Dating and relationships.

[gqueering]

Tekla, you said:
And, then, do all the hard work.  Pay attention to them. Cater to them - they expect it.  They don't think its a form of oppression, they think of it as respect.  Most women/girls expect that all the social formalities and graces (opening doors, carrying stuff like a pack mule, opening doors while carrying stuff like a pack mule, pulling the chair out, helping with the coat, etc) will be carried out.  They don't think 'oh that's nice' they think "That's Right!'. 

Really?? See when I used to think "I must be a woman" I would hear this sort of thing and think "that is such a load of f*k'n bull crap!".  But then 'other' women would say, well, actually it's not. Eventually I realised I'm not like them...blah blah.

But to be honest, I'm still not 100% convinced. Do all women want this or just some? Or do you just assume they want it that way and they're too polite to contradict you? Or are only hetero women like this?

So, would you mind if I posted the above quote as a seperate thread and asked those who identified as women to respond to it? I'm really curious to see if they think you've got it right.  But I'll only do it with your permission ofcourse (or you can post it if you like).

[Brynn]

Hun, I noticed that a lot of users are ushering you not to be out about being trans. The thing is, while it's totally understandable that they do not relish 'outing themselves' unnecessarily, (I'm not being down on them- it's very reasonable to not want/need to tell people what's in your pants when it doesn't need to be their business) there is nothing wrong with you being open about your identity if you yourself are comfortable with it, and from the sounds of it, it could very well help to negate unwanted expectations/views of you.

The truth of the matter is, if you are just out as a guy, and not as trans, well... You are a guy, but due to the ratio of cisgendered guys to transsexual ones, it'll be assumed that you're cisgendered. Or worse, since you're pre-T and may not pass 100%, if you aren't out about being a transguy or at least a guy, people may even simply assume you're a woman, blargh! And when your lover 'finds out' that you aren't cisgendered, there could be problems- so if you're comfortable being out as a transguy, by all means, let people know so you don't get stuck in a drama crapstorm with someone who expects/assumes you're cisgendered and discovers (possibly with utter dismay!) that you are not!

I know you were saying before that you're wary about dating someone who identifies as lesbian, because they might try to see you as a woman- the thing is, most 'straight' men will do the same, and 'straight' girls have the potential to freak out and blow up or not be interested at all, as well, due to the 'trans status'. My advice is, don't be too scared of experimenting with dating a gay girl, because really, if you avoid gay girls because they 'might be weird to you', you're judging lesbians in the same way you DO NOT want other people to judge *you*,  in regards to dating, as a transguy. With any gender, sex, or orientation, there is the potential for your lover to try to see you in ways that are more appealing to them; avoiding gay women will not eliminate potential for this to happen.

Honestly, since you're comfortable being out as trans, wear it on your sleeve so people 'know what they're getting into', and then date whoever is appealing to you, really. Issues are a possibility for transpeople with any orientation or sex or gender, so don't be too afraid. After all, you don't want other people acting afraid or hesitant about you, so do other gender identities/sexual orientations a favor by not stereotyping them too much.   It's unfortunate that many romantic relationships between a transperson and just about anyone else has to have a Trans 101 at some point, but since you're out as trans, may as well bring it up from the get-go and get a feel for how understanding your love interest is, and go from there.

Be upfront. If a lesbian girl is interested in you, assert your male identity and explain it to her, to make sure you're both on the same page and you're not being objectified as female-bodied. Explain what it means to be trans, and decide if you want to pursue relations with the person based on their responses, not their sexual label. Let her know you may be on T one day, and that it means you will probably be hairy and have a small dick/huge clit, and find out how she feels about this: ask her how she feels about body hair, how she feels about things stereotypically considered to be masculine body traits.

Many of the 'lesbians' and 'former lesbians' I've met have more pansexual tendencies, some of them even realize later on in life that they're transsexual themselves and therfore, 'straight' with their dating of women! Just as with straight people, many gays have not really experimented with the boundaries of their orientation. Some of them honestly don't want to; others just haven't thought about it or had the chance to experiment and discover. A surprising amount of lesbians simply identify that way because they have 'ended up' dating other women more than anything, haven't discovered the boundaries of their orientation, and/or simply haven't had the chance to date a transguy or other-gendered person who is appealing to them. We're kind of like unicorns, most people, gay or not, haven't knowingly encountered us often enough to have had the chance to date us.  Benefit of the doubt, anyone?

I admit I got lazy about checking this thread. Partly because so many of you just told me to just try to pass as a cis guy and deal with the trans thing later.

I think your advice is some of the most sound I've received yet, as well as the most understanding. Thank you.

[Alessandro]

I have met people almost exclusively online but I havent had a single successful relationship yet.  I think my life up till now has been all about finding myself, now I have figured all this stuff out I don't know how to describe myself on online dating sites. 

I know the relationship I would like but I think I need to wait before it can happen.  Until I am feeling better about myself I don't think I can expect another person to love me. 

If we're talking about hookups, that's different.  I have to admit I have hooked up just for sex and kept it at that but its something I see as a completely different page to my love life.  I am probably going to give this up too, because I obsess more about how the person is seeing me and get no pleasure out of it! 

I think the moral is to wait until you are feeling good with yourself before letting others in to your world. 

[Walter]

I have a girlfriend on the internet. We've chatted for months. She's pre-everything MtF

I thought for sure she'd reject me since she's Asexual and what I thought Aromantic but surprisingly she didn't. I'm happy. Like with every relationship I'm in, it'll probably end but I'll hope that it doesn't

[Kurzar]

All my relationships started from guys I met online thru whatever site I was apart of. One was before I came out as a Transguy, my hubby (current) married him then came out. Next was a BF we both shared...he didn't work out, and last BF we are still with and he's dealing with his house so he can move in with us. We've all 3 been together since march of this year.

Both are gay cismales, but all their life portrayed themselves as 'straight'. They now consider themselves gay and see me as a male despite not being on T yet.  They do exist out there and don't discount online. Sure it might not always work out, but neither do those started face to face. It's a valid option, tho hard if you live far from them.  I wish you luck tho =D

[Alessandro]

All my relationships started from guys I met online thru whatever site I was apart of. One was before I came out as a Transguy, my hubby (current) married him then came out. Next was a BF we both shared...he didn't work out, and last BF we are still with and he's dealing with his house so he can move in with us. We've all 3 been together since march of this year.

Both are gay cismales, but all their life portrayed themselves as 'straight'. They now consider themselves gay and see me as a male despite not being on T yet.  They do exist out there and don't discount online. Sure it might not always work out, but neither do those started face to face. It's a valid option, tho hard if you live far from them.  I wish you luck tho =D

You know I am very jealous of you!  I think to be with a pair of gay men that see me as a man too is like my dream.  I am very happy to hear that such combinations exist out there and can work out.   

[Kurzar]

You know I am very jealous of you!  I think to be with a pair of gay men that see me as a man too is like my dream.  I am very happy to hear that such combinations exist out there and can work out.   

It's far from easy. With all the depression I'm going thru and suicidal tendencies, it's put our relationships in a vice many times. They back me 100%, but my 0 self esteem makes things rough.

[FlorDeLuna]

Tekla, you said:
And, then, do all the hard work.  Pay attention to them. Cater to them - they expect it.  They don't think its a form of oppression, they think of it as respect.  Most women/girls expect that all the social formalities and graces (opening doors, carrying stuff like a pack mule, opening doors while carrying stuff like a pack mule, pulling the chair out, helping with the coat, etc) will be carried out.  They don't think 'oh that's nice' they think "That's Right!'. 

Really?? See when I used to think "I must be a woman" I would hear this sort of thing and think "that is such a load of f*k'n bull crap!".  But then 'other' women would say, well, actually it's not. Eventually I realised I'm not like them...blah blah.

But to be honest, I'm still not 100% convinced. Do all women want this or just some? Or do you just assume they want it that way and they're too polite to contradict you? Or are only hetero women like this?

So, would you mind if I posted the above quote as a seperate thread and asked those who identified as women to respond to it? I'm really curious to see if they think you've got it right.  But I'll only do it with your permission ofcourse (or you can post it if you like).

See, I don't think "that's Right!".. I think "WOW! A guy who actually acts like a gentleman!"   LOL- then again... depending on the day I might think " I can open the D*mn door myself! Get out of my way!"
Depends on if I feel particularly feminist.

I think almost everything else was spot on though.   There does seem to be this persistant thought that straight women will freak or not be accepting, but I just don't think that's true. Maybe I have a more open group of friends but I know that of the women I know... there would be maybe one who would reject a man based on his having a small/ non functioning/ no- penis.  And she's a whore anyway. I think the women who would actually do that are few and far between.

[Lachlann]

See, I don't think "that's Right!".. I think "WOW! A guy who actually acts like a gentleman!"   LOL- then again... depending on the day I might think " I can open the D*mn door myself! Get out of my way!"
Depends on if I feel particularly feminist.

I think almost everything else was spot on though.   There does seem to be this persistant thought that straight women will freak or not be accepting, but I just don't think that's true. Maybe I have a more open group of friends but I know that of the women I know... there would be maybe one who would reject a man based on his having a small/ non functioning/ no- penis.  And she's a whore anyway. I think the women who would actually do that are few and far between.

How would you feel about that in a culture where someone opens the door  for you no matter what's between your legs? 

And I agree, I think a lot of FTMs are underestimating straight women, women or people in general when it comes to this thing. We're experiencing this problem every second of our lives, but to other people it's not nearly as big to them. Hence why it's so hard to get some people to understand, but in my experience I've known a lot of straight women who didn't care at all.

Have a little more faith, guys.

[Teknoir]

Well some of us are so used to being ignored, patronized, and otherwise devalued for what's between our legs that it's no wonder some of us underestimate just how accepting a potential partener can be.

It's also kinda hard to accept acceptance from someone else while you still hate your own body.

I have no solution, that's just my take on the problem. Some of us don't lack faith without a reason.

[Lachlann]

Well some of us are so used to being ignored, patronized, and otherwise devalued for what's between our legs that it's no wonder some of us underestimate just how accepting a potential partener can be.

It's also kinda hard to accept acceptance from someone else while you still hate your own body.

I have no solution, that's just my take on the problem. Some of us don't lack faith without a reason.

And I go through all of that, especially being patronized.

I don't like my body for many reasons either. Gender reasons, constant pain, disorders, etc... but it's not very realistic to think this way when there's a huge world out there with several different kinds of people and loads of proof of successful relationships that are able to see passed our conditions. I see people almost every day underestimate technology and other people and it blows my mind.

Let me put it this way, and to clarify I'm not making jabs at people when I say this or be patronizing, but crawling seems a lot safer than if you were standing. When you're standing the fall is a lot longer and more painful, and when you're crawling around it's easier to resume the crawling position, right? But the thing is, when you're on the floor all you see is the crap on the ground and when you look up, the good things seem so far away and so you don't really see it... but in turn no one really sees you, because they've got better things to do than look at the ground. However, if you actually stand up and learn to see the good things then you start to realize that crawling around isn't worth it.

And this is the thing. Low expectations might work if you're going to see a movie, but in life? Very rarely does someone come to 'save' you, and if they do it's usually when you've gotten fed up. I think we all know that, hence why some of us have decided to do something about it in whatever way that may be is up to them. But we're on this site, so we know this. And honestly, I think some of us are creating more negativity by underestimating and having low expectations. Is it your fault? Not you being transgendered or having difficult things to deal with, or heck, feeling bad about it... but you can make yourself feel a lot worse than necessary.

A stranger might not make you feel better about your dysphoria, I agree, but it's more about us than it is about someone else. Like I said, very rarely does someone come along and 'save' us, a lot of this is about how we deal with it, not someone else.

[tekla]

See, I don't think "that's Right!".. I think "WOW! A guy who actually acts like a gentleman!"

For the women I know who use that - and they both have a highly personal way of expressing that phrase - its based on two things.  First, they are aware they are dealing with men (and they are people who know men and are very comfortable with them), and men need (and want) direction and almost constant reassurance (at least when dealing with women).  So, in that sense I always took it as a reassuring deal, that yes, I was doing the right thing, behaving in the right way and all that.  Kind of in the same way a good boss goes around and keeps encouraging people to keep up the good work.

Second, and perhaps more important. I suppose you could use either of two words here - 'boundaries' or 'standards.'  They have some sort of general idea of what they want (if not an exacting very specific one) and they are not going to take less than that (or you better rise up to that).  Like the Fair where they have those signs on the carnival attractions: You must be this tall to ride kind of deal.

I suppose I could have put it "Yo, yo Homeboy! This is the way we roll, and if you want to roll with us you better get on board."

And to be sure, there are lot of women in the world who are far more interested in what's in your wallet then in your pants.  They have expectations of a standard of living and if they don't think its going to be you providing it, the rest does not matter at all.