Could someone explain what being an Androgyne means please?

[rejennyrated]

Title says it all really.

I am not trying to be funny or deliberately stupid here. I really don't know what an Androgyne is and I would like to understand.

If anyone could enlighten me in words simple enough for my addled old brain to comprehend I would be eternally grateful.

For example, and I sincerly apologise if any of these questions are overly personal or just plain dumb.

Like I say I am really trying to grasp the concept: Are Androgynes generally originally female bodied or male bodied - or does that terminolgy simply not apply? Do they modify their sexual characteristics or is it a state of mind thing? Is it a mutually exclusive thing to someone being trans or are some transpeople also Androgynes... etc.

Thanks

Jenny

[Osiris]

Androgyny is all about gender identity. Your sex could be male or female but you could easily identify as androgyne. Some androgyne people will pursue transition as they're more comfortable being seen as the opposite gender or want certain physical aspects of that gender. One could be an ftm or mtf androgyne, and several are.

You might find this article in our wiki helpful- https://www.susans.org/wiki/Androgyne

[Pica Pica]

Androgynes are people who feel they are not male or female.

Some think they are both, sometimes with one in ascendent and sometimes the other. Some feel they are both in a blend. Some feel they are neither, some feel they are akin to a young child before they have learnt their gender, some feel that they are their own gender, some feel they are no gender at all.

So a pretty disparate bunch.

It starts as a state of mind thing but often includes elements of body disphoria and changes etc..There is a tendency to wanting to look more androgynous, this can go from small items of
clothing to full on hormones and surgery.Quite a few seem to approach this area with a playful spirit and an urge for discovery. The importance of this is pretty varied depending on the androgyne. Modifying sexual characteristics does happen, especially to the kind of androgyne who wants to obliterate gender.

They tend to be male or female bodied but not exclusively, some trans are androgyne, we often have people who feel androgynes in a male body and wish to be androgynes in a female body.

And sometimes androgyne is a dump bin for anyone not find a place to fit them on the other parts of the site.

[tekla]

Well, the way we use it around here, and we're pretty much inventing it as we go, is that we're not either, but much more both.  Not one, or the other (perhaps we just can't make up our tiny little minds, still) but a whole lot of both.

You know when I get out my Makitia Powerdriver, circular saw, and pneumatic nail gun and build a riser - hey that that' the guy side of me.  When I get out the laser level to make sure the skirts on the riser are EXACTLY level, that's tekla.

When I climb up 40 feet in the air to make sure stuff is hung right (with minimal safety equipment) well that's the stupid guy side, when I dust off the speakers on the way down, and give them a quick wipe with ArmorAll, so they look all shiny and pretty, that's tekla.

But I like Pica²'s answer better.

[rejennyrated]

Thank you for that clear explanation Osiris, Tekla and Pica-Pica

I think I find myself slighty struggling with this concept because although I certainly don't identify that way a lot of what the definition, at least in the wiki, describes are things which I just consider as normal... for example encompassing a blend of gender attributes.

Personally, although I feel my balance is on the female side I do not exist, nor would I wish to exist, at the extreme poles of gender and like my many cisgendered friends I am very comfortable with being a bit of a mixture whilst being clear in my own mind that the overall composite balance is female.

I guess that's what makes me slightly at odds with a lot of my fellow travellers on the gender road. I don't feel the need to be too tightly defined or constrained by definitions. So maybe deep down there's a bit of an androgyne in me trying to escape.

I can do make-up when needed, and car maintenance when needed with equal comfort. I simply don't really feel the need to be gender polarised to that extent, but ironically I find that it is important to start from a position which is at least a toe over the line into the female territory. Well - ok maybe 75% / 25% or something...

From reading your description it is also very clear to me that my mother was a classic Androgyne. Seems like I had no chance!

[Sevan]

I personally think that androgyn is a great number of things to a great number of people! It can be a stopping point for some who are either on their way to full transition (MtFs or FtMs) or it's just where a person feels they fit.

[Pica Pica]

I think on the whole it is a pretty unradical concept, we all share in each other's common humanity and all that and most people borrow attributes from either side of the (I think mostly perceived) gender divide.

I think the difference is one of identification, I think there is a subtle difference in saying 'I am a woman, but I have my manly side' and 'I am not actually a woman at all'... But that's when stuff gets slippery.

[Constance]

Osiris, Tekla, and Pica Pica pretty much nailed it.

I'm biologically and anatomically male. The disphoria I experience is that I don't feel quite comfortable in my male body. That said, I feel that a female body wouldn't be quite the right answer, either.

I call myself androgyne because that word combines both main aspects: male (andro) and female (gyne). I prefer gender fluid, as that phrase (to me) doesn't inadvertently reinforce the binary the way andro-gyne does (IMO).

[rejennyrated]

But that's when stuff gets slippery.

Tricky subject this gender thing. Just when you think you know the rules someone goes and moves the boundaries

I think I begin to grasp this, if you are saying that it is really about self definition.

[Dorothy]

It means a lot of things for different peeps but according to Susan's Place definition of androgyne as described here:



https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,22474.0.html

I have shut off the public Androgyne forums for the next two days...

These are the only definitions that apply to the Androgyne community, at least on this web site.

Androgyne: An androgynous person
Androgynous: Being neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine, as in dress, appearance, or behavior.

If you don't like the definitions go start your own site. There's a delete account option in your profile. Any other defintions do not apply. Any arguing about these definitions will result in that persons ability to post on this site being removed. This is exactly why I went through the effort to come up with community terms in the first place, I just didn't want to have to be so blunt about it. So sorry it had to come to this, but I am tired of constant attempts to redefine Androgyne as transgender lite or transsexual lite. They are each different terms covering different conditions.

A Transsexual can be Andyogynous, but that doesn't make them not a transsexual.
A Crossdresser also can be Androgynous, but that again doesn't make them not a crossdresser.

Hell, I dressed Androgynously for years, though that has changed in the past few months.

[tekla]

Yeah, there are all sorts of points in the spectrum that is not right to left, this to that, but an entire sphere with all sorts of points in it.

I work with a GG, totally fem, except when she puts that tool belt on, and I've seen her hanging upside down by her knees on the top rung of a major stage (50-60 feet in the air) working with wrenches and drivers.  Far more macho than almost 90% of the guys I work with, which would make her more macho than 99.99999999% more macho than most of the guys who have ever lived. Yet, when she gets down, its back to all girl.

Or, what was Michael Jackson when he did Thriller?  Was that a boy dancing, or a girl, or was he (in the words of Bill Graham talking about Otis Redding) moving like a panther in heat?  He only went out and broke every rule, and in the process created something brilliant beyond compare.

When Amelia Earhart did what she did, was she a boy, a girl, or something far beyond both?  Was she - as I think she was - just an aviator?

I don't even use a lot of the fem words.  Is Merle Streep an 'actress' or just a master at acting, an actor?


I think on the whole it is a pretty unradical concept, we all share in each other's common humanity and all that and most people borrow attributes from either side of the (I think mostly perceived) gender divide.
Whatever you were asking me in that other thread there Pica, don't worry, you've made it.  That is one awesome thought and a beautiful sentence.  Thank you.

[Constance]

I think I begin to grasp this, if you are saying that it is really about self definition.

Self Definition? I'm not entirely sure about this. These words in this language are the only tools by which I can describe how I perceive myself. So, I guess that would count as it being self definition.

[anne_indy]

This is an interesting question. Several years ago, I was working with a therapist who suggested that I try to live an androgynous life style. For me that didn't make sense, because if I were going to live a little bit female, why would I not want to live completely female. I think that he wasn't comfortable with the idea of total transition and was trying to work out a compromise that fell within his comfort bounds, and one that allowed me some flexibility in my expression.

[Nicky]

For me it is about not feeling male or female. I don't have a male side or a female side. Definitly I am feminin in presentation and probably androgynous in behviour but that is just how I act and it does not define me internaly.

I don't know what it would feel like to feel like I was a woman, or a man. They are alien concepts. Nobody can describe what a man or woman is, but they know it when they are one. I feel uncomfortable being described as such. Yet I feel strongly gendered. I have a gender, it is on level with male and female. Language can't really describe it. I think it goes beyond self definition, it just is.

[Shana A]

Showing up late to the discussion. Here is what androgyne is for me.

I transitioned M2F in 1993, lived full time for over a year, re-transitioned, although not back to male. I came to a realization that I'm not truly either of the binary genders. For me gender is a continuum; I feel myself to be more on the female spectrum than male. I really don't have a word to describe my identity, the word androgyne is a convenient word to find others of similar experience and feelings.

Z

[Eva Marie]

I have a male body, but i'm genderfluid in that I switch between feeling male and female. Also, my thought patterns exhibit a female tendency. So i'm a guy that doesn't exactly click with my male friends, and tends to identify with females, but not entirely. Such a conundrum

Also, I would feel exactly the same with a female body as with a male body, so transitioning would not work for me. I have a body, it works well enough, and i'm satisfied with it.

The insights that I have living as a male with a side of female thinking allows me to transition both the male and female worlds, and also allows me to have gaffes on both sides as well. When I make a gaffe, it reminds me that i'm not exactly a citizen of the binary world.

It's tough living in two worlds sometimes 

[rejennyrated]

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to what I found to be a fascinating conversation.

I'm rapidly coming to the surprising conclusion (for me at least) that I too could easily fit within the andogyne definition, at least in psychological terms, if I chose to do so, but for reasons I can't really explain I prefer to stick with the female label, allbeit one with some andro leanings.

But I am grateful to have expanded my understanding.

[clare aston]

Nothng very technical for me - i had just thought for a long time that i really felt much more comfortable with female ways of doing things - and being.
Probably sounds a little silly, but experimenting with female style since i was a kid seems to have led tortuously, but, in the end, naturally, to an acceptance of my femme self.
Its all become about the freedom to be completely who i am - and the joy that flows from knowing thats ok!

clare x