Gender appropriate activities, before and after...

[nonie]

I really, really want to build my own furniture.  I always have, I used to tip the couch over when I was a kid to try to see how it was made and I would inspect the dressers and shelves and watch This Old House and other various construction and woodworking tv shows with my mom, who studied to be a carpenter but got tendonitis in her elbows and couldn't do it anymore.

I don't think it has anything to do with gender - I like making my own clothes too, which meant learning to sew and knit, and I never felt that it was somehow off-limits for me to learn woodworking as a girl.  I dunno, somehow I always thought it was wild and crazy for me to learn to sew and knit.  I was proud of it because I thought it was a little odd for me (I thought odd for me as a liberated feminist, but really it was odd for me as a man), and though it was nothing to keep secret, when I told people I felt I was disclosing this intimate detail about myself,  yet no one was particularly shocked or impressed because those are girl things and they thought I was a girl.  But they did seem to think it was remarkable of me to talk about dovetailed or mitered joints and power tools - a sure sign of my strength and liberation as a woman.

As a man, woodworking will be kinda normal - maybe a bit archaic and somewhat interesting as a hobby, but not unusual or remarkable, while knitting and sewing will seem wild and crazy and feminizing.  This seems more in line with how I felt people should react to things I did, but at the same time, with my history as a feminist, I feel guilty for promoting these stereotypes within myself and using them even some tiny little bit to verify my gender.  Which I do, I somehow take it as further evidence in my vast collection of it.

Conversely, I hated cooking when I was presenting as a female - not because I wasn't interested in it or didn't enjoy doing it, but because no one was ever proud enough of me for being able to do it.  I had one friend I'd cook for all the time because she treated it as a special thing I was doing and not just something normal all girls should do.  Now that I am trying to dress and live as a male I really enjoy cooking, it feels like a special talent that will be seen as such.

I've read that we transsexuals tend to have more restrictive views on gender roles, so finding this to be somewhat true in myself (not in what I expect of others, mind you, only in what applies to me) seems to uphold that, but at the same time makes me feel like a lousy feminist :/

Anyone else have feelings like this?  Things you like to do that are appropriate for your assigned gender vs. ones that are appropriate for your true one?  Did you feel an indiscrepancy with how people reacted to your hobbies or behavior?  I know for MTFs the reactions against feminine activities is much stronger, but did working on cars or other traditionally male things make you feel sort of self-reliant and proud, like it should be a unique talent, instead of just feeling like an everyday thing like it supposedly should be for a man?

[Julie Marie]

WOW!  I can't believe what I just read.  Everything you mentioned I enjoy doing and some of those things I do regularly.  Since I live alone, of course I cook, but I find cooking more enjoyable than eating.  I confess, I watch the Food Network.  Don't tell anyone!

And woodworking?  You should see my shop.  I think you'd have some fun.  I have just about whatever you need to build just about anything.  My latest project is my biggest yet.  And it was built totally by a girl!

While I love woodworking I hate working alone and have yet to find anyone who enjoys this and can handle working with a TS.  Where do you live?  I'm moving!  We'll start a business.  "Transsexual Furniture"  Er, uh, maybe another name would be more appropriate.

Sewing is something I have dabbled in but I have a lot to learn.  In fact I was thinking about building a sewing center as my next project.  I'd be killing two birds with one stone.

While I have seriously been thinking of buying a sailboat, the one thing I don't want to do is get rid of my woodworking tools.  It's a conflict I just can't resolve.  A sailboat needs work all the time and those tools would come in very handy.  But where to keep them?  Sorry, I'm getting off topic.

Even though I work construction I too watch shows that deal with construction.  I designed my house and drew up the plans, back before Auto Cad was popular.  And I probably did 50% or more off the work building it.  It was one of the really happy times in my pre-out life.  It kept me so busy I lost a lot of weight.  I was down to 130 pounds.  Best weight loss plan I've ever seen!

A woodworking business has always been a consideration for me when I retire.  What do you say Mikko?  Are you in?

Julie

[HelenW]

Build your own boat, Julie, and make it big enough to hold your shop!

There!  Problem solved! 

Hugs & Smiles,
(needs to sharpen her jack plane)
helen

[DawnL]

At times, during my transition, I had gender restrictive views about some of my hobbies and
talents but I have since thrown them all out the window.  I like to cook, sew, shop, do housework
and other traditionally feminine things but I can also do carpentry, drywall, electrical which are
useful skills, male or female.  I can fix my car but I hate working on cars so I let someone else
do it.  The music is still viewed as a male bastion but I'm quite happy to help kick that idea in
the head.  I think you'll evolve out of these feelings; this sort of questioning is a normal part
of transition I think.  Do the things you like to do and don't attach any gender roles to any of
it.

Dawn

[Dennis]

Wow Julie, that is a beautiful entertainment unit. I love woodworking too, but have been too occupied with home reno's to start anything.

As to the original question, Mikko, it's only natural to enjoy something that serves others when they appreciate it. If people take your cooking for granted, it's pretty normal to not particularly enjoy it. It takes  a lot of work, skill, and creativity to do it well. It should be appreciated.

As for sewing, knitting and that sort of thing, I've never enjoyed it. I had great role models in my parents; neither sewed and both thought that taking things to a tailor was a much more efficient use of time. We also glued the hems on our pants in my house with Speed Sew. I even made curtains once with Speed Sew. I didn't have too many overly gendered role models in my house. My dad did the cooking, mum did the laundry. They both worked so they made use of who had the skills and the time available. Mum did the banking, which in those days had to be done on weekdays during banking hours, so Dad was home to do the cooking and Mum was out paying bills and doing the family finances (also picking things up from the tailor).

I don't think it would mess with my sense of myself as a man if I did like sewing. Although I remain of the view that it's a much more efficient use of your time to get someone else to do it.

Dennis

[Hazumu]

When I was still in denial, I used to admire people whose hobbies/interests took them across so-called gender lines. 

The bass player in the high school jazz ensemble was female, an accomplished musician, and I learned a lot about the interaction between the bass and the drums in the rhythm section.

I taught my sisters how to do the regular valve-adjustment-and-tune-up on their VWs.  They saw how much money doing the simple task themselves saved them, and continued to 'perform the ritual' themselves.

In military journalism school, we had a 'Coastie' JO1 who looked like Uncle Fester from The Addams Family and who would rip your copy to shreds -- "Sergeant Savage, that's CRAP!  NO!! That's CRAP-OLA!!!"  He knitted.  He'd make these beautiful baby clothes and donate them to the Fort Mead relief agency -- but only after passing the new pieces around the instructor room for all to admire.  (I did my FEAT3 assignment on him, so I saw all this.)

After self-acceptance--

They can have my SwissChamp when they pry it from my cold, dead fingers.  I used to wear it on my belt, but since I switched to knit pull-ups at work, it's in my purse.

I still make time every week to 'woodshed' on my drum kit.  And I always get a rush out of it.

My electro (hi, Lisa,) took a woodworking class.  The gender difference she found was that in the beginner class, the instructor made sure everyone had equal access to the tools and supplies they needed to complete their class-assigned project.  In intermediate, the instructor did nothing of the sort, and a testosterone-infused male-competitive atmosphere ensued. Lisa could do the work, but she was being bumped out of access to tools, workbenches, materials, etc.  I opened her eyes to what was going on, and she became much more assertive in getting access to what she needed.

I'm glad I went to Aviation Mechanic school for 3 of the 4 semesters.  There were 4 girls in our class of 20.  I could see generally no difference in their mechanic skills vs. the males in the class.  In fact, variance of skill/aptitude in the class as a whole obscured any tendencies that might be attributed to gender.  Anyway, I learned a LOT of good stuff I still find useful, and a good time was had by all.

In writing this, I decided that 'gender appropriate activity' is a kind of oxymoron.  I think there are activities.  I think there are differences in the ways the various genders approach them.  And I think there are general differences in what the genders may view as activities they want to do or not do.

(that gives me an idea for a new topic/poll...)

Karen

[cindianna_jones]

Mikko... I know exactly where you are coming from.  There were things that I tried to like.  There are times that I enjoy cooking, especially when it is for someone else.  But when alone, I don't cook at all.  For the most part I hate it.  I hate working on cars. But I do love to build furniture!  I do have a shop to die for.  Brick calls me "Norm Abrams with t*ts".  He can be very funny sometimes. 

Here are a couple of things I made last year.  I saw the blanket chest a few months ago and the cherry stiles and rails have turned a beautiful warm brown, so typical of what cherry is valued for.  The birdseye maple panels have remained bright white providing the contrast I intended.









Cindi

[Ricki]

Wow!  I am a girl after all, I have no mechanical abilities, my tool kit is a hammer, screwdirver and wrench? Dah!
Seriosuly i am not one that was ever mechanically inclined for building things of wood, fixing machinery, etc.  i'm worthless around the house pretty much!
I used to love yard work and even though i hate it now i still can build cool flower beds, landscape, etc.. I did put in a rock bed this year (yah okay i stole the rocks form the woods one trip at a time coming accross big falt rocks driving in the mountains i hauled them home 1 or 2 at a time and by end of summer i had enough to edge off one corner of the yard by the fence, pour in some dirt then redwood filler and whoola rock bed!  I like it!
Nothing grows in one large area of our yard -soil is waaay too rocky!
Sorry was rambing on here.. Umm lets see
Hate painting, like moving furniture around hate cleaning.
I can iron well and wash clothes well.  Cannot sew or knit although i wanted to learn how at some point years back no one to show me or share!
I admit it i like chick flicks and when in the mood love the teary eyed movies, Ghost makes me water at the eyes everytime i watch it!  (i cannot cry real well for some reason)
I used to love to wash my car but that phase passed many years ago??? hehe...  I think i got old and realized it was not worth it evry two days?
Mikko you're cooking more now? GREAT! welcome to manhood my friend!  I will share with you some good information that has to do with your quote!

Conversely, I hated cooking when I was presenting as a female - not because I wasn't interested in it or didn't enjoy doing it, but because no one was ever proud enough of me for being able to do it.  I had one friend I'd cook for all the time because she treated it as a special thing I was doing and not just something normal all girls should do.  Now that I am trying to dress and live as a male I really enjoy cooking, it feels like a special talent that will be seen as such.

First though i am not saying this to offend anyone who is truly a girl!
Fact is Restuarants and commercial kitchens were and are dominated by men, male chefs, male pastry chef's, Male Sous chef's, Male sauciers, Male bakers etc...My supporting evidence is from culinary school where classically trained chef's and students were mostly men, from early culinary ages when the culinary revolution took place!
Escoffier was the founder of french cooking and techniques and is standard reading in good culinary schools (i said good culinary schools) I had the book when i was 16 and still have it.  His recipes were professional / & professionally vague a rough list of items and his measurements were rudamentary pinches, slathers, strands, yards, blocks, etc.. to understand his book and recreate his recipes you had to be accomplished in the first place his recipes would call for items that in themselves were recipes or creations which it was assumed the reader (chef) knew how to do or prepare.  Deboning a quail or poultry piece, demiglace, Au bure`, forcemeats, mousses, molds, terrains, spice bouquets, a simple recipe would state bouqet of spice.  A home cook would say yah okay what does that mean what spices.  Escoffier assumed correctly that the advanced chef would know spices, moix poires, their uses and what went with what to accent and develope flavor, liquors and wines, reduction of sherry (this is not simply sherry reduced its garlic, shallots, black peppercorn, a bay leaf piece all slowly reduced with the wine then strained after there is all but a few ouces of the liquid left.  Flavorful poweferful essences (he called them liquids often)....It was years later in my career i actually understood his book and approach to culinary arts and more importantly how to even make some of his recipes! hehe
Sorry i am rambling on too much'
anyway a long time ago the woman was the fixture in the home as the cook, commercially it was always just a quiet secret that men ruled the commercial kitchens and they still do.  Yes there are quite accomplished female chefs out there but by comparison its still 70-30 i'd guess (i have not facts to support my guess, hehe...)
Being a woman in the kitchen i will add is hard the lifting of foods and supplies is continuous and often very heavy and cumbersome, stock pots and sauce skillets are heavy and require arm strength and dexterity, before commercialization everything was done by hand cleaning 300 pounds of carrots does not sound hard but after 50 lbs its a workout!  Piping 2,000 dollaps of mouse will lock up even a guys arm!
Whisking a sauce for 30 straight minutes is a workout!
Carving / cutting down 200-400 pounds of filet or ribeyes is not easy work!
Anyway blessed be the home cooks man or woman! 
My mother is an accomplished home cook but commercially would never be a chef.  This is not a retraction to her ability or skill its just not the skillsets she has required to do this work!
A culinarian also has to be a coach, a manager, a scheduler, a leader, a teacher, a moderator, one who closely follows the food and his staff, be a steward in knowing the foods, ordering them, storing them, maintaining them, costing them, financially understanding the mechanics of buying, preparing, and selling them, a skilled master of putting fires out and controlling kaos!  and so on.........
Oh my goodness i am soo sorry you guys i went on and on, started to feel like the older days when i taught some clases as side work in the evenings.  Well unless completely bored with this its good information to understand how things were and are!
Mikko cook yourself up a storm and yes as stated the whole concept of not just cooking the food but serving them and making nice is still something very admirable!  Shame on the people around you that did not look on this as a sheer gift!  My ex faince loved my cooking - still does and she loved the whole concept that i would do it and do it for her and share that or my gift with her! you can come cook for me any day! & I would anyday return the favor!
Ricki

[nonie]

Julie, I live in Columbus OH but will be moving back to Minnesota soon (I just read that we trangenders are protected against discrimination *by law* in my home state - why did I ever leave?) - I plan to travel like mad, I'll be in San Francisco in December and then who knows what, tell me where you are and I might swing by and build something with ya   I'll be getting my own place and I plan to buy no firniture at all, just furnish the whole place myself!

Dawn - I don't really think the problem here is gender *restrictive* views so much as expecting what I do to communicate certain things about me that it isn't.  Like the few times I put on eyeliner or makeup I wanted to be seen the way a genetic guy is when he goes that - sort of risky and interesting and gender-defiant - not like a normal girl conforming to a gender norm.  Does that make any sense?  I'm kind of seeing my transition as finally allowing people to react to me the way I keep thinking they should when it comes to my hobbies and what I do.  I have come to understand why I kept feeling the responses to what I did were incorrect:  Cooking, cleaning, sewing, and knitting felt like they were cross-gendered and therefore should have been seen as brave and unique and liberating the way a girl doing guy things is seen, but I kept feeling guilty because all I ended up doing was reinforcing people's gender expectations.  They'd go "You make clothes?  I thought you were a feminist, I guess feminists are just regular girls anyway."  It just felt like everything I did had the wrong reaction and like I was somehow serving the enemy.

Dennis - I was raised by just my mom and she is as feminist as you can get.  She had short hair and usually wore jeans and a button-down plaid shirt, though now that she's getting older she likes to wear ridiculous stuff like Zoobaz paired with Hawaiian shirts, cowboy boots, and wide-brimmed gardening hats.  As I said, she studied to be a carpenter.  She didn't sew, she cooked but mainly to save money not as something she enjoyed.  She seemed sad when I started dating boys and I always joked with friends that she wished I was a lesbian, like she was sad she'd ended up straight and wished better for her progeny.  So my seemingly sexist views on my activities aren't coming from her.  Maybe I even felt like I was rebelling when I picked up sewing and knitting   I love making stuff on my own, be it clothes, scarves, artwork, food, or furniture - I don't think there's anything un-manly about that, I think I just keep being upset that people see my creative endeavors and proof of my female-ness, not affirmations of my security in my manhood as I kinda see them.

Karen!  I love the mental image of your Uncle Fester army guy knitting baby clothes!  I found a webring of male knitters - I think I will join it later, but I haven't knitted in a while.  I put it down because my bf teases me if I do things that aren't manly now, but I do really like to do it, it suits my meticulous nature

Cindi - I love that end table, the contrast is so pretty.  My mom made a huuuuge toolbox kinda like your blanket box when I was little, with the same long hinge, it just reminded me of that.  Wonder where that box is...  Instead of staining it she had me and my brother paint it.  I think I'm gonna look for it next time I'm back home

Ricki - I'm afraid I still have to stick to the simple stuff   My brother thinks I have a natural aptitude for spices and seasonings but since I'm sysesthetic, it seems like the same thing to me as mixing colors and I have a lot of practice at that.  I dunno how far into it I'm gonna get - but I love making fresh bread and I stopped buying store bread a month ago.  Once I have my own place there will be no more boxed dinners, that's for sure.  Anyway, if we exchanged home-cooked meals yours would most definitely beat whatever I made.



Another gender expectation I thought of that doesn't work right for me - remembering birthdays and anniversaries and such.  I have never been good with dates and people would *always* get mad at me.  It seemed like I couldn't go a month without getting a call from someone saying "You didn't call me on Job Christmas, the anniversary of when I got my first job!  What the heck?!"  So for years I have been working on that, trying to put things in calendars and such...  But ever since I came out to my friends, when I call them on their birthdays or send them cards, they now go "Aw, it's so sweet that you remembered!  But you're gonna have to knock that off if you want to be a guy..."  I didn't realize there was a specific gender separation there at all, but if it means I can stop checking Outlook every morning to see if I'm forgetting someone, that's cool by me.  They know I like them anyway.

[Dennis]

Mikko, your mum sounds cool. Is she single?  >

Dennis

[nonie]

Mikko, your mum sounds cool. Is she single?  >

Dennis

Haha, yes she is   She comes with two boys (11 and 5), 3 cats, 2 insane occasional stalkers, and 2 or 3 broken down cars.  Hope you can handle it

[Steph]

I don't think that I've experienced these feelings/views Mikko.  Realistically I believe that the notion of gender appropriate activities is old school, pre WWII.  Since then and with the emergence of the feminist movement this no longer holds water.  Yes there are traditionalists from both camps who feel the females place is in the home performing those tasks associated with being a house wife, and the male is the bread winner, but no longer.  Yes the woman is still the only one who can give birth, but they can also perform most if not all tasks that males were normally expected to do equally well.  Therefore go crazy Mikko do what ever you want to do.

Steph

[nonie]

I don't think that I've experienced these feelings/views Mikko.  Realistically I believe that the notion of gender appropriate activities is old school, pre WWII.  Since then and with the emergence of the feminist movement this no longer holds water.  Yes there are traditionalists from both camps who feel the females place is in the home performing those tasks associated with being a house wife, and the male is the bread winner, but no longer.  Yes the woman is still the only one who can give birth, but they can also perform most if not all tasks that males were normally expected to do equally well.  Therefore go crazy Mikko do what ever you want to do.

Steph

I tried to clarify my meaning in my last post.  I'm not saying activites should be segregated by gender or that I feel like I'm allowed or not allowed to do cetrain things, I'm saying that they way people viewed what I did in relation to my gender presentation bothered me.  Because I am a feminist, I didn't like people taking what I do and using it as some kind of reaffirmation of my "place."  With my gender presentation being male now, the things I do will say something entirely different and much more accurate about what I think is gender appropriate - i.e. as a girl I felt I was reassuring people of the domestic place of women, but as a man my activities will be seen as much more unusual, and maybe contribute to breaking *down* the gender boundaries, and I like that.

[Dennis]

Yeah, it's funny. Before transition, nobody questioned my ability to cook. Post-transition, even people who knew me before assume I can't cook.

And I used to be a darn good cook, but I haven't had a stove for 2 years. In January, I'll see if it's like riding a bike and I can just jump right back into it.

Dennis

[Shana A]

Society imposes considerable pressures on everyone, male, female and transpersons, to conform to existing gender roles and stereotypes. I think it takes considerable inner strength to remain true to ourselves. If you want to build furniture, or cook, or whatever, just go for it! I let someone else build furniture, though, I'm not good with tools.

zythyra

[LostInTime]

It really ticks me off when people start rabbiting on about gender specific hobbies and that sort of thing.

In the past I have been told that I was not a "true" transsexual because:
I still enjoy paintball (just have to pad the bra a bit, chest shots will have you seeing stars)
I still enjoy shooting
I enjoy learning how to do things for myself when it comes to my car.  I can do the spark plugs, distributor cap, wires, oil change, and my brakes.
I still enjoy the martial arts

It is all BS.  You might as well say that because I work in a very male dominated career that I am not TS.

Transition is all about accepting ourselves for who we are and that means the entire package.  Plus what do attitudes like I have dealt with tell the rest of the world?  To the women who play paintball?  Or know how to work on their car?

Oh and Dennis, you are going to jump right into a stove?   

As for cooking, I passed that test at work by making stuffed shells.  The coworkers loved them. 

Soweiso, never let the narrow minds keep you from what you enjoy.

[Melissa]

Oh boy, I have done my fair share of "gender dominated" hobbies.  I did "female hobbies" as a guy and still enjoy "male hobbies" as a girl, so it's all BS.  However, I did notice that I was less afraid to practice my female with others knowing.  For instance, I knit.  I started that last year, but I was so afraid people would see me as a male that knits that I had stopped doing that (no time in private). Well, now that I'm FT, I have done it in public and I've had women come up to me who were also interested in knitting.  I don't work on my car so much anymore, because I don't want to get grease all over me.

As for cooking, it's something I have always enjoyed, but take even more pleasure in it now that I am living by myself.  I do like cooking for others too, but my food tastes very good and I enjoy eating it as well.

As for electronics/computers, those are hobbies I enjoyed as a male and still continue to use.  I have been working on troubleshooting my PS2 and that has been fun.  I have a big toolbox in my bedroom that I got when I was still working on cars.  I carry a leatherman tool (based out of Portland, OR ) in my purse with me.  It really comes in handy.  I have fun telling people that I have typically male hobbies as a female.  It always seems to surprise people.

Melissa

[Maud]

I can cook, clean, sew, blacksmith, woodwork, fix cars, computers, networks, do theoretical physics, go paintballing, perform CPR, figure skate, skateboard, rollerblade, climb trees, kick ass, ride a horse, camp, play violin, viola, keyboard, recorder, sing and dance.

The 20th century is a bygone era.

[Ricki]

I agree with Lost in time.......
I have hobbies that could easily be argued gender neutral or either gender could do, which is very true.
I'll say this knowing as much as i know though some sports or hobbies i think are deemed more male or for males is strictly do to physics or physical build, muscle mass, muscle tissue, strength, etc.
Why do the ladies have a golf tee off farther up than the men?
Supposedly men because of physique can generate more power in their swing than a woman nothing more nothing less..(all else is equal chipping, putting, etc)
I notice this in tennis (except for fans we all know Billy jean king proved her point on the court be she was a phenomenom!)...
in singles there is not a mixed singles match, professionally anyway (i know one high school around here actually has what this area would consider a girl player who could easily go pro she won the mens single titles at her high school, again a phenomenom!)  strength i belive not speed or agility here just strength.
That is why most pro women players are taught or learn two handed backhands and forehands for control and power.
I do not know about gender equal sports like swimming, track, etc?  Someone else who did these activities would know more than me?
I'll say this controversial statement and apologize ahead of time but.. That is one reason why as a rule women do struggle in the military service (I mean-IN CERTAIN MOS-specialties like infantry soldier, airborne, Ranger-Marine expeditionary units, seals, etc) Some guys as a rule struggle to begin with with 60-80 pound loads of gear and ammo, not withstanding forced marches of 8-10 miles and more...  Its a strength thing sheerly...
But I'll end by saying that i believe this is the norm there are phenomenons (sp?) in the female category that perform to a higher standard but not the norm...
hugs! Ricki

[nonie]

Ah, I don't mean to start some kind of men vs. women activites argument here.  I've tried to clarify what I meant multple times.  I meant to discuss people's PECEPTIONS, outside yourself.  You can say that there are no gender appropriate activities and that's fine, and *we* know it's totally true, but that doesn't mean people aren't going to judge you a certain way because of those hobbies and activities - they communicate something about your personality (anyone who goes whitewater rafting, male or female, must be an adventurous thrillseeking type, etc.) and a lot of people still *do* have very strong gender biases.  Like for me - being seen as a girl who knitted was nothing out of the ordinary, but being a man who knits has an *entirely*different kind of reaction, which I kind of like better.

Maybe I should change the title and first post, since I obviously didn't explain what I meant very well, sorry about that :/