Immigration, is it real?

[Terra]

So let me ask you this, and I know its not tg related but...

Right now to come from another continent to live and work you have to sign papers and be recorded. You have to work with the system to even step on the soil of the USA. However:

1. Any Cuban who lands on american soil is desinated a citizen. IF they can land on the soil, which though many are turned back, many still make it.

2. The mexican border is a joke, as it does almost nothing to stem the tide of illigals from mexico and the southern americas.

Let me say i'm not whiter supremist, not a bigot, and I totally agree with letting people become americans. What I DISAGREE with is the lack of anything done to turn away illigals. I know plenty of immigrant citizans, but with the goverment providing aid to ANYONE who applies for it, and this includes welfare i'm told, just what is the advantage to go through the system to become a citizen?

I get so mad when people keep saying that we are violating people's rights by sending them back across the boarder. I'm sorry but in my opinion when you break a law you break a law and should suffer the consequenses, even if that means deportation.

So what do you all think? Should illigal immigrants or even immigrants in general have the same rights as a full citizen, natural or earned?

[cindianna_jones]

Here are my thoughts on the illegal immigration:

If people are to live here, their children should receive a proper education and health care. Otherwise we will unintentionally be sponsoring the development of future criminals.

Companies and Employers should pay minimum wage along with FICA, SDI, and Medicaid taxes for ALL employees.

All of a sudden we would see that Americans would want to do those jobs.  And if you had to pay minimum wage, wouldn't you really rather have someone you can understand? And if they couldn't get work because the jobs have been filled, would immigrants still come?

I do agree we should do everything we can to deport people we catch coming across the border.  They should be shipped back immediately.  Building this 700 mile fence seems pretty stupid to me.  What a waste. 

I liked Heinlen's concept of service and voting. I think that every young person should do two years of national service.  They could help patrol the borders.  All politician's kids would be the first on the line in any conflict in the armed services.  That would also keep us from doing anything stupid.

Cindi

[Rana]

Elissa,  It seems to me that one sure way to be labled a raceist, white supremist etc.  Is to make a statement like you did.  It is a favourite tactic of those people whose agenda is ..............what? certainly not something I would recognise.
It dosen't matter what the concerns are, any interference with the untrammeled rights of people to move anywhere they want, legally or illegally, without any commitment to the institutions & mores of the target country has got to be raceist.  The holders of such 'backward' views To be mocked, reeducated, punished.

Now I feel that the citizens of a country have the right to determine who they admit as citizens, and whether that is based on economic, political and yes even raceist (or more accurately culturalist) belief - then that is a matter for the citizens of that democracy to address.

The problem is firstly the will, and then the mechanism for achieving this.  A sure fire way of stopping illegal migration in its tracks is to shoot them when they come over the border - but there is no country (other than barbaric failed states who could do this).
You would need a special police force to catch the illegal aliens; the Swiss national police force is a very good example - and I believe that they were originally modeled on the Gestapo.  And then what?  its an established tactic of illegal aliens, economic migrants whatever, to destroy any evidence of where they came from - so send them back where?
Cindi's suggestion of an enforced minimum wage etc sounds really effective - but its a pipe dream,  US businesses are benefiting from desperate illegal aliens - work for peanuts, powerless to give any problems.  Illegal immigrants to the US could be greatly reduced if proper work visas were issued,  the present (lack of a) system benefits too many people.

Cindi you have mentioned the two things that would not stop illegal immigration.  A proper industrial relations system.  And the concept of service.  Seems that Robert Heinlen's concept of responsibilities as well as rights are considered amusing, - however I think he was spot on in this.   Yet we both know that both these things are wishful thinking, especially in the US

Finally, just to remember - the other side to a lot of illegal immigration, is the devastating effect on the home societies of the emigrants - all the young people are leaving, social continuity is being damaged to the great worry of those left behind.

Welcome to the new world - I can remember discussing this with janc,  she could see advantages, to me I can see destruction

Rana

[Steph]

While illegal immigration is a problem in many, many countries and there doesn't seem to be a viable solution that has been tabled.  Many complain that they take away the jobs of the legal citizens however if the illegals don't do this minimal wage work, who is going to do it.  Sure employers could raise wages but then the cost of products would also rise because of this.  I would thing that when our own citizens are willing to do these mundane, mindless jobs then we could argue but the truth is look at how many legals are taking advantage of us by sponging off the tax payer through government hand outs and the like.

Just my thoughts.  I'm not condoning illegals just saying that we need to clean up our own back yard first.

Steph

BTW I used to pick potatoes every summer for minimum wage.

[cindianna_jones]

Steph, here in the US, immigrant workers are paid slaves. They do not receive minimum wage. No one could live on what they make.  They band together to rent an apartment somewhere.  When I lived in the southern region of CA, the apartment next to me had a dozen or more workers living there.  They are slaves for our society.  Pure and simple. It is NOT the right thing to do.

Workers can be paid a living wage and companies can make money when they do pay it.  A good example is General Motors.  They blame their workforce for the wages that they are paying to there base force.  Yet GM paid out last year 13 billion to GM execs in retirement pay... completely unfunded.  GM's laborers retirement funds have been funded by their laborers.  Not true for their execs.  33 percent of our health care expenses do not go to healthcare. They fund insurance companies with their executives being paid billions in compensation.   

We are returning to the robber baron age of over 100 years ago.  Don't believe it?  Check it out; read up on it.  Our civilization flourished in the 20th century as we brought up the middle class. As they accumulated discretionary income, they purchased new products.  Business started producing non essential things that could be purchased with this new powerful middle class.  They could buy things like a second car, televisions, and refridgerators.

As a society, we don't see this picture yet.  It needs to get much worse.  When we realize what has happened, we'll have another labor movement to set things right. A generation or two will be lost to poverty in the process.

Cindi

[Steph]

Good points Cindy.  I guess it's a lot worse in the U.S.  The problem we have with illegals here in Canada seems to be miniscule by comparison.

Steph

[cindianna_jones]

Perhaps it is true.  Our biggest problems are not with illegal immigration.  Illegal immigration is the symbol and tool being used to divide our voting populace.  Once that is done, we can be manipulated.  It's a political trick being waged against us to divert us from the issues that would resolve our real problems.

It is racist. Pure and simple.  It is the oldest trick in the book.

Cindi

[Ricki]

I agree with Cindianna...
But its a shame this whole immigration thing is out of control it seems we have resources why are we not being diligent in returning these guys?
For God's sakes other countries far withdrawn from our human rights obsessiveness kills and murders people leaving or trying to enter?
I'm not advocating that just stating it.
R