If you don't believe in god, does it follow that you must believe in the reverse

[heatherrose]

...but I'm quite sure theres no boogey man in my closet.

Until...you open the door and she/he/it introduces her/him/itself.

[lisagurl]

I personally feel that organized religion of all sorts is the biggest hoax in the world, and best manipulation tactic ever.

Close but not as much as the hoax that consumerism is the path to happiness.

[Kay]

Very well put Ketsy. (Wow, that brings back memories from my foreign language classes.  Aren't languages fun?) 
.
= = = = = = = = = =
Miniar:  Awesome quote.  I'm definitely going to remember that one.
.
= = = = = = = = = =
Heatherrose:  I'll have to respectfully disagree in technical ways...even if I agree that politics is often the end result of religion.  Religions are interesting things.  My parents bopped around to enough of them when I was young that I got to see a lot of different variants of the christian faith.  Most of the christian church-goers consider themselves to be "sheep," with the pastor or ultimately jesus (a concept that is easily co-opted) being the shepherd.  The problem with sheep, is that they aren't too bright, they're easily frightened (ie. the Bush years), they often don't think for themselves as much as they should, and they're easily herded to wherever someone wants them to go.  People who self-identify as "sheep" are sure to be prime targets for any political wolf, because they're easy pickin's.   Not all religious folk are this way.  Honestly, there are a lot of Catholics I know that I respect...because they don't follow the party line, and they do think for themselves. As with anything though, your mileage will vary person by person.  Religion doesn't have to be politics...but all too often it is.
= = = = = = = = = =
.
Jushi:  That's probably fairly accurate.  Though I'll have to protest the language used to describe it.  "On the fence" is something people in one yard or the other tend to use to try and imply a certain measure of discomfort...someone balancing between two ends that must eventually come down on one side or the other.   (Often using the story of a man mid-way between two apple trees, who starves to death unable to decide which one to eat from.) While I do consider myself in the middle of the two (I think a magical being saying "Let there be Light" is about as likely as a "Big Bang")...I'm not on any fence...
.
I look at it this way:
An astronomer tells me that there is a "Planet X" located 10,000,000 light years away at certain exact coordinates.  Considering the furthest ever found so far is at 17,000 light years, I'm skeptical...so I say, "It's possible...but due to our limitations we won't know in my lifetime, if ever."  I don't really feel the need to address the topic again.  It's a theory that I spent a lot of time on in my youth, but ultimately it doesn't effect me directly at all.  However, since the world is obsessed with "Planet X," obsessed with fighting over where it is...over how it is...over what it is...over the mystical way it effects the Earth...the subject constantly comes up.  Nasty neighbors throwing trash over the fence at each other as they fight, while I watch from my backyard and shake my head and sigh.

I'm not "on the fence" about the subject...I'm comfortably in my own yard.  I don't know, and I don't have to pretend that I know.  I don't have to pretend that there is enough evidence on either side to prove their arguments conclusively...nor do I have to waste any further time trying to decide between A and B....I'm C.  If one day one of them come to my door with new and exciting information about "Planet X", they can invite me to their barbeque, and I'll see if I like their yard any better than mine.  I somehow doubt it, but I won't be closed-minded to new information (or a free lunch ).
.
That said, there are people who are "on the fence"...but I don't consider them to really be agnostic, because they still view the world in those black and white...here or there...terms...which is why they're torn.  "Agnostic" isn't the same as "undecided."  It's about choosing something other than the 2 options originally offered.
.
There are far more shades of gray and color out there to be found that are unaccounted for in the black and white view of Atheism vs. Religion.  As many variations as found in the male-female paradigm we all know so well.  Ultimately, I think that's what you were saying.  Sorry about the rather long-winded  disputation...the "on the fence" idiom just tends to irk me when used to describe Agnostics, because to me it misrepresents what they are.
.
I'm not usually very vocal, but after rereading this...I have to say....good god (ignoring the irony of those words)...am I a rabid Agnostic?   

[heatherrose]

I'll have to respectfully disagree in technical ways...

No, you are not allowed to. 

Religion doesn't have to be politics...but all too often it is.

Politics is a system used to control the masses with the threat of violence.

Religion is a system used to control the masses with the threat of damnation.

[Jushi]

I am a militant Atheist.  I do not believe in ANY so called supernatural deities, at all.  None.  Zip.
They do not exist.  Period.  There is no heaven, there is no hell.  None other than the here and now.
You have your heaven or your hell NOW.  When you die, you are dead.  Lights out.  The synapses cease fire and your cells die and your memories die with you.  There is no "soul" or "spirit".  Period.

NO ONE and NO THING will ever convince me otherwise.

Personally, I am deeply offended by "religion" and when people start talking the stuff I take offense.
I bite my tongue and say nothing because most "religious" people will KILL you if you dare to disagree with their silly beliefs.

It's a very dangerous thing to be an Atheist in this world.  Funny thing, how the most violent and hateful people in the world are "religious"..

And that is where I stand on the issue.  I will not budge.  I will fight to the death for my right of freedom FROM religion.

I will NOT fight for anyone else's right to believe in invisible beings in the sky.

I normally keep this to myself but it was asked and I am being honest.
I do not mean to offend, I mean only to speak my piece in peace.

Be well. 

I find that "millitant" atheism is not too much better then religious extremism.. Being curt and rude does not change minds. Also, Silly beliefs aren't the problem. Its the opression of forcing beliefs upon others that is the problem. If people learn to believe what they want whilest not trying to force others to live by the rules they live by, Then religion wouldn't be an issue.

In short, People need to understand that the US has a separation of church and state.

I fight for Freedom. Freedom to believe in the abrahamic god, no god, Wotan, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
And no one's freedom should interfere with another's.

Now, I don't think its a great idea to spend one's life worshiping any diety. But I can only offer a kind heart and my own insight. And people will do what they will with it. Some people may see it my way, some may spit in my face for such blasphemey.

Life is short. Smile and move on.

[Jushi]

Oh?  And in what alternate universe is that?

Take a stroll through google images for "In god we trust" and get back with us..  --> http://tinyurl.com/yzue6pa

There is NO separation of "church" and state in this country or most any other country in the world.
MOST laws in this country are based on "Abrahamic law."

Until the "In god we trust" is removed from all forms of legal tender, from all public documents, from the faces of public buildings, until the 10 commandments are removed from court houses, capital buildings, until prayers are banned from football games in public schools until "swearing on the bible" is banned, until "god" is removed from national anthems and especially removed from the pledge of allegiance, there is NO SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE IN THIS COUNTRY.

I will NOT recite the pledge of allegiance nor sing the national anthem until those items are resolved.
I do not use paper money or coin because I do not support the phrases that are printed on them as they are NOT representative of me or my beliefs.

Thus I pointed out that people need to understand it.. No one asked you to recite the pledge, or sing the anthem. You're arguing for no reason hun. The attitude you have is very off putting and pointless.. It won't help you achieve your goal of spreading atheism, I assure you. For the sake of this forum, Please do not turn this thread into an idiotic flame fest. If you take further issue with what I say, I think it is best posted in the PMS zone.

[lisagurl]

Oh?  And in what alternate universe is that?

I am not keen on religion having a effect on my freedom and liberties also. But I think you need some history classes. Read the Federalist Papers and see the discussion on religion. Now as for" In God We Trust" it was the McCarthy era when people were afraid of communism, that the extremists lobbied the government to distinguish the Moral U.S. capitalism from Atheist Russian communism.  We did blacklist many people in that period in the name of democracy. The Demos is mob rule.  Now also it is not "Abrahamic law" but natural common sense that most all civilizations follow including Abraham. I could suggest a host of books but perhaps you would prefer to watch a class now on going at Harvard. You can find it at,

http://wgbh.org/programs/ProgramDetail.cfm?programID=429

[Kaitlyn]

NO ONE and NO THING will ever convince me otherwise.
...
And that is where I stand on the issue.  I will not budge.

I'm very sorry that you feel so outright hostile to religion.  I don't know what experience you had with it that burned you so, but I wish you could see that statements like those aren't logical or rational - you're basically saying you take atheism on faith, and preemptively reject evidence.

I bite my tongue and say nothing because most "religious" people will KILL you if you dare to disagree with their silly beliefs.

Do you really believe that, or is it just hyperbole?

[Julie Marie]

If you don't believe in god, does it follow that you must believe the reverse is true - no god, no creator, nothing?

My answer: No.  I haven't read the other posts so bear with me if I repeat anyone.

I was raised to believe God was a single almighty being.  Using that definition I have to answer no to your question.  There could be an entire society of beings that work in concert or just a few.  Is there something behind all we can't explain?  I believe there is.

I've read a lot of near death experiences.  There are a few commonalities I've noticed.  One is that when we pass to the other side we are immersed in love.  That is the best description of heaven I could ever ask for.  But I do not believe there has to be a supreme leader to keep the spiritual world in line.  When you leave this world you leave behind all the negativity of this world.  All there is left is love.

There's a lot to be learned from the NDEs, whether you believe it is real or imagined.  One person described his "life flashing before your eyes" experience as living everything you affected, good or bad, directly or indirectly, as if it had happened to you.  Punch someone in the face and you feel the fist hit you, the emotions that person felt, the hurt his/her family felt when they saw the cuts & bruises you inflicted and on and on. 

This guy was a sharp shooter in the Viet Nam war.  He described taking sight on a Viet Cong leader 1000 yards away, pulling the trigger and seeing his head explode through his sight.  In his NDE he felt the bullet hit the head, the confusion the target felt for a split second, the pain as the bullet's ripped through and the pain of the loss from the man's wife and children and family.

If you live your life knowing everything you, good and bad, will be lived as if it all happens to you, it will change a lot of how you act and react towards others.  That was one of the positives I learned from NDEs.  BTW, this man had two NDEs and both times he talked about being filled with love and joy and both times he fought the forces that told him he had to come back.  And he can't wait when it will finally be his turn to go home.

Julie

[finewine]

[...]
I've read a lot of near death experiences.  There are a few commonalities I've noticed.  One is that when we pass to the other side we are immersed in love.

Hypoxia, for one, causes a state of euphoria before you black out.  A lot of things happen to the traumatized/near death mind.  You can get that "life flashing before your eyes" sensation by jumping off a crane with a bungee tied to your ankle (at least the first time, when you really are afraid of death).  Having very nearly drowned once, I can personally vouch for some of these reported effects but, in hindsight, I can't find anything supernatural in any of them.

This guy was a sharp shooter in the Viet Nam war.  He described taking sight on a Viet Cong leader 1000 yards away, pulling the trigger and seeing his head explode through his sight.  In his NDE he felt the bullet hit the head, the confusion the target felt for a split second, the pain as the bullet's ripped through and the pain of the loss from the man's wife and children and family.

The velocity and damage a shot like that would make means it would surely be impossible for there to be conscious registration of pain or anywhere near enough time to process "confusion".  To be honest, virtually all this stuff can be more plausibly explained through a combination of the subjects confirmation bias/spiritual beliefs etc..   We know the mind is very pliant and that's what hypnotherapists and practitioners of NLP tap into.

I mean really, aside from the mystique and allure of these woo stories - what's more likely?  Intrinsic manifestion of clinically observed mental suggestion/delusion phenomena?  Or what these NDE folks blather on about?

Note that I'm not denying the finite possibility there's something in these various beliefs...it just surprises me that ostensibly intelligent people cling to them so passionately and unquestioningly.  Again, I put this down to confirmation bias.  Even the flimsiest of evidence seems to carry more weight when it aligns with what one wants to be true.

[Julie Marie]

Look up Dannion Brinkley.  Read "Saved By The Light".  From there let your curiosity take you where it will.  I did that.  I entered into this as an agnostic with a skeptical attitude but there were too many things that couldn't be explained. Everything you've said Finewine, I've looked into and it can be the explanation for some things but other things go unexplained.

But you're right, anything you set out to prove, you can.

We can't prove there's a God yet billions of people believe, without a doubt, there's a Supreme Being of some sort.  We believe the universe is 14 billion years old and was formed by the Big Bang, but what was before that?  When we reach the end of the universe, what's on the other side?

There are so many things our little human minds can't fathom we resort to belief rather than trying to answer all the questions.  I choose to believe what helps make me be a better, more caring person and I hope to leave this earth having made a positive difference, no matter how big or how small.

Julie

[Kaitlyn]

We can't prove there's a God yet billions of people believe, without a doubt, there's a Supreme Being of some sort.  We believe the universe is 14 billion years old and was formed by the Big Bang, but what was before that?  When we reach the end of the universe, what's on the other side?
[...]
There are so many things our little human minds can't fathom we resort to belief rather than trying to answer all the questions.

To be fair, it's not that we don't have the answers to those, it's that our questions don't make sense.  There's no "before time" or "outside the universe".  Further, the universe, though it has a shape, doesn't have any boundaries or "end".

[finewine]

[...]  I choose to believe what helps make me be a better, more caring person and I hope to leave this earth having made a positive difference, no matter how big or how small.

Oh I understand and no criticism was implied!

[...] There's no "before time" or "outside the universe".

You're quite correct and this is another one of those areas where we rapidly hit the limits of language.  There's no before time because time (this universe's arrow of time) started with the universe.  However, I do grok what people mean by the question, even though the question itself makes no sense.  If we consider universe to be a closed loop bubble that came into existence somewhere along the arrow of time in a hyperverse, one could ask the question about whether there were hyperversal precursor conditions because the frame of reference is no longer universal time which didn't exist "prior" but hyperversal time.

Of course, we don't know if such a concept is valid - but for theories like colliding m-branes to be viable, something like that is required - those interactions couldn't be happening on our time arrow, as it doesn't exist at that point.

[heatherrose]

So, the "answer" is beyond our understanding, supernatural.

[Jushi]

So, the "answer" is beyond our understanding, supernatural.

[only qouted because I began by answering this post.. the rest is a bit of a tangent]

That which we have yet to understand is not necessarily supernatural by default. Its merely beyond our understanding capabilities for the moment. May be well within our grasp in the future. It is merely unknown at this time. Trying to learn more and understand the unknown is far from easy, and we may never know in our lifetime. But I'm willing to embrace that. I'd rather walk with my eyes open in the dark, then with my eyes closed imagining a sun baked road.

Time is an invention of humans. The concept exists only because of Cause and Effect. Without Cause and Effect, there is no "Time" Thus, before The existance of the universe, There was no Time. The first Cause was the universe expanding into existance. Humans have a hard time understanding the concept of nonexistance, or the absence of "time". Its much easier for humans to believe in a being that always was and always is, that has magical powers to create and control all things. Because they don't think about it too hard. Most don't bother to question, what created this "god"?  And if they do, the answer is essentially. Its Magic! And the same answer is given for many questions.
The belief in god is the easy way out. It answers all the hard questions with.. Magic. And It gives people something to blame when they can't sort out their life. And something to look forward to if their life is aweful and beyond their control. And it gives the powerful a friendly mask to wear when they need to lead the believers.

[Kay]

To be fair, it's not that we don't have the answers to those, it's that our questions don't make sense. 

.
.
"Six by nine. Forty two."
"That's it. That's all there is."
"I always thought something was fundamentally wrong with the universe."
.
Sorry Kaitlyn...couldn't resist a 'Hitchhiker's' quote with that comment   
.
Questions and answers are most often about perspective.  The above quote makes no sense unless you're thinking in base 13...and really wasn't originally intended (by the author) to make any sense at all.  People have a habit of re -framing things so that they make sense to them on a personal level...regardless of whether any "Ultimate Question to The Meaning Of Life The Universe And Everything" was intended or not.
.
Still....the answer is most definitely 42. 

[Kaitlyn]

Still....the answer is most definitely 42. 

The question is "How many pounds of chocolate could a hungry Kaitlyn eat at this moment?"

[heatherrose]

Actually it is one less seventy and
four more than sixty-five.
A romantic dinner for two.

[Washu Chan]

I am undecided on the matter due to lack of clear evidence from either side.

Atheist side: There is a complete lack of evidence to support the existence of God there for (s)he must not exist.

Counter argument: Lack of evidence does not constitute evidence of lack.

So I am taking the middle ground on this one, there might be a God so I will be a nice person because it is nice to be nice and if there is a heaven for nice people when I die then that will be a happy bonus.

[Kaitlyn]

Well, what if heaven is only for the wicked?