA no longer has the support of the majority of Intersex individuals and is not considered representative of IS opinion. A far better information source that is supported by the IS community is OII

http://www.intersexualite.org/Index.html
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Steph

Quote from: Northern Jane on September 29, 2009, 07:22:28 PM
ISNA no longer has the support of the majority of Intersex individuals and is not considered representative of IS opinion. A far better information source that is supported by the IS community is OII

http://www.intersexualite.org/Index.html

Thanks for the link Jane.

-={LR}=-

Post Merge: September 29, 2009, 07:36:03 PM

Based on the info found in both sites I would recommend that staff here at Susan's review the definition of Intersex they use in the "Standard Terms and Definitions quoted for convienience below:

QuoteIntersexual: a person born with the full or partial sex organs of both sexes; with underdeveloped or ambiguous sex organs; a sex chromosome karyotype other than XX or XY; or sex hormone receptor problems which prevent normal absorption of Estrogen or Androgens. Intersexual persons may seek to make their body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatments.

Not quite standard.

-={LR}=-
Enjoy life and be happy.  You won't be back.

WARNING: This body contains nudity, sexuality, and coarse language. Viewer discretion is advised. And I tend to rub folks the wrong way cause I say it as I see it...

http://www.facebook.com/switzerstephanie
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Wenz1

 :) Thank you both for the links  XXXX Wendy I am trying to understand more about Intersex  and what it is all about Again thank you XXX
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Zelane

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rejennyrated

#7
I think one of the big problems is that like many other medical terms Intersex is a very broad term which covers a vast variety of different conditions all of which can have subtly different outcomes and effects on a persons development of self identity.

And indeed the line between transgender and intersex is not as well defined as some in both communities would like to believe. I myself existed for many years precisely on that borderline with, to some extent, a foot in both camps. It was only when I had to have some complex medical investigations at the age of 47 (for a problem the details of which I won't go into) that the evidence finally emerged which settled the issue and proved that I had in fact been intersex all along. Up until then, although I had had some suspicions I would have said I was Transsexual.

By the time I had the evidence it was academic anyway as I had already gone through the full transition and surgical proceedures nearly 30 years earlier!

But being intersex involves so many different conditions. Just look it up in a medical directory. So it isn't surprising that some of us (like me) feel that we are one gender or another, and others of us don't. Neither is wrong. Likewise some of us elect for surgery, some us don't, again neither is wrong.

The only things that are wrong are, when society tries to force or bully someone into compliance with a set of rules for which they are not well suited, or when some doctor has the arrogance to presume to mutilate someone before they are old enough to make their own internal identity choice clear.

I would always have chosen female, but others make a different choice or indeed do not acknowlege that they should have to make a choice at all.

So the really important thing is that society allows EVERYONE whether, intersex, trans or just boring old vanilla, the freedom to be whatever they feel comfortable being.

I suppose what I am saying is that as humans we are often far to keen on labels and categories and rules. But the fact is nature is infinitely more variable in it's expression than our narrow definitions ever allow. So rather than trying to label and understand a better way is to just accept and embrace one another.

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sweetstars

I should note...I don't consider myself transgender, at all.  I am an intersex transitioner.  I had a surgery as an infant to correct my genitals, and even without the grafting scars had noticible differences.  My hormone sensitivities and levels were...needless to say odd.  I have been diagnosed.  I was assigned male.  I don't want to get into the diagnosis, because the current technology was not available so they made thier best guess.  I do have an official diagnosis though, but it is from when I was a child.

I was told I was infertile around 12 or 13.  My mother doesn't understand the conditions I was diagnosed as a child...are considered intersex syndromes. 

I should note, that I don't identify with transgender, and I don't think either transsexual or intersex belongs in transgender umbrella because both are medical conditions in my eyes.  Transition was about correcting a surgical and medical errors that occured when I was a child, and the fact I had no choice over my own fate. 

I do have to agree though...being intersex sucks.
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Ms Bev

Like others have said, it was a good read,
but the pro-slash-nouns pissed me off.


Bev
1.) If you're skating on thin ice, you might as well dance. 
Bev
2.) The more I talk to my married friends, the more I
     appreciate  having a wife.
Marcy
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noeleena

Hi...
Just a side thought . my friend is i s . & we get on so well . theres not much i dont know .about........ now like me this is the hard bit . how should you refer to my friend . in this case as she . yes just 6 months ago had corrective surgery.  so is pleased with that . she has about 3 friends . real friends . & most of her life was a hell .  even now its not that good .  i m a andro .
      so in many ways i know what its like mentaly . psychologically & emotionally.    really . its bloody hard . i take our grand kid & we stay with her . shes neat . yet is not a part of the community . i take her out with us . & we have a neat time .
    lack of understanding . cant be botherd to get to know her .
some years ago she was in a diving club yet had to hide who she was . so its very hard for some . of cause the hormones play havic & all the rest of the detail going on in side . the body changes .

i dont idenifie with the ts or cd s . becaues i am not one
yet that does not stop me from having friendships with those who are . like my friend . we are all different . yet we can get along .
...noeleena...
Hi. from New Zealand, Im a woman of difference & intersex who is living life to the full.   we have 3 grown up kids and 11 grand kid's 6 boy's & 5 girl's,
Jos and i are still friends and  is very happy with her new life with someone.
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Wenz1

Quote from: noeleena on October 18, 2009, 04:32:47 AM
Hi...
Just a side thought . my friend is i s . & we get on so well . theres not much i dont know .about........ now like me this is the hard bit . how should you refer to my friend . in this case as she . yes just 6 months ago had corrective surgery.  so is pleased with that . she has about 3 friends . real friends . & most of her life was a hell .  even now its not that good .  i m a andro .
      so in many ways i know what its like mentaly . psychologically & emotionally.    really . its bloody hard . i take our grand kid & we stay with her . shes neat . yet is not a part of the community . i take her out with us . & we have a neat time .
    lack of understanding . cant be botherd to get to know her .
some years ago she was in a diving club yet had to hide who she was . so its very hard for some . of cause the hormones play havic & all the rest of the detail going on in side . the body changes .

i dont idenifie with the ts or cd s . becaues i am not one
yet that does not stop me from having friendships with those who are . like my friend . we are all different . yet we can get along .
...noeleena...
:) I was under the inspection Intersex people didn't take hormones  of any kind As I know  3 intersex people in town  who are not on any treatment as in  hormones

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noeleena

Hi.
For most.    more likly not.  some do . as the age of the person . & what is happening in side . my friend started one way like a female . then some years later on her body started changeing over to male . then back again . this time its female . so you can quess the termoil she went through . the body can do funny things . no idear as to what starts the body to change in her case . i do know its not a detail that has a easy way to do a write up on . chemical changes in the body .
   Being I S   the body has both sets in some cases . of both t & e . shes bigger than i   body wise , taller as well a 6 foot er . each person is so different .
if her body had continuied on as a male why she have breasts . theres a lot more to this . so its not easy to answer 
Even some D R s would not help her .  so its no wonder she had problems . i m talking about 60 odd years . i m 62.
& yes in some cases they do need h r t .  heres s an other detail . women some .. need h r t . so same for her . not so much to make her  a female .  just to keep her maintaned as a woman . theres so much on this alone  for  i s ....    you really need a case study . & then some one else will be different . the other detail is talk with some one whos I S . & is in there 60 s see what you come up with .
...noeleena...               
Hi. from New Zealand, Im a woman of difference & intersex who is living life to the full.   we have 3 grown up kids and 11 grand kid's 6 boy's & 5 girl's,
Jos and i are still friends and  is very happy with her new life with someone.
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rejennyrated

Quote from: Wenz1 on October 18, 2009, 08:40:42 PM
:) I was under the inspection Intersex people didn't take hormones  of any kind As I know  3 intersex people in town  who are not on any treatment as in  hormones

It depends on what form of intersex condition they have... remember intersex has many forms and, for example, aromatase excess, is not the same in its implications as partial or complete androgen insensitivity. It also depends on whether the person has elected to adopt one particular sex or whether they choose to live as intersex - and from what I have discovered quite a few do these days, at least in the UK.

The blood level reponses to taking hormones are often different from non intersexed people, and that can be at least a part of the way that some who are missed at birth and diagnosed later in life get do eventally spotted, although obviously there is a lot more too it than that.

But the answer is some do take hormones. Particularly those who have chosen to adopt a single gender and been surgically "altered"... although sometime the dosage regime is slightly different from what might otherwise be expected.
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Wenz1

Quote from: rejennyrated on October 19, 2009, 02:54:13 AM
It depends on what form of intersex condition they have... remember intersex has many forms and, for example, aromatase excess, is not the same in its implications as partial or complete androgen insensitivity. It also depends on whether the person has elected to adopt one particular sex or whether they choose to live as intersex - and from what I have discovered quite a few do these days, at least in the UK.

The blood level reponses to taking hormones are often different from non intersexed people, and that can be at least a part of the way that some who are missed at birth and diagnosed later in life get do eventally spotted, although obviously there is a lot more too it than that.

But the answer is some do take hormones. Particularly those who have chosen to adopt a single gender and been surgically "altered"... although sometime the dosage regime is slightly different from what might otherwise be expected.
THANK YOU FOR THAT
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Danacee

Quote from: Chantal on October 30, 2009, 05:53:36 PM
First, I've always been a girl but was born with pais (grade 2), assigned male at birth.

Okay, so besides some correctional surgery how does that make you any different than an early transitioner. Sorry for the necrobump but I've been reading a few post in this subforum and your tone is of that you use pAIS as a means to lord yourself as being 'more female' than other transwomen. Its fine to be intersexed, but if you use it as a method to distance yourself from other trans people you have no place on this forum. This forum is for people who transitioned at one point or another, and this subforum is for those who are trans and also happened to have been born intersexed.
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rejennyrated

With respect I think all we are proving is that everyone is different.

I too was PAIS. Probably grade 2 because I was Hypospadias but it's difficult to be sure because amazingly I wasn't officially diagnosed until many years after my SRS and then only by chance because of some in depth hospital investigations and a medical history review done because of a related problem.

The thing is, posssibly because of the late diagnosis, I always believed I was just transsexual, but I did transition very early and these days, to be honest I don't really see that much difference between myself and other early transitioners without any IS condition.

I certainly don't see myself as any more genuinely female than them. My Y chromasome may be damaged, but it does exist, and the fact is I was assigned as male at birth... I might wish it were otherwise, and yes from my own internal perspective I have always been female - but I suspect that many transpeople also feel that, and the inescapable fact is that I was originally assigned as male at birth, and therefore had to transition, however wrong I feel that was.

But each of us has to deal with this, mentally, in the best way we can. So I think it is really a case of live and let live.
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rejennyrated

Quite so Chantal. I don't think it's right for anyone to judge or criticise anyone else either.

I wasn't criticising you by the way, just trying to clarify for Danacee that actually we're all different and we all have to deal with this in our own way. That's what makes this place so fascinating.

Like I said best to live and let live.  :)
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noeleena

Hi...
  One of the problems i face . is trying to explain . details about my self . with out seeing the person face to face . it s very hard . & i know from my back ground . i dont allways get it right . i can just try . & with out hurting others .
  & Being on these our fourms  helps me to talk about a lot of things . so if any of us dont quite get it right .
  There is allway s this thought .....
         we are all so different . & that says . because of that . we can only learn . how to get to know each other . if we hear what each of us has to say . & may be even . not say or comment . on some detail . or point ... 
Will we ever know what s going on inside of each of us .  I have thought s about my self . that i dont have answer s for . & at 62 ..   so i m still learning ........
Any way just a thought . on being there , or here for you .s ...

...noeleena...
Hi. from New Zealand, Im a woman of difference & intersex who is living life to the full.   we have 3 grown up kids and 11 grand kid's 6 boy's & 5 girl's,
Jos and i are still friends and  is very happy with her new life with someone.
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