Point of Demarcation

[MaggieB]

My spouse eventually accepted that my transsexuality was real and stopped actively fighting me. However, she remains adamant that it is a mental disorder because of all the episodes that I had where I was so depressed that I didn't leave a darkened room for days or even bother to clean myself. It was all because of external factors that I got so morose and unable to work. However, to her this is a sign of illness not a reaction to social pressure.

She does now believe that I am a woman or rather a sort of woman. Not really the same as she. She still holds that since I was not raised as a woman from birth, I am somehow not as female as she. In fact, she bristles when I speak about womens rights or issues. She says I have no right to discuss these so I have agreed to not bring up such topics.

She turned off her loving feelings towards me in a heartbeat when she accepted I was really a woman. We went from a loving couple who shared everything and kissed, caressed and were comfortable with seeing each other naked to acting like we are work colleagues. It would be a huge affront to her if I held her hand. My point is once they get it, they really get it.

Maggie

[Kendall]

I so appreciate everyone sharing their experience. I feel so much less alone and crazy. As a therapist it is easy to fall into expecting I should have it all together. As if. But I do know some things that might help others, at work and here. I think western European cultures tend to make some basic mistakes in understanding people. Contrary to popular belief, you cannot just become anything you want to. There are limits and directions that seem to be inborn in some way. Some are abilities - I will never be a theoretical Physicist, or a brilliant linguist. I do not have those abilities. Wiser, more "primitive" cultures more in touch with spiritual mysteries, had vision quests and other processes of self-discovery that we lack. We think logic and will can decide everything. They cannot. Not if we want health. Our emotions and spirits are more fundamental in some ways.

We also tend to believe there is something wrong with us if we are very upset or confused - and an adult should never need help with their own mind. I think there are situations in which crying and sadness are the only healthy response. Laura, I feel sadness for you and your wife. I also wonder if she wants to believe that you could make a different choice, so she would not have to feel sadness. I would guess you might also.

I think it is a Buddhist belief that pain is inevitable, but suffering is caused by fighting - not accepting and trying to erase or banish - normal painful feelings. And by trying to believe that the pain can be erased or avoided if only someone would fix it. That if we just wanted to badly enough, we could control these irrational feelings about who we really are.

It only took me 59 years to surrender.

[Cindy]

Some nice posts,
I think the perception that we are throwing away a perfectly good sex to "try" another is still in the mainstream. One question you see is "well you had an orgasm as a man and as a woman' which was better?" It is such an ignorant question but it does focus what people think. The idea we can pick and choose sexuality is one of the main problems. People who are not transgenderd NEVER understand the difference between sex and gender. Well males never do and females either .

Oh and by the way no one still believes in creationism do they?

Cindy

[Tammy Hope]

Oh and by the way no one still believes in creationism do they?

Cindy

Wildly off topic (and I forbid anyone else to come in here posting about this subject in my thread! ), but yes, a lot do - I know some of them.

and there are many others who wouldn't argue you to the death that there was, for instance, a literal world-wide flood but who fall along some spectrum of respect for those stories that would make most non-Americans faint.

But to get back to a specific answer to your question, in surveys a significant minority of Americans (40%?) believe to some degree in the idea of a biblical creation and nearly that many more believe God did create but not according to a literal interpretation of Genesis.

[Just Kate]

Unfortunately my advise however, wrong or wright, is to be selfish. For once be your self, unbound, free, true at unfortunate cost. It is selfish for us to ask our love ones to follow us through hell, and it is just that to them, hellish place. We must abandon them for their sake and carry on our path. We can only decide when to let them go, and that is our decision to make.

Wow, what a take!  It makes so much sense, it is hard to find where there is fault in the idea, but I cannot disagree more.

By making the choice to abandon others we deny them the choice of accompanying us.  We essentially decide by doing so that those who love us do so conditionally and therefore we spare them the opportunity to continue to love us.  I think that shows an incredible lack of respect for those who care for us.  We must bring others along, share our burdens with them and give them the opportunity to come along or help shoulder some of the load.  By doing so we become stronger, our relationships become stronger, and we act out of great respect and love for them.  They, of course, might not choose to come along, but you have shown them how much you care about them by not cutting them out of the equation with something that is important to you.

I want to say more, but I'm still so flabbergasted at this attempt at justification for abandoning those close to us in selfish pursuit.  There just might be no better way to fail than to follow this advice.

[K8]

I think western European cultures tend to make some basic mistakes in understanding people. Contrary to popular belief, you cannot just become anything you want to. There are limits and directions that seem to be inborn in some way.

Kendall, I think you are right here and in the rest of your post.  I only have one child, but I was amazed at how much personality and various traits she had "out-of-the-box" - evidently pre-installed.  It is an American myth (i.e., story that forms the culture) that each of us can be anything.

And Interalia, I think you are right, too.  I am a widow, but it was very important to me to tell all my close friends what I planned to do before doing anything.  I wanted to give them the opportunity to accept me or reject me.  I felt it was only courtesy and respect for them and our friendship.  I've battled people on this site about that - people who want to make all the changes before springing them on anyone – but never understood my deep uneasiness with that method until reading your post.  Thank you.

- Kate

[alexia elliot]

Hi Interalia, absolutely, I agree, one sided view. That is why I say wright or wrong, however, the argument isn't about sharing your emotions with ones you love and asking them for help, reason, support but rather it is an after fact beyond the point of all that above, it is when they do not accept, when they do not see an ounce of future together that is when I make my point of walking away and proposing just as a speculation that at this moment they might be released from our intent and then be free to decide purely from their own perspective weather they still are willing to stay or cut us off. When initially posting to this subject I was already aware of the problem Laura was having of loved ones not willing to follow her footsteps, despite of her multiple tries to bring them along. I do not claim to have the wisdom nor my view being correct, and I am upfront by posting my own doubts, and I appreciate your point of view regarding exhausting all possible "Love" avenues before committing to the last resort. But there might be the time where you stand by the crossroads and must make a decision to release you and others from bounds of despair and hopelessness. 
Post Merge: December 24, 2009, 01:08:25 PM
Laura honey, I wish you peace of mind and so that everyone close to you will finally understand and be willing to stay through the thick and thin, Merry Christmas Babe and Merry Christmas to everyone here. Love will save us all, some day  .

[Kendall]

About "selfishness" - I believe there is a value in finding a balance. Which means you cannot ignore others' needs - but you cannot ignore your own needs either.

Sometimes balance is very hard and painful to achieve.

[Tammy Hope]

statistics indicate that approximately 30% of all trans people attempt suicide at least once in their life, and of those attempts, 50% succeed.



i am spending my first christmas alone in 25 years.  we still love each other very much, but GID hurt both of us very deeply.  i think we will eventually end up as you...perhaps best friends but never again intimate.

while this makes me incredibly sad, i could not go back to pretending to be him even to have that back.  i have come too far, and done too much.  i dont have a choice.  i dont think that i ever really did.

one size does not fit all.  most of us, i would assume, have done the best we can for as long as we can.  you have no idea the years of hell i lived through -- she and i lived through -- when i attempted to "share my burdens" with her.  she accused me of abandoning her, and being selfish, yeah i heard it all.

well guess what, she would have lost me anyway, either way.  if i had not transitioned i would surely be dead.  of this i have no doubt; may 26th's failed attempt was a dry run, i would not have failed a second time.

selfish pursuit??  i stuck it out for 45 years.  i raised my kids.  i took care of my family. i did everything expected of me until i could do it no longer.  i KNEW that the result of my transitioning would be to "abandon" her; in her eyes, and perhaps yours as well.  i ASKED her to come with me on this path.  she said THAT was the most selfish thing i had ever said. 

just as i do not know the pain and struggles you have gone through in your decisions, neither do you know mine.

i did the best i could.

i now return you to this thread, and i now return to my empty house.

Oh my.

I relate to the body of this post so much I could have written it myself.

thank you for that. I surely know how tough a place you are in - i can easily imagine being alone next Christmas - This sort of thing reminds me again how fortunate we are to have this place where we can at least know we are not alone in our situations.

I'll be thinking of you tonight and tomorrow.

[Tammy Hope]

What ho!

Might I benefit from the law of unintended consequences?

Let me explain.

Family Christmas dinner today - another one of those "dress like a man for the kids" deals.

So I "dialed back" a bit, though not as much as at thanksgiving. I tried to get to the point where I could be confident the kids wouldn't give any thought to things, the idea being if there was a protest it would be based on what the adults saw, whatever the invitation had said.

In the weeks leading up to the occasion my wife was asked maybe a dozen times "Are yall coming?" and it threw up a red flag for us and we've been speculating just what's going on there since they've never been that concerned about RSVP before.

We kind of came to the conclusion that it was one part morbid curiosity, one part seeing if I'd behave, one part snooping to try to see if there was tension between us and one part looking for an opening to create division.

For sure it wasn't innocent.

So anyway - we went, and most of them ignored me completely (which I fully expected) and after we left she told me that was why she hadn't wanted to go because she wouldn't like how they treated me (!) and she was right.

I told her - sincerely - not to sweat it because I had expected it and frankly wasn't worried about the opinion or behavior of any of those who were rude.

Anyway, we got back into the discussion of what there motivations might have been and she concluded that they were probably hoping to see us falling apart....by extension to see HER fall apart and, in her words, "coming running to them" for help.

And she said "I'd sooner sleep under the bridge as go to those people for help"

Anyway....not a lot of evidence yet, mainly just intuition....but I get the sense that the more that bunch is against me, the more she'll try very hard to make it work just to prove them wrong. She has always had a real defiant streak when it came to those folks trying to use or manipulate her.

[Cindy]

Sorry Laura for my earlier distraction in your thread.

Sounds as if she is supporting you as well as can be expected.
I am amazed by the "morbid curiosity" people have about each other. Is because "we" are different and they want to see us as different or they cannot accept themselves. Sorry that is obscure. Many none TG people go to drag acts at clubs or also watch them on TV (no pun intended). The holler and laugh and never seem to be upset or insulted. Even though the entertainer may be very cutting in their humour. Are we supposed to be the drag act? Or are the crappy programs that feature ->-bleeped-<-s, I'm trying to think of the name - Jerry Springer (?) that appear to be widely watched leading this sort of motivation.
i.e. Lets invite Cindy to the party she'll be a laugh to look act. When and ever do they realise we don't do this for a joke or for entertainment.

I do remember in the 70-80's people inviting the token gay to dinner parties as some sort of trophy to demonstrate their acceptance and worldliness. I know your family is way off that and probably doing exactly what you thought. Trying to be mean and nasty.

Cindy