Why the hostility?

[Kay]

I agree with a lot of what's been said so far.
.
I think part of the problem is that, whether they be young or old, newcomers to the trans-community don't understand how these terms have been used in the past, nor do they understand what that past usage means to the members of the trans-community at large.  Kind of like if a sheltered white farm kid moved to the inner-city, and started to use the word "Nigga" with their new black friends.  In either case, people tend to react out of offense first...sometimes violently (whether verbally or physically)...often failing to explain where their feelings of offense and hostility come from.  Sometimes, when rejected from the initial group, a person might think their derogatory usage of the term justified, instead of examining their word choice further.
.
Sometimes younger transitioners...being so different from their cis-peers....in their quest to see themselves as real...legitimate...genuine...(I think we've probably all felt a lack of those things at some time or other) latch onto such terms, not realizing (and with some...not caring) what the further implications for others might be (ie.  'I'm real/genuine' being most important to them...with the unthought/unspoken  'but you're not' often not even realized)...especially since often, at first, they have no real contact with those who would be effected by those implications (ie. older trans people).  They use the terms, because they think those are the terms they're supposed to use.  (not being completely informed)
.
Ignorance is understandable, and should be expected in anything at first.
To feel offended by ignorant words is also understandable.
Unfortunately, neither position is particularly helpful in resolving these issues of division and hostility.
.
Just like with "nigga", when a community continues to use a derogatory/divisive term (even if that term is intended in a friendly way), it can be very confusing for newcomers.  Unfortunately, the trans community has not completely stopped using these "primary" and "secondary" labels.  They're old...archaic...out-moded....but will probably have to be explained and re-explained to newcomers for many years to come until they die out completely.
.
The easist thing to do when offended is to lash out right back at the offender.  With many...young or old...going through a 'second puberty' of sorts, it can be difficult to keep ones wits about them and respond with a cool head.  Often in finding ourselves, emotions run high in the forefront, and we can easily forget that we, like they, make mistakes too...and are in need of a little extra understanding at times.
.
It's just like the homosexual community.  We don't have two terms for homosexuals....one for those who are brought up in accepting/more-tolerant  environments and feel safe enough to be themselves from an early age....and one for those who don't.  We only have the one term.  When they come 'out of the closet'....they're gay/lesbian....not 'secondary-gay/lesbian.'  The terms 'primary' and 'secondary' in the trans community come from older times and philosophies best left in the past.
.
The maturity to let cooler heads prevail, so that an understanding can be reached is what is truly needed, but can be difficult to achieve at times.

[MeghanAndrews]

When it comes to the terms primary transsexual or Type VI transsexual?
....why the idea of PT or Type VI is so hated even though it occurs in such small numbers.

I think it's sad but kind of funny how people can get all up in arms about words and titles and boxes and stuff. I don't remember what those terms mean, I remember people getting worked up about primary vs. some other types of ts before, but I don't think it's a recent thing. I think the more that people live their lives offline and don't get all wrapped up in definitions and words and boxes and categories and things like that the better off we'll be. Hmm, that's kind of contradictory I guess. I dunno, I think we have a great community. I don't care if someone is a crossdresser who will never transition and gets off wearing underwear or if they transitioned at 12 and look great or they transitioned at 68 or they are IS or whatever. I love all of you, be who you are and try not to get too caught up in defining yourself by conventional terms.

Live your life, ask lots of questions, be a role model for others and smile along the way I have no clue what boxes anyone would put me in but I definitely am loving my life, I know that. I don't really think people need to try to justify their manhood or womanhood, if we'd spend more time accepting and less time trying to justify we'd probably be more of a community. Who knows though? I think we all agree that this is a great place we have and we fight sometimes but that we come here to have a sense of community, right? Big hugs! Meghan

[june bug]

Amen Meghan!

[Northern Jane]

I guess I used "the old terminology" because that was the 'current understanding' when I went through all that back in the 1960's.

The reason I posed the question in the first place is because I was one (under the old definitions) and I knew maybe a dozen others like me, young people who were so screwed up that they couldn't even make a pretence of being their birth sex back in the 1960's. They, the ones who survived and achieved SRS, disappeared into the woodwork to live normal lives. They/we are older now, have a lot of life behind us and have never had the chance to talk to others with the same experience - many have never had a chance to talk to ANYONE and that's sad. I have seen a few (very few) attempt to join forums but the response is often hostile - people denying the statements of the newcomer or saying "me to" when obviously their experience was much different, or saying "I would have, but ...." - all negating the experience of 'the old timer'. People want to be able to talk and share with people like themselves, people with the same experience.

I guess it is not a big deal. In another 20 years those who went through this pre-1975 will be gone anyway.

[MeghanAndrews]

They, the ones who survived and achieved SRS, disappeared into the woodwork to live normal lives. They/we are older now, have a lot of life behind us and have never had the chance to talk to others with the same experience - many have never had a chance to talk to ANYONE and that's sad. I have seen a few (very few) attempt to join forums but the response is often hostile - people denying the statements of the newcomer or saying "me to" when obviously their experience was much different, or saying "I would have, but ...." - all negating the experience of 'the old timer'. People want to be able to talk and share with people like themselves, people with the same experience.

I guess it is not a big deal. In another 20 years those who went through this pre-1975 will be gone anyway.

I think it's sad that older people don't have a place where they can go and meet others like themselves, especially if they can't do it here (I don't know whether they can or can't). Just as people are "...negating the experience of an 'old-timer'" so too will others seek to establish themselves on some kind of "trans-hierarchy." I think that being an "old-timer" and talking about coming out a young age in a time when many people weren't is something that others view as threatening, it's as if it needs a reply like ""I would have, but ...." to remain legitimate. It's funny because so many different people do that here. If you go through and read posts there are always replies which seem to not really address the original poster's question or comment but seem more to be a chance for the replier to state why they are or are not like that. I do it too sometimes I'm sure.

I think "old-timers" should be placed in the same place as young transitioners and the people with SRS should be placed in the same place as the non-op and non-SRS people and those who "pass" should be placed in the same place as those who "don't pass." All in a big metaphorical open field where the grass is green and the sun is shining. I'll listen to an "old-timer" tell stories all day and I'll respect their struggle. I'll hear a young transitioner's story about being thrown out of the house and dumpster diving to eat, I'll hear stories about someone who got beat up for presenting as their self in a small town and I'll respect those stories too.

But, for me, none of them had any more or less of a hard struggle. It's such an individual process, the whole-coming-out-and-dealing-with-it thing. As much as people want to believe that it's easier these days, I see examples all over Susan's and irl of people who, regardless of support level, just can't bring themselves to come out to loved ones and work and friends. It's such an incredibly hard thing to do and the risks are so great that I truly understand it when people wait or don't do it. You never know how it's going to end up in the end. We have the internet today which is TONS more than anyone had 25 years ago, but I think it can be even more isolating to people sometimes. They come on here and get so much support and love. People post pictures and get told how great they look and how "no one will know" then they go outside in their town and their experience in not the same as online. At least they have some level of support I guess.

I myself like hearing stories from older transitioners who transitioned when they were younger or in the 80's or 90's. "Squirrel Cage" and other autobiographies let us know about our history and I'm definitely one to recognize history. I just don't believe that one group "had it harder" than any other group or that any group deserves more or less something for transitioning.

We weave a beautiful tapestry together, warts and all Meghan

[tekla]

The absolute hardest part about teaching history is getting people to understand that the past is not just like the present in funny clothes.  The past was different, and people who went through that know of that difference in some ways.  It's all too easy to get locked into the prison of the present, and not really see how different things in many ways were.  I think it's even easier when you have the rather special set of circumstances you find today.  First, very little interaction between generations (generational stratification), and second, a constant montage of things put in front of us masquerading as the past that are not really the past.  Movies, TV and such while depicting the past, are always written from a present standpoint, one that may ascribe motives, reasons, values and outcomes to actors that were actually not part of the way persons acting in that age would have felt or paid attention to.

Add to that the fact that few of us have much contact with people outside of our continuum, like associates with like and pretty much their you have it.  We don't have the kind of cross-generational communication deal in a nuclear/post-nuclear family structure that you have in more traditional family structures.

[barbie]

According to Zen Buddhism,

Hostility comes from fear,
Fear comes from ignorance.

When we are angry with someone, we take it for granted that the solution for our anger lies with the other. If the other person acts and behaves the way I want to, then I do not have to be angry anymore. That is why we so easily say that someone else angers us. We think we can change our greed only by getting what we want.

We always think that our anger, ignorance and greed is being caused by the so called outside world, by the other. Thus we seek liberation from our suffering in the outside world, in the other, if need be in violence. In short, we think liberation is only possible if some conditions are fulfilled. If thus..., then I will be....

The Buddha saw that liberation and being happy is not only dependent on external facts. He found out that it is possible to cope with unpleasant things without suffering, without having to react to it with fighting or fleeing.

In Zen we consider ignorance or confusion as the main root of suffering. Therefore in Zen practice the development of wisdom and compassion is stressed. Wisdom and compassion are like the two wings of a bird: you need both to fly. Discontentment and violence do not disappear by taking away the momentary objects of our discontentment and violence. Fear does not dissolve if we take away that which we fear.

http://www.zeninstitute.org/en/aboutzen/philosophy/main.html

Barbie~~

[cynthialee]

Its not an acurate measure.
If I had not fallen into the clutches of a misinformed bigoted psychiatrist I would have transitioned at 21.
I got my head filled with a ton of garbage from that man and was incapable of transitioning because a man I trusted with all my heart told me I was perverted.
Yeah sure I formed a sexual perversion at age 9 and carried it around for a lifetime. I didn't have my first sexual fantasy until a few years later. But I didnt understand that the shrink was wrong until recently.
Hell I had to get past my ultra christian upbringing just to go see a shrink, then to have him 'confirm' my worst fears was too much I couldn't transition because I had no recourse. Transition would have sent me to my souls doom and mark me as a pervert for life.
So I am now 41 and just starting my transition. If I had goten good information and been accepted by the local medical comunity I would have had a vastly diferant life.

See what I mean when I say the catagories are illfiting constructs?