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Why remove GID from DSM?

Started by Valerie Elizabeth, October 24, 2009, 06:29:30 PM

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Valerie Elizabeth

I feel like I have been hearing a lot of people talk about GID being removed from the DSM in the next iteration.

Does anyone care to elaborate why GID should be removed?

I can't think of any reasons why.
"There comes a point in life when you realize everything you know about yourself, it's all just conditioning."  True Blood

"You suffer a lot more hiding something than if you face up to it."  True Blood
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Muddy

As long as GID is in the DSM, transsexuals will be barred from military service.

Even if Don't Ask, Don't Tell is repealed, transsexuals will still be seen as suffering from a Personality Disorder that is incompatible with military service.

That's mine.
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Valerie Elizabeth

So with that logic, should we remove ADHD from the DSM, so they are allowed to enlist?
"There comes a point in life when you realize everything you know about yourself, it's all just conditioning."  True Blood

"You suffer a lot more hiding something than if you face up to it."  True Blood
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Hannah

Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders

I do not feel mentally disordered (at least not because I'm trans, lol).

However, I go back and forth in my opinion on this, I'm sure glad it isn't my decision. I can't argue with ensuring relative sanity before undertaking transition; but who am I, or anyone else really, to enforce that by pathologising the need? If it is removed, it will be interesting to see if the people who modify our bodies surgically and hormonally drop their SOC requirements. I don't imagine they will.
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Janet_Girl

If it is removed from the DSM, then it could be looked at as a real medical condition.  That could open the doors to treatment being covered by the insurance companies.  Even the AMA Resolution 122 states that it should be covered by the health care industry. 


Janet
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Valerie Elizabeth

Quote from: Janet Lynn on October 24, 2009, 06:48:51 PM
If it is removed from the DSM, then it could be looked at as a real medical condition.  That could open the doors to treatment being covered by the insurance companies.  Even the AMA Resolution 122 states that it should be covered by the health care industry. 


Janet
I don't understand the logic there.  Mood disorders are listed in the DSM (bipolar, depression, etc) and they are considered "real" medical conditions and they get treatment.  How would removing GID from the DSM accomplish that?

Also, according to tsroadmap :
"A little background: SRS was routinely covered in the US until a couple of medical articles came out in the late 1970's showing high suicide rates among post-operative women. This came at the same time a couple of prominent gender clinics were closed, notably Johns Hopkins.

The insurance companies pounced on these events as a chance to decry the procedure as elective, cosmetic, or experimental. It's been an uphill battle since. "




Quote from: Becca on October 24, 2009, 06:47:11 PM
I do not feel mentally disordered (at least not because I'm trans, lol).
I get that. 


How about renaming the manual?  It would probably solve both reasons I quoted.  By migrating all the DSM disorders into a manual that includes all medical disorders would remove the stigma of it being a mental disorder, and it would be much harder for the insurance companies to refuse payment to.

Just a thought.
"There comes a point in life when you realize everything you know about yourself, it's all just conditioning."  True Blood

"You suffer a lot more hiding something than if you face up to it."  True Blood
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Asfsd4214

It's really a question of where mental disorders end and physical disorders begin.

In a sense, all mental disorders are also physical disorders because they're caused by physical differences in the brain, so really it's more a matter of if the condition can be "cured" through therapy or drugs (as with depression) and whether or not the condition is or isn't psychological along the same lines as other mental illnesses.

Maybe both forms exist, psychologically and neurophysically induced GID. I for one feel pretty sure from my own experiences and the various studies that have been done and examples like John Money's fantastically tragic efforts in discrediting his own theory, that brain sex does exist and can be in-congruent with the body. Likewise it's also not unheard of for people to feel they have GID only to later realize they don't, there's a lawsuit here in Australia against a gender clinic on grounds that they were misdiagnosed and now have genuine GID resulting from transition when their issues were related to something else.

Why should GID be removed? For one, there's increasing evidence that transexuality is literally a case of intersex brain structures. Not enough to prove it outright, but definitely enough to warrant consideration. If that turned out to be the case, then many, perhaps most examples of GID may in fact be subtle intersex conditions in the brain not causing any more noticeably mental illness. If that's the case, then those forms of GID would not be mental illnesses in the sense that there's nothing actually "wrong" with the mind itself.

I have very mixed feelings about the psychiatric profession, the more I learn about it the more I feel it exhibits an extreme amount of unscientific guess work, and that they really don't know much more about the underlying cause of mental or apparently mental disorders than the people who suffer from them would.

I for one would like to see GID removed from the DSM if for no other reason than its presence there assumes that it is a mental disorder when as time goes on more and more evidence is found that contradicts that assumption.

That and I don't like psychiatrists.  ;D

The primary problem here is, is GID a physical problem in the brain that can't be cured by conventional therapy, or is it a psychological problem that can be "cured". If it's the former, it's a birth defect and warrants just as much treatment as any intersex birth defect. If it's the latter, then it might be better if the psychological problem can be corrected, so the person can live a normal life without expensive surgical options.

I for one believe that it can be and frequently is a result of the former, in which case I don't think it should be listed in the DSM, or at least not as the same context as the latter possibility.

Its listing in the DSM has basically defined everyone with GID being as being assumed to be the latter category, and that it is the only category that exists. I think this is unhelpful to our situation and believe that in time it will come to be more widely recognized as a physical birth defect.

Homosexuality used to be considered a mental illness too, now it's widely believed it is simply a physical difference in the brain that is in no way a disorder of the mind, that's what I would like to see with GID.
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Valerie Elizabeth

OK.  Let's assume that there is nothing wrong with the brain of someone who has, under current rule been diagnosed with GID.  GID has been removed from the DSM.

What would be the way to diagnose it, and treat it?  Where should GID be located, if anywhere?  Who would would diagnose it?  Should it be diagnosed?
"There comes a point in life when you realize everything you know about yourself, it's all just conditioning."  True Blood

"You suffer a lot more hiding something than if you face up to it."  True Blood
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Asfsd4214

Quote from: Valerie Elizabeth on October 24, 2009, 07:37:23 PM
OK.  Let's assume that there is nothing wrong with the brain of someone who has, under current rule been diagnosed with GID.  GID has been removed from the DSM.

What would be the way to diagnose it, and treat it?  Where should GID be located, if anywhere?  Who would would diagnose it?  Should it be diagnosed?

Given that we don't know for sure what part of the brain is responsible for brain sex, and the best guess can't be detected with medical imaging technologies at this time, unfortunately there's no objective way to diagnose it. But the DSM is no better, it's simply a diagnosis made by one individual based on what if they think another individuals subjective experiences fit the criteria or not, not exactly hard science.

I don't know where GID should be located, where is AIS located? If GID is an intersex condition in some or most cases, it should be treated as one. As for who would diagnose it, I suppose a doctor would have too. It has to be diagnosed in order to provide treatment, but unfortunately we don't have any objective way to diagnose it as a physical disorder at this time. But I don't think assuming it's nothing more than a psychological disorder, which is what its presence in the DSM does for most people, is a great situation either.

I don't know what the answer is, and to be honest I'm not really interested in being involved in the politics of LGBT issues any more than I have to be, I just want to be able to live my life like everyone else.

But at this time most of us have no choice but to deal with the medical community to get treatment, and I don't think the medical community is doing a very good job at taking GID seriously. By and large there's a perception that people with GID have a mental disorder, nothing more. And I think that's holding back advancement in transgender care, and the DSM's listing of it is a part of the problem.
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Janet_Girl

The same way the fibromyalgia is.  A set of symptoms was how fibro was diagnosed, it still is.  But the health care industry now cover it and the drug companies are now working to find drugs that help.  Why is it that Transsexualism is a mental disorder? 

They need to recognize that all we are asking is that we require the same respect that those who have suffered with Fibro.  My ex has fibro and for years she was told that it was 'all in her head'.  Was she mentally ill?  No she has a set of symptoms that need to be addressed.  Now they have medication that helps suffers.  And it is a recognized "Medical" condition.  We need to be recognized as a medical condition.

And a doctor finally told her "That of course it was all in her head, that's wear pain starts from".  And he helped her deal with the pain.

By being listed as a mental disorder, we will never get any medical establishment to take us seriously.


Janet
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Asfsd4214

Quote from: Janet Lynn on October 24, 2009, 07:55:08 PM
By being listed as a mental disorder, we will never get any medical establishment to take us seriously.
Janet

Exactly, that's exactly what I was trying to say.

If people think it's a mental disorder, then they think there's nothing "actually" wrong with you.

If TS were considered a brain intersex condition, better yet if it could be detected as one, so many lives could be improved.
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Hannah

Quote from: Janet Lynn on October 24, 2009, 07:55:08 PM
By being listed as a mental disorder, we will never get any medical establishment to take us seriously.

While it is compelling, I don't think this is an statement that will get anywhere in either direction. My health plan takes it seriously, and pays for therapy and hormones both. As I understand it, some others are even more generous.

Just for the sake of discussion, because I'm undecided on this too, even if the existence of the disorder is pure nonsense, should we really, really remove gid from the dsm? Think about it, a diagnosis of gid means a lifetime of trauma. Poor little girls experienced male puberty, societal demands and expectations including practically forced  homosexuality and aggressiveness, not to mention seeing a monster in the mirror daily. Even if gid itself isn't real, someone diagnosed with it most likely needs help, and more than she realizes.
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Janet_Girl

Mine only cover HRT.  Orchie was not medically necessary according to Kaiser.  Therapy was not covered because they had no one that was schooled in GID.  And now I have none.  So HRT will be up to me to find another doctor to prescribe.  At least I know on a couple, by it will be out-of-pocket.

My Orchie will also be out-of-pocket.  Medicaid here in Oregon covers nothing, because it isn't a medically diagnosis, only mental.  And even if it was, it would called preexisting.   But if I was diabetic, which would be preexisting, they cover it.  GID is just as life threading as diabetes.

It is like if you're diagnosed as having a mental disorder and you are not a threat to others, you get squat.  Why can we just be allowed to have medical treatment.  Because GID is mental, not medical.

JMHO


Janet
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Valerie Elizabeth

Quote from: asfsd4214 on October 24, 2009, 08:00:02 PM
Exactly, that's exactly what I was trying to say.

If people think it's a mental disorder, then they think there's nothing "actually" wrong with you.

If TS were considered a brain intersex condition, better yet if it could be detected as one, so many lives could be improved.

But the fact is that we can't, at this time prove what causes GID.  Do you think people who are bipolar have nothing wrong with them?  Just because a diagnosis falls under a mental disorder, doesn't mean it's "imaginary", and people who think that are idiots.

I think instead of trying to change whether or not it is a mental disorder, to try and change the insurance companies coverage of it.  I guess that I am looking at it from the insurance companies point of view.  I mean, there is no physical test, no symptoms that can't be faked, and to be honest the surgery is technically cosmetic.

I'm not saying that I don't think it's a real problem.  I have it and I sure as hell don't agree with paying out of pocket for it.  I just want to get a better feel for the reasons behind the push for change.

What happens if it gets pulled out of the DSM and we lose whatever coverage we have?  I understand that a lot of people don't have coverage at all, but the people who do get some coverage and lose it because of it not being anything medical would suck.

Lastly,
Quote from: asfsd4214 on October 24, 2009, 07:14:25 PM
Homosexuality used to be considered a mental illness too, now it's widely believed it is simply a physical difference in the brain that is in no way a disorder of the mind, that's what I would like to see with GID.

So, you would like to be seen as someone with nothing wrong with them, and get no treatment at all?


I didn't mean to step on anyone's toes.  This is partly me thinking out loud, and trying to get as much information as possible.  I want to be able to make the most informed decision as possible, and I want everyone else to as well.
"There comes a point in life when you realize everything you know about yourself, it's all just conditioning."  True Blood

"You suffer a lot more hiding something than if you face up to it."  True Blood
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Asfsd4214

Quote from: Valerie Elizabeth on October 24, 2009, 10:03:44 PM
So, you would like to be seen as someone with nothing wrong with them, and get no treatment at all?

Of course not, my point was that homosexuality is not considered a mental illness, and neither should GID. But in just the same was as multiple sclerosis is not a mental illness even though it causes damage in the brain, it still requires treatment.

And that's the difference, unlike homosexuality, GID requires treatment to improve the quality of life of the individual suffering from it.

And that's what I and I believe several other people here have a problem with, we feel GID can not be shown to be, and is not likely a mental disorder, and should not be classed as one.

Unlike a real mental disorder like bipolar disorder or depression, the mental and cognitive functioning of the individual is not impaired or unusual when put in the context of the individuals identified gender. So while GID is a problem in the brain, I feel it's not a mental disorder any more than homosexuality is, but unlike homosexuality it is not simply a physically harmless abnormality, it is debilitating and requires treatment. Problems for homosexuals come from the social implications of it, without socially induced harm, it's nothing more than a harmless human variation. GID on the other hand is debilitating enough without any socially induced problems. It is for me anyway.

That is what I meant in my previous post, and that is why it should not be in the DSM.

Yes, removing it from the DSM may in the short term cause serious problems for some of us, but in the long term we'll all be better off.
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Valerie Elizabeth

Multiple Sclerosis is an autoimmune disorder where nerve cells are demyelinated.  That's not even close to a mental illness.  I said it before, there are a ton of mental illnesses that are given medical coverage.  I think we need to look further into the reason why hormones, and surgery is not considered medically necessary in most cases.

According to WebMD, a mental illness is a psychological syndrome or behavioral pattern that is associated with subjective distress and/or objective impairment.
     I feel that GID falls under that.

Furthermore, there is no evidence (or at least none that I could find) that proves whether homosexuality it is caused by something physical in the brain, something mental, or a choice. 

I read some studies recently that are linking GID to genes (so far estrogen receptor), and polymorphous aromatase receptor genes and polymorphous estrogen receptor genes.  I support the notion that GID may be a mental illness caused by an underlying problem.  The issue is, we don't know what really causes GID, and the studies, albeit convincing are mostly preliminary.   


So far, my thoughts are that GID should remain in the DSM until a better diagnosis method is available.  I think we need to pressure the insurance companies back into covering GID.  I am going to do some digging into as many reasons as to why insurance companies no longer cover it.
"There comes a point in life when you realize everything you know about yourself, it's all just conditioning."  True Blood

"You suffer a lot more hiding something than if you face up to it."  True Blood
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Janet_Girl

But I do not have a mental illness, and by being classified as such can result in refusal to employ, refusal in housing, even refusal to certain medical procedures.  You can also be institutionalized by court order.

And you wonder why I feel it should be removed.  I have a medical disorder, not a mental one.


Janet
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Asfsd4214

Quote from: Valerie Elizabeth on October 24, 2009, 11:55:49 PM
Multiple Sclerosis is an autoimmune disorder where nerve cells are demyelinated.  That's not even close to a mental illness.  I said it before, there are a ton of mental illnesses that are given medical coverage.  I think we need to look further into the reason why hormones, and surgery is not considered medically necessary in most cases.

According to WebMD, a mental illness is a psychological syndrome or behavioral pattern that is associated with subjective distress and/or objective impairment.
     I feel that GID falls under that.

Furthermore, there is no evidence (or at least none that I could find) that proves whether homosexuality it is caused by something physical in the brain, something mental, or a choice. 

I read some studies recently that are linking GID to genes (so far estrogen receptor), and polymorphous aromatase receptor genes and polymorphous estrogen receptor genes.  I support the notion that GID may be a mental illness caused by an underlying problem.  The issue is, we don't know what really causes GID, and the studies, albeit convincing are mostly preliminary.   


So far, my thoughts are that GID should remain in the DSM until a better diagnosis method is available.  I think we need to pressure the insurance companies back into covering GID.  I am going to do some digging into as many reasons as to why insurance companies no longer cover it.

I can save you the time, they'd rather keep the money for themselves.  ::)

And they justify it by considering it or aspects of treating it a lifestyle or cosmetic choice rather than a medical condition, which is much easier to do with something recognized as a mental illness rather than a physical illness. Some might argue "if it's a mental illness then hormones and surgery are indulging their delusions rather than treating the illness".

If GID were discovered conclusively to be a seemingly mental manifestation of what is actually a physical intersex disorder, it would be indisputable that hormones and surgery are treating the disorder rather than indulging a delusion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etiology_of_transsexualism#Possible_physical_causes

There is growing evidence that GID is more a physical disorder than what would traditionally be considered a mental disorder. The belief that it's a mental disorder is simply an assumption based on lack of evidence to the contrary at the time. Like so much in the fields of psychiatry and treatment of mental illness, the diagnostic criteria for GID is nothing more than guess work.

Yes, the studies supporting the notion that it is a physical disorder are still early, but they are becoming more numerous and more compelling as time goes on.

And scientific evidence that it is a mental disorder is virtually non-existent. If it were purely a mental disorder, it should be more receptive to psychotherapy.

I do believe that in some cases what would meet the diagnostic criteria for GID may in fact be a mental illness, this is evident by the relatively rare instances of regrets and detransitions.

Getting help in Australia recently took a serious blow because of instances such as this http://www.theage.com.au/national/sexchange-clinic-got-it-wrong-20090530-br3u.html

But I also believe that the evidence we do have suggests that it is more likely than not that GID is more a physical disorder than a mental one. That is to say, the mind is not ill, and neither is the body, it's just that they aren't as compatible with each other as they should be.


Janet Lynn also makes an excellent point. By being a mental disorder we are not considered to be in a healthy state of mind, and could be deemed to not know how to act in our best interests. I can only speak for myself when I say the impression I have gotten from many medical professionals has been that I don't know what I'm doing. They don't want to hear what I have to say, they want a psychiatrist to hear what I have to say and then to hear what the psychiatrist thinks. Because clearly I might not be in a fit state of mind to make any decisions that effect my body.

This is largely a result of the treatment and utter refusal to acknowledge that GID could be anything but a mental illness.
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glendagladwitch

As an alternative to removing GID from the DSM, we could just put everything else in.  Like being Catholic.  Liking chocolate.  Wanting to get married.  That way, psychiatrists can treat for everything.
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Valerie Elizabeth

Can I ask then why so many people on this board recommend people to a psychiatrist?

If everybody feels so strongly about it being removed, then why go to psychiatrists?  Doing so only furthers the idea that it is a mental illness.

Thoughts?
"There comes a point in life when you realize everything you know about yourself, it's all just conditioning."  True Blood

"You suffer a lot more hiding something than if you face up to it."  True Blood
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