Point of Demarcation

[Tammy Hope]

Well, without drowning you in background, a few days ago my wife insisted on a blunt answer to the question - if you had to chose between transition and keeping your family which would you choose?

To which I simply said "I can never go back, i must move forward"

since then the discussion of what we are going to do next has gotten more intense...which is not the point of this thread.

The thing I wanted to comment on is that in the course of these conversations she has been very frank (more so than in the past) that she is not going to accept the concept that this is an inborn condition - a birth defect if you will. in her opinion it is a choice and thus I can choose to stop if I wanted to bad enough.

Upon reflection, it seems to me that this is THE fundamental dividing line for whether or not we can be accepted by anyone.

If it's a choice, we are morally responsible to our family at least, and accountable on some level to the people around us....if it is a condition then we are then worthy of compassion.

not that everyone is aware of that distinction but it seems to me that it lurks there, in the background, of every person's reaction.

[Janet_Girl]

Most think that this (GID) is the same as being Homosexual.  That we choose  it.  But having come from a place that was a place that could have taken my life.  It is not a choice.  Neither is being Gay, we are born to it.  Trust me. I pray that my ex and I were still together as man and wife.  But given this, I can only hope that one day I will be a good wife to a good man.

And saying that I can only say that I hope to be that good wife.  I will only pray that I will be pray of that family as wife and maybe mother.

Until then given the chance to sit it out or dance.  I choice DANCE.
Janet

[FairyGirl]

There is mounting scientific evidence that this is in fact a medical condition. But of course if you have the condition then you already know that, so scientific evidence is really only to confirm we aren't all a bunch of liars. In the Dark Ages people thought having a certain shaped birthmark meant you were in league with the devil. Times really haven't changed all that much.

[Hannah]

My birthmark looks like Italy, who does that make
me in league with?


And it's choose to dance, not choice to dance.

[FairyGirl]

the pope of course, duh

[Northern Jane]

The "condition" is not a choice but everything we do in life IS. When we take on a responsibility, make a commitment, we have given our word and it is up to us whether we honour that commitment or abandon it.

[jesse]

The "condition" is not a choice but everything we do in life IS. When we take on a responsibility, make a commitment, we have given our word and it is up to us whether we honour that commitment or abandon it.

This ^ i fear your situation is getting more precarious as the weeks go by laura hugs for the dark road ahead
jessica

[Northern Jane]

I ran out of time to continue my comment earlier....

We all make mistakes in life, do things we should not have done, and when we realize we are in that situation the only moral solution is to get back on the right path while minimizing the damage to others (as much as possible).

[Hannah]

its my first christmas alone in 26 years, please forgive me if i am a bit touchy   

aey we can forgive it, yous aren't alone tho, momma mia! Yous got your cousin Laura there, cousin Jesse, your cousin Chloe, your cousins Jane and Rebecca, and we even let crazy aunt Janet outa teh basement for teh holiday season. You're never completely alone but yeah with a Family like this I'd get a lil grouchy too 

oi, fugetabout what's her name and come have some pasta, there's meat sauce

[LordKAT]

its my first christmas alone in 26 years, please forgive me if i am a bit touchy   

Me too.

[alexia elliot]

Hi Laura, I sympathize with your situation for I am still ahead of one myself dreading the moment.

What we must realize is how our condition looks to others who have no intention nor resolve to understand what to mainstream of non professionals looks like a psychiatric condition. Harsh words, yet justified if taking their view without their sympathy or empathy. Take for instance Cancer, Someone gets it or not, there is no choice, but random( for most part) selection based on immune system inability to fight cancerous cells off. Once someone is diagnosed with it he can not choose one path or other but is thrown in the mids of it all to deal the best one can.
We on the other hand tool the choice, however grave and heavy, but we can choose to suppress our self into the gutter of survival burying all under 6 feet of dirt. To us is just like death to them is all back the same as it ever was. No, there is no compromise. No, they will not change. No, we are on our own. Yes, there is a future and it is awaiting us, how we play it out is not even entirely up to us, life is there to be lived, how we live it?  I don't think life even cares as long as we live it. I am embracing you in this season of supposed love and sharing, I am sorry you must go through exactly this right now, but maybe it is for better and will show you new Brave way. Be who you are, looks to me you have already chosen this road, stay on it and love will present it self to you, it seems to work that way.
With Love, Alexia.

[Tammy Hope]

Well, I didn't really mean to be whining about her opinion specifically, just using it for an example...but I have to respond to the kind words.

Honestly I'm not really to the point of considering my own feelings about the idea i might be alone this time next year - or in some year to come - my heart bleeds right now not for my own potential loneliness but for hers.

I'd love to give her a "soft landing" as much as possible if we are going to separate.

(laying aside the real practical difficulties that would arise from separation here, just speaking of emotions)

I spent some time chatting on facebook with a local therapists last night (whom I'd be seeing clinically if i had the money) and we talked about her some and he agreed i was taking the right approach with her - there's some hope that when we get a little income she'll agree to see him for some counseling (she won't go to Memphis)

What I really started out to say here, though, was that the challenge, both for me and her and for folks in general, is to move people from one view to the other.

[alexia elliot]

Honey, it took 3000 years for civilization to realize that the earth was not the center of the universe, took another 1000 years to realize all life is precious and evolved from the simplest life form( not Adam and Eve although some still live in the dark ages I presume, God bless them )  It takes eons to change perception yet we only have a life time, or in our case, half the life time to grow whom we long to become. Unfortunately my advise however, wrong or wright, is to be selfish. For once be your self, unbound, free, true at unfortunate cost. It is selfish for us to ask our love ones to follow us through hell, and it is just that to them, hellish place. We must abandon them for their sake and carry on our path. We can only decide when to let them go, and that is our decision to make. I would love to have a message of love or something conventional like that but I always speak my mind( hate me or love me) I believe it to be true. Love will conquer all some day, Alexia

[Tammy Hope]

It is selfish for us to ask our love ones to follow us through hell, and it is just that to them, hellish place. We must abandon them for their sake and carry on our path.

That's not an invalid point of view but like all things, it's circumstantial.

without going into gorey details, I am able to say definitively that if she and I tried to separate and maintain two households we'd quite likely all end up homeless (or at least sponging off relatives who sacrifice to keep us off the street)

Right now the practicalities just are not there.

That kind of compels us to put extra effort into finding a truce.

[jesse]

hi hun
i have so much empathy for you i am faced with the same thing plus my daughter who will turn 6 in feb. the main difference between us is your love for her is very evident and the source of much of your pain im sure. in my case i dont love her but i dont want to hurt her or my child either. its a sad thing to come to the realization that you married to affect a male persona which was a complete lie then to bear a child into that lie is incredibly stupid and irrisponcible then to do it for times is unimaginable at least 3 of mine are grown. what a cowardly waste of a good womans love. so my main source of pain is trying to dimish the pain i caused. if at times i have seamed harsh in some responces its not meant that way i loath what i have done and sometimes project it w/o realizing it.
hugs
jessica

[K8]

Laura, I think your original post here hit the nail on the head.  Many people think we choose to be transgendered.  I for one don't remember getting to choose, but that's beside the point. 

Not that many years ago being homosexual was seen as a choice.  Many still think that, but more and more people realize it is just who they are.  It is not a "lifestyle" but an in-born trait.  Same with being transgendered.

Where the choice comes in is what you do about it.  If you can suppress it or deflect it, then you can choose not to express it.  However, many of us get to the point where we have to express it.

In my own experience, once I began to taste what it was like to be free I couldn't go back.  After a month as Kate, my sister asked me to resurrect the old me for a party of hers.  I told her that I just couldn't do it.  It was then she realized that this is very serious for me and not just something I'm doing for fun.

I've never been suicidal, fortunately, but I told my therapist that if I was forced back to having to live as a man I would just have to kill myself.  I just cannot go back.  (I have this theory that we expand once we get out of the cage, and that's why it's so hard to cram us back into it.)

I don't know how you can convince your wife that this is not a choice, Laura, other than to hold your ground while expressing concern for her in every way you can.  It is often the innocent bystanders who are hurt the most.

*hugs*
Kate

[lilacwoman]

Honey, it took 3000 years for civilization to realize that the earth was not the center of the universe, took another 1000 years to realize all life is precious and evolved from the simplest life form( not Adam and Eve 

Well Alexia if you took your clothes off and walked around a beautiful garden with maybe a fig leaf to hide your'e pre-op I think you'd look exactly like Eve did when she wandered round the Garden of Eden.
Do people still seriously doubt Creation?

[K8]

Well Alexia if you took your clothes off and walked around a beautiful garden with maybe a fig leaf to hide your'e pre-op I think you'd look exactly like Eve did when she wandered round the Garden of Eden.
Do people still seriously doubt Creation?

Uh, your kidding, right?  

Other than the billions of people in the world who don't use the Hebrew Bible as the basis of their belief system, most Christians, Jews and Muslims see the creation story as allegory.

- Kate

[MaggieB]

The choice issue really is clouded by the fact that for some part of our lives, we lived as our birth gender. The people around us wonder how we managed it before. I know one transwoman who is in her mid sixties and still has managed to live as a man. She does it purely for her family and she suffers. I did about the same thing and I suffered. So there is a matter of choice in being trans. The issue is that we choose to transition to end the suffering and people see that as being selfish. Think that all we have to do is shut up, keep dressing and acting in our birth gender and everyone forgets about it. Most family and friends don't care as they don't see the psychological damage and dysfunction it causes to repress one's true gender. To them it is out of sight, out of mind. I wonder how many suicides are the result of this phenomenon. "I had no idea he was so unhappy."

Maggie

[Dana_W]

The choice issue really is clouded by the fact that for some part of our lives, we lived as our birth gender. The people around us wonder how we managed it before. I know one transwoman who is in her mid sixties and still has managed to live as a man. She does it purely for her family and she suffers. I did about the same thing and I suffered. So there is a matter of choice in being trans. The issue is that we choose to transition to end the suffering and people see that as being selfish. Think that all we have to do is shut up, keep dressing and acting in our birth gender and everyone forgets about it. Most family and friends don't care as they don't see the psychological damage and dysfunction it causes to repress one's true gender. To them it is out of sight, out of mind. I wonder how many suicides are the result of this phenomenon. "I had no idea he was so unhappy."

I think Maggie hit it right on the head here. It's all about external perception. People in the outside world see us pass perfectly acceptably as our birth sex. It makes very little sense to them why we would want to "throw that away" and undertake the effort to be perceived as the opposite sex. Some chalk it up to a sexual fetish, or mid-life crisis induced temporary insanity, or drugs, or (I actually heard this one) demonic possession.

I'm not sure this one will go away any time soon because it is virtually impossible to explain what it feels like to be gender dysphoric. Most who try to understand it seem to think of it like something you really want but can't really have... like being on a diet and wanting a hot fudge sundae. Surely a little self-discipline is all that is needed to resist. "How selfish of you to choose a self-indulgent path which inflicts such pain and chaos on those closest to you," they tend to think. 

I think my own spouse has a little clearer understanding of it than most, as my final attempt to "choose" to repress it degraded into deeper and deeper depression, alcoholism, and progressive withdrawal from everyone around me. I've always made it clear to my spouse that THAT is what my choices truly are: To go back to that life, which probably would end by one means or another pretty quickly, or go forward with this one. Once she understood that those were my choices, she became a lot more supportive of my "going forward" decision.

And yes, I think there are a LOT of suicides resulting from this which get recorded as "motivation unknown."