Women are invisible as crossdressers?

[Nero]

A recent post made me think of something. I actually have a very typical TS story like many here - the starting out crossdressing as a kid, the taking on of a name contrary to my birth sex, etc. The only difference is that female bodied persons by definition are not crossdressers. I too went through the period as a tot of wearing my father's clothes, refusing to wear anything but boy's clothes, and asking to be called by a boy name - however while the reverse would be seen as horrifying in a male child, it was just seen as 'cute' on me. I also went through a phase at about 14 or 15 where I would confiscate my boyfriend's clothes in moves similar to mtfs with their wives' clothes. Again, this is seen as 'cute'.
It's not about the clothes, but then why isn't it about the clothes for female bodied crossdressers? How come I didn't get to shock people when I went out like male crossdressers?  Doesn't seem fair! 

[Nero]

It's also very important to point out that there are many women born transsexual that never "cross-dressed" prior to transitioning.  I'm one of them, and I've heard of many others as well.

Well, I mean crossdressing as in dressing in the clothes opposite your assigned sex at birth. So, you mean you never wore women's clothes prior to transition?

[Janet_Girl]

Because you were female bodied.  Cross Dressing is really looked upon as something abnormal.  But be a male and do the same thing and you get labeled as "->-bleeped-<-" or "Pervert" or "Pedophile".  When females do it, it is looked at as being "Cute", "Aggressive" or a "Man Hater".

And as a MtF, it wasn't about the clothes ether.  It was about just feeling right and enjoying the view in the mirror for once.

Trust me that being seen as a cross dresser when you are really Trans, is not a good thing.  It plays on your physic and your self esteem.  Besides you are "Nero".  All Hail Nero.



Hugs and Love Always,
Janet

[Nero]

No, I didn't. 

Oh. Okay, I guess it may not be as prevalent as I thought. 

[Alyssa M.]

It's far from universal, but many do it. I sure as heck did.

The thing about clothes is that when women wear men's clothes, it's a mark of liberation, so even if it's transgressive, it doesn't upset people's sense of men's superiority. But when men wear women's clothes, it's a debasement. At least, that's how a lot of people see it. Anyway, that's why I think the asymmetry is there. But there's a limit -- I don't think people see Leslie Feinberg as "cute."

I'm one of those who cross-dressed before transitioning. It's a double-edged sword as far as coping mechanisms go. It was a way for me to privately cling to my feminine identity, but it was also a nasty reminder of what I didn't have. There were other things I didn't do; for example I started to read one of my sisters' copy of Little Women when I was ten or twelve, and I just got disenchanted, because it was describing an experience I was cut off from. I envied my sisters' ballet lessons, but refused to take lessons myself (my mother specifically offered), because it would just highlight my alienation.

We all find ways to try to be true to ourselves and honor our identities before transitioning, and they all come with the potential of making us feel even worse by seeming to be a foretaste of a feast that will never come, and they are all either too transgressive to be acceptable, or so acceptable that nobody notices or cares.

[Kaori]

Well, I mean crossdressing as in dressing in the clothes opposite your assigned sex at birth. So, you mean you never wore women's clothes prior to transition?

Not to derail the topic of the thread, but I wanted to chime in with a fun but fairly related thought I had:

Aside from pre-teen years, I never cross-dressed out of the privacy of my own bedroom (alone).  And I was about to end my post with that, but then I recalled something.

I dressed in gothic clothes a lot in the 90's (and no, I wasn't the emo goth kid down the street - I was a musician who was into industrial/techno/goth music) at the time.  Including, but not limited to, stalkings, skirts, ankle/wrist/neck leather straps, knee high boots, punk/goth make up... etc.

Becoming and remaining (for a while) a part of the goth crowd was my vehicle for cross-dressing however much or however little I wanted to.  Though the music/band/clubs and stuff were a motivation, I'd be in denial if I said the latter was my only motivation.

Otherwise - no, I never cross-dressed until I started my transition.



[edit: past tense]

[barbie]

In patriarchical societies, if a woman behaves like an ideal man, she will be an heroine to be respected by all people (e.g., Jeanne d'Arc); if a man behaves like an ideal woman, he will be a mockery or an ideal subject for satire and comedy. I thnk that is why women are allowed so easily to wear men's clothes.

Barbie~~

[tekla]

she will be an heroine to be respected by all people (e.g., Jeanne d'Arc)

Only half will.  The other half will, as I recall, burn her alive at the stake for being a witch or some such.

[Valentina]

To me, a female crossdresser is a drag king.  Anything less than that is just being a tomboy which by societal standards is 'ok'.

[Alyssa M.]

Valentina -- I think that was precisely his point.

[Silver]

I have short hair. I wear men's clothes, no makeup or anything. Bind pretty lightly. I don't really socialize with women. Nobody really cares. Couple of my friends say I look like a dyke. My mother doesn't really approve, but she's not stopping me.

So yeah, we're pretty invisible. If a male-bodied person grew long hair, padded his/her chest, wore makeup and only talked to women they would definitely get more attention than me.

[insanitylives]

I've noticed that.

It's not too weird if I go out in baggy jeans and a sweater that makes people do a double take if they're trying to figure out how to address me (of course, they have to err on the side of female...freaking moobthings)

But if my seven year old brother wants to borrow my hair gel (my hair's too long to do anything with right now, so I don't have a problem letting him)...Hell Breaks Loose.

WTF?
Double standards much.

I suppose the double standards positive/negative for men/women even out, but it's still stupid.

[Valentina]

Forgot to say that I never crossdressed before transition either.  I was 7 months into my RLE when I wore a skirt for the first time in my life.  Whilst I can understand that a transsexual woman might experiment with female clothes before she transition to relieve stress or what not, that doesn't mean that a hardcore crossdresser is transsexual.  True crossdressers have a male gender identity & they aren't transsexual.

If he gets sexually turned on by wearing female clothes & masturbates whilst doing it, that makes him a fetishistic ->-bleeped-<- but you all know that, don't you?

[Erica2Sweet]

In patriarchical societies, if a woman behaves like an ideal man, she will be an heroine to be respected by all people (e.g., Jeanne d'Arc); if a man behaves like an ideal woman, he will be a mockery or an ideal subject for satire and comedy. I thnk that is why women are allowed so easily to wear men's clothes...

I agree entirely. This is an example of societal programming which tells the majority what is socially acceptable and what is not. I personally think it has a lot to do with the mental image and feelings most women wish to cling to when they think of a "man", along with the human males' seemingly constant need to remain competitive with other men both for the sake of their individual egos, and to remain attractive in the eyes of women. In my view this has all perpetuated some sort of narrow stereotype men now need to fit into. Its pretty unfair but it is the reality.

Put any label you (you - as in anyone) want on a woman who wears mens clothes, its still socially acceptable.

[Arch]

I thought of myself as a cross dresser, and occasionally identified myself as such to other people, for about five years before I began to call myself transgender.

Why? FEAR. I had read a book about FTM transsexuals and felt a tremendous sense of excitement and relief. I thought, "At last, I know what I am." Yes, I could see myself in that mold. But it scared the bejeezus out of me. I couldn't handle it. So I gave myself permission to cut my hair and order men's dress shirts from Lands' End. (I thought I'd been trying so hard to be girly, but I never wore anything but t-shirts and Levi's in fair weather...I guess the long hair was my main concession.)

As a cross dresser, I was mostly invisible. Winter was the best. I put on a couple of extra layers and went around with my then-boyfriend and enjoyed the experience of being called "->-bleeped-<-got" by obnoxious homophobes. Or the two of us would be called "gentlemen" or "fellas" by waiters.

I actually didn't much care whether the response was kindly meant or whether people had a positive reaction, as long as I was seen as a gay man.

ETA: When people were reading me as female, they never seemed to give a second thought to my clothing choices. A couple of times, this made me so steaming mad that I outed myself as a cross dresser. I don't think people understood.

[K8]

These are kind of small, but you might get the idea.

Here's the wonderful Marlene Dietrich:   Everyone loved it when Marlene dressed in her tux.

And here's the very funny Milton Berle:   And everyone laughed when Uncle Milty dressed in a dress.

- Kate

[rejennyrated]

Ok you all know that I'm crazy right? good - then I can tell you this... One of the fun things about having been a very young postop female was finding that I had the same sartorial freedom.

As a young woman I quite often wore trouser suits to work - (This was the 1980's, but ok they were of female cut) - and just to irritate the boys I would sometimes (very occasionally) also wear a collar and tie too! It was fun - a kind of crazy daring double bluff, which paradoxically actually helped to reinforce my stealth because at that time most people never imagined that any postop MtF would ever willingly choose to be seen wearing such things. Which of course was the whole idea!

I kind of invented boyfriend dressing years before it became a big fashion hit.

But I agree it is rather unfair that women have that freedom whilst men do not.

[cutejanessa]

I had gone through my whole life and wondered if anyone else had thought about this subject as well. I started my transistion about 5 months ago and before I could really say I started transitioning it always seemed that I wasn't dressing the way I felt I identified with my body but more that I was crossdressing which I felt wasn't the case. But to those that knew about my identity issue, that was their perception. But for any females I came across that were dressed in male clothing (whether they were ftm or not) no one ever really gave the smae friends never gave them a second thought. I think just at the moment ftm's have the opportunity to go about as are with little persecution (sp). But I have notices as of late that styles have changed and for a while there it was a hip thing for even straight natal men to where girls pants...so who knows equality for the matter at hand may be coming sooner than we think.