The importance of dressing (or lack thereof)

[jesse]

i think there are other ways to esablish a persons readyness for hrt a requirement to dress appropriately is in fact inappropriate and downright sexist i wonder if this is more an established thing with male therapists as apposed to female. It implies that females should only were certain types of cloths and anyone proclaiming that gender should conform to it. This is strickly a male oriented oppinion as ive known many a woman who dressed in sweats for a majority of the day or in jeans and t-shirts niether of which would be considered suitable based on the standards outlined by at least one gp and a therapist i know. This requirement needs to be removed from their criteria it is dangerous, sexist and totally useless in evaluating ones readyness or suitability for hrt
jessica

[wabbit2]

Hi Noeleena,  I think I know you from a local NZ forum, my actual name is Amie by the way

Your quite right about medical professionals being conservative and for good reasons.  I certainly wouldn't suggest however you should just do as a counsellor asks to get what you want nor do i think a counsellor can tell you what you need.

What i do think is you should get what you need when you are ready.  HRT is a major step for anyone and you should only start on hormones when you are ready and I think any cousellor worth there salt will see this in you.  Though if you really don't get on with your counsellor i would totally suggest changing them; as just to repeat myself counsellors can't tell you who you are they can just facilitate and if you have no confidence in them how can you really be honest? (ok that is totally my opinion, far from professional)


Post Merge: October 19, 2009, 01:58:50 AM
Yeah get what your saying there.....its tough getting people to understand your internal feelings; i hope you have support outside these forums and counsellors for how you relate ....the great thing about life is the albility to be an individual but it is nice to share that individuality with others

Post Merge: October 19, 2009, 03:11:54 AM

i think there are other ways to esablish a persons readyness for hrt a requirement to dress appropriately is in fact inappropriate and downright sexist i wonder if this is more an established thing with male therapists as apposed to female.

You may be correct Jesse I have heard this from some of my friends before, and i admit my counsellor (male)did ask me to dress as a woman.  Though the majority of the time i wore jeans to be honest.

My counsellor did also ask me to try and socialise in woman's circles too which actually wasn't too much on an issue as i was pretty much entrenched in the lesbian community by then. 

Just to temper this thread though is it really unfair to see commitment to the gender you see yourself as? HRT is a serious commitment and there is many stories of people starting down this road and regretting it as it does have serious implications on your physiology.

Honestly if you aren't committed to a gender specifically there are many options in the gender spectrum.

[Asfsd4214]

Hon there are clothes and then there are clothes;  not all clothes designed primarily for men or woman would naturally look good on anyone.  Trust me there is plenty of womans items i would not wear as they don't suit me.

However, there are womans clothes that may look great on you too; such as certain t-shirts,  jeans,  cardi, trainers or whatever.....I really aren't trying to change your mind....just understand your point of view on why you feel certain clothes are off limits to you because of there "gender" definition.

I said that to them, their view seems to be that it has to be dresses and stuff. They don't seem to see it as proof that you're adjusting to a female roll as much as trying to see how you cope with looking ridiculous.

i think there are other ways to esablish a persons readyness for hrt a requirement to dress appropriately is in fact inappropriate and downright sexist i wonder if this is more an established thing with male therapists as apposed to female. It implies that females should only were certain types of cloths and anyone proclaiming that gender should conform to it. This is strickly a male oriented oppinion as ive known many a woman who dressed in sweats for a majority of the day or in jeans and t-shirts niether of which would be considered suitable based on the standards outlined by at least one gp and a therapist i know. This requirement needs to be removed from their criteria it is dangerous, sexist and totally useless in evaluating ones readyness or suitability for hrt
jessica

Actually both therapists I've seen, as well as the third I will probably see in december and the one doctor who specializes in trans issues in my state that I see in 2 weeks, are all women, and all as far as I know seem to agree with this dressing requirement. My doctor spoke with the psychiatrist I haven't seen yet, and the two impressions I got from her were that she not only requires dressing, but is concerned that 21 is too young to transition. And I have it on good authority from two people I've spoken too that the specialist doctor I haven't seen yet is no better.

Just to temper this thread though is it really unfair to see commitment to the gender you see yourself as? HRT is a serious commitment and there is many stories of people starting down this road and regretting it as it does have serious implications on your physiology.

Honestly if you aren't committed to a gender specially there are many options in the gender spectrum.

I am committed. There isn't the slightest part of me that can even imagine wanting to be male, and I have NEVER felt comfortable referring to myself as one my entire life.

Is it unfair for them to want to see that I'm committed? No. I was willing to do the counseling thing, but it's several months later now, and its gotten me absolutely nowhere. And I do think it's unfair for them to attach arbitrary requirements that won't help my well being in the slightest to satisfy their own mental checklist at complete disregard to any feelings I have on the subject. Especially when they tell me that it's apart of the "standards of care" and then can't even tell me where to get a copy or who publishes them (I've already checked the WPATH SoC plus a regionalized version of it published here by the transgender support group, neither require any such thing). And then when I finally bring up the fact that I can't find any such requirement, they simply resort to "ok maybe it doesn't say that, but I'm requiring it anyway".

Yeah, I do think that's unfair.

[Deanna_Renee]

I have never seen any 'rule' in the SOC that states that you need to dress in the target gender appropriate clothing, or that you need to humiliate yourself.

My therapist has suggested that I start going out dressed as a woman and get that experience of ummm... learning the mannerisms and developing the body english. But, I have been dressing in women's clothing since I was, maybe, 8 or 9, so I didn't think this was an unreasonable request. It certainly was not put forth as a hard and fast condition towards going ahead. He had already said that he considered me GID before this suggestion. Maybe part of it is that my therapist is a transman and has a much better personal understanding of what it is to be trans than what they read in a textbook or medical journal.

At this point the only thing keeping me from getting my letter for HRT is the lack of a job and a way to actually pay for the endo, blood work, physicals, doctors, and hormones. I haven't asked specifically for the letter, but he has made it pretty clear that he knows I am ready, but that I need a decent job and income and to get caught up on bills before being ready to start. I agree with him in this regard - I hate this economy.

I honestly don't know what to suggest to you, other than maybe try to find a therapist who is actually trans and not just consider themselves having trans experience. Perhaps a psychologist would be better than a psychiatrist, don't really know.

I wish you the best though,

Deanna

[kelliBennett]

I'll say this, clothes shouldn't matter. For some there the correct gender is screaming to get out, but there is that fear they might look ridiculous trying to dress as the opposite gender. Not only do I get this but so does my therapist. She told me from the start I was welcome to come as whatever I wanted.

I respected this fact that it was about the therapy and discussing things than about what I was wearing. It should never ever be about what you are wearing. We all have our own view of who we are.

Having said all that I haven't been there as a boy since the first few appointments. Simply I have learned to hide parts of my personality when presenting the world as a man (you could call it really Pavlovian in my case). I immediately feel uncomfortable. I just have always had that fear that people won't view him correctly if I don't act correctly.  Funny thing is, this isn't an issue the other way around I just am and people either accept it of they don't.

Now while I have mention that clothes should never be important, and they shouldn't. I simply love fashion. Always have. At one point in my life I tried to inject my sense of style into my life as a man (long ago, I made the effort to be what every one expected or at least try.) and I came out looking like an effeminate man. Which bothered me just as much since I wasn't that either.

As a woman it works and it works well. They are simply part of my self expression.

When she finally told me she would approve my letter for HRT (mined you I never once asked her for it, she volunteered) I asked her why she felt I was at that point. And she told me this.

"Of all my transgendered patients I have seen. You are the most well adjusted, knowledgeable, meticulous, thoughtful not to mention easily the best dressed. As you sit across from me all I see is a woman in not only personality, demeanor, and mannerisms, but also appearance. It simply is who you are are."

But as I said that is just me, what I wear isn't always important as how I wear it.

The most important thing is to be yourself and when you are comfortable dressing how you want to dress. There should be no rules regarding it.

If your therapist cannot accept that then I would suggest a new therapist. They should be about working with you, not making you work the way they expect you too.

[wabbit2]

I am committed. There isn't the slightest part of me that can even imagine wanting to be male, and I have NEVER felt comfortable referring to myself as one my entire life.

Ok so apart from the counselling are you doing anything to become the person you are?  I mean seeking hormones is obviously an important step for you; but it isn't really the first step.

Hormones shouldn't be seen as a holy grail for transition; important sure, there are other important or possibly more important things.  Such as are you out to anyone, friends or family?  Do you have circle of support?

I certainly don't agree that counsellors should push you into something, such as dressing to meet their expectations.  Though they generally do want to see a commitment to yourself and your transition and showing that you have social support can go a long way.  Of course if you do have these things in place and they are still pushing the "dressing question" perhaps it is time to look for a new counsellor.

By the way you can order a copy of the "Standards of care" from: http://www.wpath.org/publications_standards.cfm

[Rebecca.R]

I would like to respond as a person that has just started dressing, but has been very aware of my female (ness) for a very long time.  I can't say that I will transition, I would like to, it is unlikely, but I never say never.  With respect to the cross dressing I don't like looking at the person that looks back at me in the mirror and never have as long as I can remember because it doesn't reflect how I see myself in my mind.  Dressing allows me to have someone look back at me that more resembles that person I see myself as.  Whether that is right or wrong or disturbed I don't know, but thought I would mention as it may help.

Rebecca xx

[Asfsd4214]

Ok so apart from the counselling are you doing anything to become the person you are?  I mean seeking hormones is obviously an important step for you; but it isn't really the first step.

Hormones shouldn't be seen as a holy grail for transition; important sure, there are other important or possibly more important things.  Such as are you out to anyone, friends or family?  Do you have circle of support?

I certainly don't agree that counsellors should push you into something, such as dressing to meet their expectations.  Though they generally do want to see a commitment to yourself and your transition and showing that you have social support can go a long way.  Of course if you do have these things in place and they are still pushing the "dressing question" perhaps it is time to look for a new counsellor.

By the way you can order a copy of the "Standards of care" from: http://www.wpath.org/publications_standards.cfm

Thanks, I already have a copy and have read it a couple of times now to make sure they it didn't turn out that they were right about it being required.

For me, at this stage, hormones are the most important thing. I can't think of anything else that is more important. Any relevant family (that is to say, any that I would have personally seen more than maybe briefly twice in the past 2 years) already know. I have as much of a support network now that I'm ever going to have bar spending the next 2 or 3 years living as a male forming a larger support network and telling them then. In short, I don't have many people in my life, and the only people who know me who don't know about this situation, don't really know me in any meaningful way or have any influence, positive or negative, on my life.

I really don't think it would matter what I show or say to them, the primary thing they want to see, is time. They're probably worried that this is some passing phase and want to see me for as long as it takes to prove that it's not. And I'm sorry, that's just not good enough. I have multiple sclerosis that was most likely set off by the months of stress and depression my GID had caused before that, so I might only have a good decade or so before I'm disabled, possibly less (though here's hoping medication makes it possibly longer), but I'm just not going to waste indefinite amounts of time proving to them what I know is no phase.

I'm rapidly reaching the point of attempting self-medication. Don't ban me yet admins, I'm not supporting it in principle or asking to discuss it as a subject, but ask yourselves, if after trying every reasonable avenue to legally getting prescribed hormones, you no longer thought it was feasible outside of probably a 6-12 month time frame, what am I supposed to do? Keep being unhappy while I wait for them to be convinced, losing more and more time in the process? I have tried to explain my feelings, they simply don't seem to care, I don't think they take me seriously. They won't even discuss it with me. My doctor has outright said she won't prescribe hormones to me, nor will she continue to see me if I self-medicate. She did however refer me to an endocrinologist, so maybe he will be more reasonable and this will all work out. But if it doesn't, I'm pretty much out of any remotely short-term options.

I have one more doctor I can see, who I have it on reasonably good authority is part of this "you have to dress for a year before HRT" establishment. After her I can start calling up random doctor's out of the phone book, that's it. And as for health risks from self-medication, I'm already on blood monitoring for my MS, so for things like liver function I'm already being monitored anyway.

And yes, I said a year, nobody has been willing to give me a straight answer on how long they expect you to dress before HRT can get involved, but all the 2nd hand information I'm getting is placing at 12-18 months. So that's pretty much it, that's my situation. Either the endocrinologist my doctor referred too will be willing to help, she said that he gave indications that he might be more flexible, but if that doesn't work out, that's it. If I want hormones legally I simply have to dress up, as stereotypically female as possible, and try to live my life that way for an indefinite amount of time, possibly up to a year.

That's a year I will NEVER get back, I have a long term illness that likely means that my time being physically healthy and capable, barring future medical developments, has a life expectancy of about 10-15 years.

So wasting one of them pandering to these people while they ask me questions and go over things I've already gone over thousands of times to myself, is simply out of the question to me.

Ask yourself, if you were in my situation, what would you do?

EDIT: Furthermore, it's my belief that the longer I feel this way, the longer I feel conflicted and depressed, the more frequently I will have exacerbation of multiple sclerosis. High levels of stress are extremely well linked to MS attacks, my neurologist agrees and all the evidence I can find supports that. No I don't think my gender issues "caused" my MS (as was the accusation that my psych made when I suggested that I felt like the stress of this situation set off my likely existing predisposition to MS), but I do think they're contributing to the unusually high number of relapses I've had since my initial one which just happened to happen half a year into my depression.

So it may medically be even more detrimental to my health to wait if I can't find a way to be happy in this situation, which I can't, than self-administration. Especially health implications of HRT are ALREADY being monitored for by blood work every 3 months just in case there's a reaction to the MS medication I'm on. And yes, I already asked my neurologist, and no she doesn't believe there would be an interaction between HRT and my MS or the MS drugs I'm on.

[placeholdername]

Have you considered the option of moving somewhere where you can see a different therapist who won't be problematic?  At the place I go to, their policy is that if you are already self-medicating then they will prescribe them for you as self-medicating is potentially harmful and its much better to be supervised.  I'm not advocating self-medicating here, just trying to point out that there are places that are more open-minded, especially considering your medical situation.

[Asfsd4214]

Just to be clear to the admins, I am NOT advocating self-medication either. I believe mine are special and unusual circumstances where the risks normally associated with self-medication are diminished, the costs of not self-medicating are unusally great, and the ability to obtain a prescribe regiment is near nonexistant.

Furthermore the one person I have spoken too that is being prescribed, is being prescribed a contraceptive dose of birth control pills (the banned from discussion one from the HRT forum no less) ... so maybe the doctors here are unusually incompetent too.

Have you considered the option of moving somewhere where you can see a different therapist who won't be problematic?  At the place I go to, their policy is that if you are already self-medicating then they will prescribe them for you as self-medicating is potentially harmful and its much better to be supervised.  I'm not advocating self-medicating here, just trying to point out that there are places that are more open-minded, especially considering your medical situation.

Unfortunately I don't think that's realistic. I received a few pamphlets today that a transwoman in Melbourne sent me, from the "gender disphoria clinic" there)

I'm pretty sure they require 12-18 months of RLT before HRT (as per usual, the information in the pamphlet I was sent was ambiguous), that they've got a lawsuit against them for their gross incompetence in misdiagnosing people in the past, and if you want a description of the people there, check out this link...

http://www.samesame.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=9537

My point is it seems that my situation is pretty typical of the entire situation for TS people in Australia.

And as for prescribing to prevent self-medication, maybe the endocrinologist I see in 6 weeks will share those thoughts, but my general doctor doesn't, her view is that if I self-medicate, I simply have to find another doctor.

And that's the other thing, it takes about 6 weeks to see anyone, and I've already tried most of the people who I had the best shot with. Aside from just picking up the phone and randomly ringing up doctors pleading my case, I have the endocrinologist in 6 weeks, who's worked with TS people before and gave some indication that he might be reasonable, and I have the "specialist" doctor in 2 weeks who one individual told me is prescribing her contraceptive dose birth control pills without blood work anyway! And I've had two people tell me she requires the dressing thing too at that.

So that's it, the VERY suspicious sounding "specialist", and the endocrinologist. I'm not expecting much good will come out seeing the specialist doctor, but we'll see how that goes. If that doesn't work out, I have the endocrinologist. If he doesn't work out either, that's pretty much the end of the road for legal avenue's in the short term (as in, under 6 months).

Admin's, I know you're VERY twitchy about self-medication topics, I'm not self-medicating, I don't condone it, and neither of those will change for at least a month, so please refrain from closing the thread and banning me till then. 

The mindset for the entire country as far as any established treatment of "GID" seems to be this...

You need to be able to function socially as a woman before doing anything irreversible, so we need you to dress up as stereotypically female as possible and interact with as many people as possible and still be here in a year or so, then we can talk about HRT. No you can't have HRT before then, this is probably just a phase and we likely know you far better than you do and we're protecting you from yourself, don't argue with us, don't fight the system, we don't make the rules the magical rule making fairies do and no you can't see them, only we get to see them. 

That's pretty much been the mindset of anyone remotely "experienced" with TS issues I have seen thus far.

[jesse]

wow this sucks i feel for your situation so basically you walk around for a year hoping you keep your job and dont get assaulted or killed looking like a drag queen until youve convinced them youve suffered enough then they magically deam you ready for hrt and give you the wrong type (low dosage bc pills) hmmmm i agree with your next available (taboo option) its hrd for me to agree with the breaking of a law but in your case i see no option other then that. The information is readily available on the internet. However that has to be tempered with the extream risk to your health i know you can get a therapist on the internet to meet that requirement and do your sessions entirely on line to get the letter but i dont see what good it will do if the doctors still require the rle prior to hrt anyways.
jessica

[Asfsd4214]

wow this sucks i feel for your situation so basically you walk around for a year hoping you keep your job and dont get assaulted or killed looking like a drag queen until youve convinced them youve suffered enough then they magically deam you ready for hrt and give you the wrong type (low dosage bc pills) hmmmm i agree with your next available (taboo option) its hrd for me to agree with the breaking of a law but in your case i see no option other then that. The information is readily available on the internet. However that has to be tempered with the extream risk to your health i know you can get a therapist on the internet to meet that requirement and do your sessions entirely on line to get the letter but i dont see what good it will do if the doctors still require the rle prior to hrt anyways.
jessica

Hopefully it won't come to that, and the endocrinologist I see will be reasonable and we'll be able to work something out. But I'm pretty much writing off anybody apart of the defacto "transgender specialists" community if things don't go well with the one I see next week, and given everything I've heard, it sounds like she might be the worst of the lot. They're stuck in their "system" of doing thing's and aren't open to negotiation on it. And waiting 6-12 months or longer is simply unacceptable to me. Putting aside all the other issues, I'm simply not going to put myself through that mental hell when it's not going to benefit me in any practical way aside from suiting their checklist.

As for danger's from self medication, IF it comes down to that route, I'm already being tested every 3 months for liver function and blood count which AFAIK is the same thing they would do for watching for complications with HRT anyway, and I'm not going to give up trying to get them perscribed even if it comes down to that, I'm just not going to waste half a year or more of my life waiting for them to stop trying to save me from myself. 

[Chloe]

. . . I got into this mindset where the female mind in me existed only in my head. Where sort of knew I was a girl but that nobody else saw me that way, so I just had to pretend to everyone else, and I saw no point in dressing any differently to any other guy, publicly or by myself . . . Being female as opposed to male is something that's apart of my mind that I couldn't even begin to explain, but for me its rarely if ever given me any compulsion to cross dress . . . [and]I just can't really get my head around what motivates people to do it.

Although a somewhat elemental part of being female (in 'our' society) the way you choose to dress doesn't really have anything to do with identifying as TS; just like partner preferences/sexual orientations the latitude of self-expression is as infinite as the "individual sufferers" are varied so I wouldn't worry about it too much/be thankful(?) . . .

and I suppose if yer therapists don't find you "convincing" then perhaps you need to reassess your own true feelings on the subject and/or decide to do without their help all together (or find somebody else)?

[Asfsd4214]

Although a somewhat elemental part of being female (in 'our' society) the way you choose to dress doesn't really have anything to do with identifying as TS; just like partner preferences/sexual orientations the latitude of self-expression is as infinite as the "individual sufferers" are varied so I wouldn't worry about it too much/be thankful(?) . . .

and I suppose if yer therapists don't find you "convincing" then perhaps you need to reassess your own true feelings on the subject and/or decide to do without their help all together (or find somebody else)?

Respectfully, I spent 8 months reassessing my feeling's on the subject, I'm never NOT assessing my feelings on the subject. My feeling's on the subject didn't really change since I was 5 and they remain unchanged no matter how many times I go over them, which by now would be hundreds and hundreds of time's over.

So far there hasn't been a single person out of the 2 psychiatrists and one doctor I've seen who has said literally anything whatsoever that I hadn't already thought about a hundred times over beforehand. It's actually quite frustrating just how many times they've said something I've already thought about for months and said "have you thought about the implications of that".

Actually, there's one exception to that, one of them suggested "have you considered that perhaps you just want to be different". I hadn't even considered that because it is so completely 100% the REVERSE of what I have ever wanted that it didn't even enter my mind, I told her that and her only reply was "but you do want to be different, you want to be a woman." followed by a lengthy explanation of the difference between wanting to be different and being different involuntarily, after which she had nothing further to say. 

Apart from that brilliant insight, all I get out of going to these people is a two person repeat of everything I've already gone over in my head for months, months ago, only with someone who doesn't remotely know me or what I've experienced in my life, and with a 20-50 minute timer on it.

It's extremely tempting to just say "If your question starts with "have you given any thought" or "have you considered", the answer's yes". How could I NOT have considered it? I spent 8 months solid, every single day thinking about this pretty much exclusively.

Doing it without their "help" seems like a far better option, it feels like if I didn't need therapy before seeing these psychiatrists, I will after I do. 

Maybe I just need to find the right therapist, but I've seen two so far, and I see a third in december who I have already heard from my doctor who has spoken with her feels that I'm perhaps too young to be transitioning at 21. So I'm very pessimistic that she's going to work out any better. And by that time I'll have see 3 people over the course of about 5 months, so I'll probably be feeling pretty sick of the therapy experience by then.

[wabbit2]

Oh Honey - I'm going to say a few things, totally not trying to be rude but I'll be blunt and feel free to ignore it all!

What are you doing?

I feel for your situation and the medical issues you have...sooooo really what are you looking for?

Let's leave hormones out of this for a moment, what do you want to achieve in your life? Where do you see yourself in 1 year? 2 years? For the rest of your life?  Your story reminds me of a bio from a friend of mine, Peter Taylor, titled "Don't postpone joy", a young NZ gay man all set to ride in the Olympics 3-day eventing struck down with lifelong illness, great inspiring read.  I get the feeling that you are locked onto the idea of hormones making you happy and complete; not being able to get them contributes to your medical and personal problems.

Goals and needs are great.  But why tie yourself to these goals, leave the counselling get out there and live your life as who you are, a young Australian woman.  You don't need the permission of society, the medical establishment, or hormones to live and love your life.  If you're scared to live as "you" wherever you are, move, go to Melbourne, Sydney, or god forbid Auckland, all are wonderful cosmopolitan centres full of diversity.

Just one more thing, I went through the road of counselling for hormones three times in my life at 20 (totally not ready and screwed up), again at 29 (totally ready and scared as crap), then for real at 33 (totally ready and excited as a happy puppy)....From what you're saying maybe you don't have that time, so what are you going to do? Live and curse the world, or live and be who you are!

[Asfsd4214]

Oh Honey - I'm going to say a few things, totally not trying to be rude but I'll be blunt and feel free to ignore it all!

What are you doing?

I feel for your situation and the medical issues you have...sooooo really what are you looking for?

Let's leave hormones out of this for a moment, what do you want to achieve in your life? Where do you see yourself in 1 year? 2 years? For the rest of your life?  Your story reminds me of a bio from a friend of mine, Peter Taylor, titled "Don't postpone joy", a young NZ gay man all set to ride in the Olympics 3-day eventing struck down with lifelong illness, great inspiring read.  I get the feeling that you are locked onto the idea of hormones making you happy and complete; not being able to get them contributes to your medical and personal problems.

Goals and needs are great.  But why tie yourself to these goals, leave the counselling get out there and live your life as who you are, a young Australian woman.  You don't need the permission of society, the medical establishment, or hormones to live and love your life.  If you're scared to live as "you" wherever you are, move, go to Melbourne, Sydney, or god forbid Auckland, all are wonderful cosmopolitan centres full of diversity.

Just one more thing, I went through the road of counselling for hormones three times in my life at 20 (totally not ready and screwed up), again at 29 (totally ready and scared as crap), then for real at 33 (totally ready and excited as a happy puppy)....From what you're saying maybe you don't have that time, so what are you going to do? Live and curse the world, or live and be who you are!

In order to be happy and complete one day, I can't be getting perceived as male by everyone around me, all the time, and I'm not talking about friends and family, I mean it physically hurt's me to be perceived that way just by random people in society. And in order to both help me pass, and for my own well being, if nothing else I need to try HRT.

The only options apart from suicide and transition is trying to be happy being perceived as a guy, or trying to be happy perceived as a guy dressing up like a girl. And I don't see any reason to believe either are realistic possibilities for me.

Is it possible I get hormones and things still don't work out? Sure, maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm completely delusional and the things I believe with complete clarity are wrong and I am simply blind to it. But I have to act assuming that they're not. What am I supposed to do? Assume that my beliefs and feelings are wrong for no greater reason than "it's not impossible"?

If I do nothing, and try and be happy now, I firmly believe that even if I could do that, and I doubt I could, it would eventually reach a point where I am right back where I started, only I will hate myself for not doing more when I could have now.

You might not have been ready for hormones at 20, and maybe I'm not either and I don't even see it. But it's my belief that I am, and that the best way towards happiness in the shortest period of time is to deal with this right now, not later.

The problems that I'm encountering right now with the medical establishment aren't going to disappear any time soon. So lets say I try to be happy now, that would involve pretending I'm a guy again. I don't look so guyish that people don't sometimes read me as a girl already, but the fact is that I could pass faaar better than I do and hormones can help with that. Furthermore I hate feeling trapped in this body and hormones *might* improve that situation too.

Am I so foolish as to believe any of that is a certainty? No. But I can't NOT try, it's simply not going to happen. I don't know how I could live with myself if I didn't even try.

Could I be more happy in the short term by not doing this? IF I could get into the mindset I used to have of "ok I'm female in my head, but I can't change anything so this is how it'll have to be" then sure, I could. But I don't want and doubt I could get back into that mindset, because I know I CAN do something. And I am faar too self concision to do RLE before HRT.

And the sooner I do it, the more time I will have living a life that I can enjoy.

The only way out of this is through it. Avoiding the issue isn't going to do anything but land me in exactly the same situation I'm in now, only with even less time after it.

I don't think hormones will make me happy and complete, I don't think hormones will change too much of anything in my life over at least the next few months. But doing nothing is just adding more time to that, not removing any of it.

I firmly believe that I'm doing what is best for me in the long term, and I firmly believe that I've thought all of this through. I could be mistaken, but doubt for the sake of doubt isn't enough reason to stop. And I believe there is no option that will lead to happiness that doesn't involve transition. And in my mind, transition involves HRT, and I'm not waiting.

If I'm wrong and not seeing things straight, and I don't believe for a moment that I am, but IF for the sake of argument I was. I need to discover that on my own to move forward.

[wabbit2]

So lets say I try to be happy now, that would involve pretending I'm a guy again. I don't look so guyish that people don't sometimes read me as a girl already, but the fact is that I could pass faaar better than I do and hormones can help with that.

Its not about pretence it's about reality.  You are a woman no matter what you, others or even what hormones might have to say to you.

Furthermore I hate feeling trapped in this body and hormones *might* improve that situation too.

Understand what you're saying, but in many ways you really have to accept the body you have – lets face it hormones are good at changing things – but you are still going to be you no matter what

IF I could get into the mindset I used to have of "ok I'm female in my head, but I can't change anything so this is how it'll have to be" then sure, I could. But I don't want and doubt I could get back into that mindset, because I know I CAN do something. And I am faar too self concision to do RLE before HRT.

Hon by knowing yourself you are already in that mindset; you're putting to much pressure on yourself.

I don't think hormones will make me happy and complete, I don't think hormones will change too much of anything in my life over at least the next few months. But doing nothing is just adding more time to that, not removing any of it.

Its never about doing nothing – sometimes I think the more information that is out there now the more people, young people in particular, feel that they need to conform and that rejections are a serious body blow.

All I'm saying is you rule,  not hormones or society.  Look if you can get over your concerns and fears (yeah I know this is like trying to get the mountain to come to Mohammed) I think you will not only learn to be happy but the next time you engage those roughnecks in the medical world you will get a more positive outcome.

[Asfsd4214]

Its not about pretence it's about reality.  You are a woman no matter what you, others or even what hormones might have to say to you.
Understand what you're saying, but in many ways you really have to accept the body you have – lets face it hormones are good at changing things – but you are still going to be you no matter what
Hon by knowing yourself you are already in that mindset; you're putting to much pressure on yourself.
Its never about doing nothing – sometimes I think the more information that is out there now the more people, young people in particular, feel that they need to conform and that rejections are a serious body blow.

All I'm saying is you rule,  not hormones or society.  Look if you can get over your concerns and fears (yeah I know this is like trying to get the mountain to come to Mohammed) I think you will not only learn to be happy but the next time you engage those roughnecks in the medical world you will get a more positive outcome.

Only because I will have done exactly what they wanted me to do, and I simply can't get into a "I don't care what anyone else thinks" mindset that a lot of the people here have. I have a lot of respect for people who don't care what anyone else thinks looking at them, but the fact is I do. So anything I can do to reduce the amount of time I have to go through that, I want to do.

Yes, I rule me, not hormones, not society, and definitely not the medical community. And I believe I need HRT to help me become more the person I feel I am in my head, of which not being is the cause of my mental anguish. That's what I believe, and I can't simply change what I believe to something I don't believe.

I would love to feel like I could be the person I am to the world and live my life without starting HRT and be happy, but the fact is I don't. If the world were wiped out and I was the only one left, I would STILL pursue hormones, because it's as much for me as anything else.

[wabbit2]

I would love to feel like I could be the person I am to the world and live my life without starting HRT and be happy, but the fact is I don't. If the world were wiped out and I was the only one left, I would STILL pursue hormones, because it's as much for me as anything else.

OK i understand what your saying - you will acheive what you want if you stay strong hon.  Really can't say much more except all the best and let us know, if you want to, how you get on.

Take care
Amie

[shanetastic]

Just a little FYI asfsd

I know what you're feeling and went through it before with a bad gatekeeper psych.

Eventually I had to dump her because she was utterly useless and I was literally being held back by negative beliefs of youth and how she presumed that no one knew for sure whether they wanted to transition or not at my age, unless of course you're one of those prime examples who somehow managed to defy all gender norms your whole life and be stereotypical.

Needless to say, the next therapist I had shortly thereafter approved it pretty quickly, and of course the doctor never wanted my letter lol.  Go figure!