Susan's Place Logo

News:

Please be sure to review The Site terms of service, and rules to live by

Main Menu

'Transgender' vs. 'transgendered' – the great nomenclature debate engaged

Started by Flan, November 02, 2009, 10:06:40 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Flan

'Transgender' vs. 'transgendered' – the great nomenclature debate engaged
Posted by Pauline Park
Sunday, April 8. 2007
http://bigqueer.server304.com/index.php?/archives/214-Transgender-vs.-transgendered-the-great-nomenclature-debate-engaged.html

QuoteThe word transgender never needs the extraneous "ed" at the end of the word. In fact, such a construction is grammatically incorrect. Only verbs can be transformed into participles by adding "-ed" to the end of the word, and transgender is an adjective, not a verb.

I hesitate to criticize what is in general a very useful guide, but on this issue, the guide is simply incorrect: 'transgendered' is clearly grammatically correct and 'transgender' is the term whose grammatical status is in question. It is certainly true that some transgendered people use 'transgender' as an adjective to describe themselves or others, but a review of the above will show that this is, strictly speaking, grammatically incorrect.
Soft kitty, warm kitty, little ball of fur. Happy kitty, sleepy kitty, purr, purr, purr.
  •  

Alyssa M.

Thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou!!!!!!!!

Past participles FTW!

Obviously, there is some disagreement -- in particular, right here at Susan's. But I cringe whenever I hear "transgender" used as an adjective to describe a person (rather than their work, "transgender activist") for precisely the same reasons that the author describes.

I have heard people use "transsexed" as well, for similar reasons. It sounds good to my ears, and it gets the meaning across well. The only difference is that "transsexual" is an acceptable and grammatical synonym.
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another.

   - Anatole France
  •  

Arch

I have no problem with the occasional -ed ending for words that aren't verbs. English is flexible that way. I do, however, object to this author's examples in the fourth full paragraph, where verbs with the -d or -ed ending are paraded about as examples of non-verbs that have been altered into adjectives by virtue of their -d or -ed ending. Um, no.

I also think it's silly to add an -ed ending to a work that is already an adjective. I have always understood "transgender" as an adjective, so why add an -ed? Of course, I'm not clear on the etymology of the word, so I could be wrong, wrong, wrong.

For me to be fully comfortable with "transgendered," I would have to accept "transgender" as a noun only (or as a noun that can function as an adjective when it modifies other nouns) and not as an adjective in its own right. But I actually think it's kind of weird to use "transgender" as a noun. Still, I can't say why. I don't have a problem with "transsexual" as a noun...

Lord, now you've activated me.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
  •  

Virginia87106

I have another one.  many folks use the prefix "trans" to describe one of our groups.  Which is correct?

trans people
trans-people
transpeople

Inquiring minds wish to know?
  •  

Sarah Louise

I was never an "A" student in grammar.  But, I don't get the big fuss over an "ed", maybe it is because I just don't care, or maybe I'm just to stupid to understand the ramifications of this major misuse of grammar.

I admit transsexual"ed" just doesn't work.

:)

Sarah L.
Nameless here for evermore!;  Merely this, and nothing more;
Tis the wind and nothing more!;  Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore!!"
  •  

Alyssa M.

Arch -- I'm sorry, but I didn't really understand your complaint. The author was using words that are verbs, including gender.

Fatigue and exhaust are verbs. Debates over nomenclature fatigue and exhaust me. I can fatigue a metal rod by bending it back and forth. I can exhaust my supply of dish soap. I can accomplish great things even as I age. I can refine my taste in Italian wine by [i/]educating[/i] myself. I can honor the request of my neighbors that I not play loud music at night.

However handed and cultured are typically used (in the senses presented) as verbs only to create past participle, since the act of creating mirror asymmetry (becoming handed) and familiarizing oneself with high culture (begining cultured) are virtually never done explicitly in any way that need describing, so we need only the past participle. (Of course, we hand over our keys and culture bacteria on a petri dish.) Similarly, the implicit process of becoming gendered rarely needs a present tense (in terms intransitive sense of developing a personal gender identity, rather than the transitive sense of discerning and construing somebody else's), and neither does transgender.

Gender is not an adjective. It is a noun, or, at times, a verb. So why should the neologism transgender be one? We speak about gender studies, but here we are using the noun gender as an adjective, as we when we talk about the business section of a newspaper or a law school at a university. Business and law are certainly not adjectives! We wouldn't ever use transgender in the stand-alone sense as a noun that we use gender, but that's because gender does the job. We might talk about a person whose transgender status means that their gender falls outside of the binary conventions. Similarly, we don't need the verb transgender because it is included in the verb gender as it describes how a person's gender identity forms. But the past participle is quite useful: A person becomes gendered through development from a fetus through adult, and sometimes they become transgendered when that development falls outside societal norms.

Sarah, we don't say transsexualed because there is no possible sense in which sexual could ever be a verb; however sex can be a verb (in the same sense as gender) so transsexed makes sense, even if it is rare.




Virginia,

I much, much, much prefer trans people. Trans is an adjective, short for transgendered or transsexual, depending on the context, just as bi is an abbreviation for bisexual. We sometimes say spokeswoman or Irishman, but these construction are either titles (as with a job) or antiquated ways of describing nationality. The second sense is the one that comes across in transperson, since being trans is not (I hope) a profession. And it's kind of dehumanizing: I'm a person first, and when you call me a transperson it gives me the sense that being trans makes me less of a person, one that needs qualification.

That's also why I don't like transsexual (or white or black or any other adjective used to describe people) used as a noun meaning transsexual, (or white or black) people. It is dehumanizing, and ought to be used sparingly.
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another.

   - Anatole France
  •  

Dorothy

This only matters if you're obsessed with the whole transgender thing or political correctness.  To be "politically correct about transgender issues" only matters in transgender circles or if your life revolves around transgender only spaces (a transgender community literally).  But in the world I live in, amongst the cis,  the moment you say "trans" or any of its configurations (transsexual, trans, transgendered, transgender, transsexed, transwhatever), you're seen as a man in a dress & if you're a trans bloke, you're seen as a lesbian that took it a little too far.  That's the cold hard truth.
  •  

YoungSoulRebel

"Verbing weirds language." -- Bill Watterson.


Serious:  English, being a living language, isn't as closely bound to its "rules" as extinct languages, like Latin or Old Norse.  While I can understand that following its guidelines makes communication easier, the very nature of English is one that's constantly changing, as a living language, and as a rather inconsistent language, anyway.  The earliest form of English was obviously Germanic-derived, but it quickly borrowed so much Latin, and by proxy Greek root-words, then French (which itself is equal parts Latin and Gaulish), that its "rules" already lack universal application prior to the argument linked to.

"I before E, except after C", anybody?  What about the word "caffeine", then?  That has E before I after F.  The "e" at the end of "catastrophe" is typically not a silent one.  Through slang or colloquial usage, many words are both verbs and nouns or have commonly-accepted definitions that are still not found in most dictionaries.  Considering all this and more, the quibble over "transgender" being an adjective and "therefore should never end in -ed" seems kind of silly, since the "rules" of English are rather inconsistent and hodge-podge, to begin with.
  •  

Arch

Quote from: Alyssa M. on November 03, 2009, 03:23:18 PM
Arch -- I'm sorry, but I didn't really understand your complaint. The author was using words that are verbs, including gender.

That's the whole problem. She starts out the paragraph with a non-verb, as if to make her point that the -d and -ed endings are used on non-verbs, and then she suddenly switches to verbs. Well, we already KNOW that you can make a verb into an adjective if you add -d or -ed. Her point was supposedly that we also add the ending to words that aren't verbs, so why is she suddenly giving verb examples?

There's no clear pattern in this paragraph. There's no cueing to tell me what her point really is. In fact, I had to read the blog entry a few times to figure out what she was arguing in the first place. The opening segment is apparently a direct quotation, but she doesn't even use quotation marks to show us that. So it looked like she was saying one thing and then saying the direct opposite.

Maybe you can tell that I've been grading papers this week. If this had been a student paper, it would have gotten a rather poor grade from me.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
  •  

Alyssa M.

Quote from: Pia on November 03, 2009, 05:59:45 PMThis only matters if you're obsessed with the whole transgender thing or political correctness.

Actually, it's more that I'm obsessed with grammatical correctness. ;) As much a fan as I am of the quirkiness of English language, certain constructions hurt my ears.

...

Arch -- the point is that "gender" is typically a noun (sometimes used as an adjective, as with "gender studies"; I can't remember what that formation is called), and occaisionally a verb; in the intransitive sense, used to describe a person as being "gendered," it's only used as a verb in order to construct the past participle. Similarly (by and large) with "transgendered." But now I understand what you meant, and I agree -- that paragraph wasn't as well-reasoned as it ought to have been. And, yes, she should have made it clear from the outset that the first paragraph was a quotation. That confused me for a moment as well, but I was more on board with the sentiment she expressed, so it didn't take long to figure it out.

I hope you grade my posts on Susan's more generously. I swear if I were in your class, I would edit proofread and proofread more carefully!  ;D
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another.

   - Anatole France
  •  

dyssonance

Well, according to the top three dictionaries -- who determine a word's position by paying attention to its widest use in print and spoken language -- transgender is both a noun and an adverb.

Not on or the other, but both.

So, grammatically speaking, anything one can do to a noun or an adjective is correct, and while we, as trans folk, may or may not have a problem with that, language is an exceptionally democratic concept -- and not a repreentative one, either.  One votes by how one uses it, and the winner is decided by how its most often used.

That's not pleasant to hear, for many, but then the dictionaries also define it as someone who appears to be changing their sex, so there's a lot more to be upset about.

transgendery, transgendered, transgenderish, transgender, Transgender, trangendered, to transgender, and so forth -- yep, you can do it.

Just don't expect to make many fans among trans folks when ya do.  Then again, even counting strictly crosdressers, the best numbers we can get are about 9% of the population.

So there's not a whole lot of likelihood of it changing a way that trans folk like any time soon.
Thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunky world, make, each of us, one non-flunky, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Thomas Carlyle)
  •  

Shana A

Quote from: dyssonance on November 04, 2009, 02:50:43 AM
transgendery, transgendered, transgenderish, transgender, Transgender, trangendered, to transgender, and so forth -- yep, you can do it.


My mother would have us use the new word in a sentence.

Zythyra is feeling a bit transgenderish today  ;D

or

My, that outfit is truly transgendery....      :laugh:

Z
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


  •  

dyssonance

my my, what a transgenderlicious response, Z!

(and with that, before I am egged to death, I shall quickly withdraw...)
Thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunky world, make, each of us, one non-flunky, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Thomas Carlyle)
  •  

Shana A

Quote from: dyssonance on November 04, 2009, 06:57:12 AM
my my, what a transgenderlicious response, Z!

(and with that, before I am egged to death, I shall quickly withdraw...)

Ooooh Dyss, that new word is transtastic! It makes me want to sing... supercalitransgenderliciousexpialidocious  :laugh:

Z
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


  •  

Alyssa M.

Quote from: dyssonance on November 04, 2009, 02:50:43 AMOne votes by how one uses it, and the winner is decided by how its most often used.

First, dictionaries often respond to the input of groups that either use or are described by words. So it's not entirely democratic; some people do have more votes. Scientists get more input in scientific terms, economists in economic terms, philosphers in philosophical ones, etc., partly because they use the words more often. Also, when many members of a group find a particular term derogatory, that is often noted.

Second, the voting hasn't finished. Sinced "transgender" is a fairly recent neologism, its usage is still in flux. And I'm in the "transgendered" campaign.

Of course, there are plenty more important things to worry about. This debate is not a political or social, nor even semantic, but purely syntactic. And I think syntax is interesting. The political/social/semantic debate is over whether what "transgender" means (aside from part of speech).
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another.

   - Anatole France
  •