What Kind Of Churches Were You Asked To Leave

[Tiffany2]

  This question is just for my private study I am doing in reference to church size and type of congregation. It's not meant to belittle any church or people.

  I have noticed that the smaller "country style" and smaller "spirit filled" churches have been closing down as the larger more modern chruches have been on the rise.

  I have also noticed that Christians seem to be far quicker to criticize and reject people than, say 20-30 years ago. In many cases they seem more arogant and know-it-all and if you don't measure up to their standards you're lost and going to hell.

  I understand many still love their neighbor and try to do good and I would never want to lump them all together. Even though sometimes I feel they do that to us.

  What kind of churches have you been excommunicated from or asked to leave?

  Was it a small spirit-filled one?
  Was it a small mainstream?
  Was it a large mainstream?
  How big was the congregation?
  What financial class? Rich? Middle-class?
  Were services following a program or as the spirit leads?
  Was the preacher seminary taught or just an old-timer taught by the spirit?

  I'm just trying to get an idea of who is more apt to cast out transgenders and who may be more open to the aspects of love, grace and forgiveness. I realize this will in no way be totally acurate but it is a starting point for my personal study.

  Any information would be appreciated.

  Tiffany

 
Posted on: November 05, 2006, 05:05:11 AM  I do hope this question doesn't break any rules. That is not my intent either.

[Steph]

  ...<snip>

  I have also noticed that Christians seem to be far quicker to criticize and reject people than, say 20-30 years ago. In many cases they seem more arogant and know-it-all and if you don't measure up to their standards you're lost and going to hell.

<snip>...

Although I'm not religious it does sound as though you are generalizing a little, maybe...

Steph

[cindianna_jones]

Yes, I was excommunicated from a Christian faith.  And when that happened another brought me in with open arms.  From their warm acceptance, I started to rebuild my life.  I no longer am with them since I moved.  But I will be the first to say that there are many loving people in this world.

There are more wonderful people than snobs.  It's just hard to get past the few idiots that we inevitably run into due to the nature of our lives. 

Cindi

[Melissa]

Well, I was asked to leave a unity church, but I have a feeling that if I spoke to the minister about going back, it wouldn't be a problem at this point.

Melissa

[Ricki]

None but that is only because i never went into one dressed.  My mother still attends our protestant church down the street.  I stopped the "worshipping with others aspect" after high school.  For various reasons but i think my issues are definately between me and God and me bearing my self and my soul in a church full of non progressive towns-people would only spurr gossiping and piss my mother off and/or embarrass her to all but death......
Funny enough though when i sought counselling years -YEARS back the protestant pastor was not much for information or advice, I went to two seperate catholic priests and they were not much help either they basically said i would be condemned if i broke any vows or laws of God or the church.
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Witch of Sadness]

Dear Tiffany2,

I was in the LDS church from birth on and was excluded there twice. The first time was because of my father, about I would like to say nothing here; and the second because of the ts. The LDS is, as  American and German religion scientists say, not a church but a destructive cult. A religion with different influences (Jewish, Masonic, Pagan, Christian and a little Zaratustra).
I still remind me what it was like at that time!
I went in Lübeck, into the office of my bishop and wanted only to inform him that I was transsexual and what I wanted to do. Without saying a word he gripped into a drawer of his desk, something wrote on a sheet of paper and asked me to sign the paper. There I read that I wanted to leave the LDS "by my own will"! But I didn't want this! I wanted to live further as a woman in the LDS.
But they didn't let me!
They put me under pressure so that I get "normal" again. And when they noticed that I won't do this, they began to exert pressure on my wife and my children. And they won with that!
I  was not allowed to see my children any more and it was forbidden to go to the LDS. I thought of suicide and my therapist wouldn't be been, I would be dead now!
I went to other churches and experienced that I was considered everywhere because of either the TS or my identity as a dyke. With the traditional woman picture in these churches I could or didn't want to identify me (I consider me an woman warrior).
About different experiences I came to Wiccan, a Pagan religion with admiration of the goddess. I feel well there; because there aren't any fear making rules.
By my private research I learned that they accepted in the old matriarchal cultures homosexuality and tg. It gives reports of men who castrated themselves to the honor of the goddess, put woman clothes on and served as a priestess of the goddess.
I have understood in the meantime that it isn't important whether somebody believed in Jahwe or the goddess, God or Allah. As long as it is to find humanity and charity in the religions.


WoS

[tinkerbell]

I was raised in a very catholic household, I went to catholic schools from elementary to highschool, I was baptized catholic, I did my first communion when I was ten years old, and I had my confirmation rites when I was thirteen.  I have only gone to catholic churches, before, during, and after my transition, and I have never been asked to leave eventhough they knew about my transsexualism.


tinkerbell

[cindianna_jones]

That's what I've admired about Catholocism in recent years.  I know devout members who disagree with the Pope from time to time. Yet they remain faithful.  I think this is healthy.  Some of the most charitable people in my most difficult times were my friends in the Catholic faith.  They reached out to help me when I had no one else to turn to.  For those that have read my book, my closest allies were Mike and his wife Cindy.  What a treasure they were. They stuck it out with me through it all and were there for me later on in my most distraught hour of need.

WOS, I'm sad to say that my experience was difficult with the LDS faith as well. They held on with all their might with one hand and with the other buffeted me, cast me out, and cut me off.  The pull and tug of censorship rent my inner soul to pieces.  And for many years afterwards, they had the gaul to return to my home attempting to get me to come back in humility and shame.

It's little wonder, we reach the depths of desperation and so often yield to suicidal thoughts and action.

For those of you who just starting on your path, take heart.  There is a spiritual home for you somewhere.  Do not dispair.  You will find it if you look. Christ did teach that the church was for everyone.  If we were perfect, there would be no need.

Cindi

[Julie Marie]

I was baptized and raised Roman Catholic.  Went to a Catholic grade school and mass every Sunday.  The priest's sermon consisted mostly of begging for money.  Later I saw them driving in a new Cadillac.  I was taught by the Jesuits in high school and college.  I went away for high school and went to mass every day.  Even with all that I never really got much out of it besides feeling guilty.  I left the church in my early 20's. 

My mother and one sister joined a religious group and tried to get me to join.  When I said not interested they drifted away.  A couple of other sisters joined.  One left almost right away, the other stayed for many years.  I'm close to the one who left early, not because of that but because we think alike.  But to this day my mother and two of my sisters pretty much ignore me.  Last Christmas, for the first time in my life, I was not invited to the Christmas family dinner.  My ex was though. 

Recently, when the gay marriage issue was big news, I passed by a Lutheran church.  The sign out front said, "Man and Woman.  GOD made it that way!"  They were preaching hatred and intolerance.  I shook my head in disbelief. 

I've never found much good in religious organizations.  I know there are good ones out there.  I just don't know which ones they are.  But the Buddhist way of life has sparked my interest lately.  I doubt they would throw me out.

Julie

[Jessica]

I don't know, I'd say that they are far less likely to criticize and reject people than they were in:

First Crusade 1095–1099
Second Crusade 1145–1149
Fifth Crusade 1217–1221
Sixth Crusade 1228–1229
Seventh Crusade 1248–1254
Eighth Crusade 1270
Ninth Crusade 1271–1272
and in 1692 with the Salem Witch Trials

I suppose I'm just glad they aren't still killing people because they are different.

My view on it is this.  We have the right to openly discuss and protest views that we do not agree with in the U.S.  So do they, it's one of the rights in the U.S. that I would prefer wasn't taken away.  Secondly, we have a right to say who we let into our homes, so do they.  I don't want to see that right taken away either, as long as they are not publicly funded.

If they don't want me there because of my views, my beliefs, or my actions, that is their right just as it is my right to determine who I want to hang out with at my house.

Look at it this way.  If you and your friends all got together and decided to build a party house, and you met all of the city and state ordanances.  You all pitched in the money to get it done and did not get any money from the state, wouldn't you and your friends want the right to say who could come to your party every sunday?

Forget doctorine, yes, I know, Christian's are supposed to be about love and acceptance, I think many people know better though.  The fundamental issue is, who do you want at your private party every sunday.  Personally, I don't want to go to a party where I am not wanted.  Furthermore, if my friends and I are throwing the party at a house we are paying for, and we're paying for the party, we should have every right to say who can come and who can't.

I understand churches SHOULD be about acceptance and love, after all, that is what they are preaching.  But, as we are all very aware, talk and actions are two very different things.  Some will accept you and some won't.  Some hold their actions true to their word, others are just talk.  You shouldn't want to go to a church where their actions do not match their words.  What I am arguing is their fundamental right to say, "you can't be here because we disagree with your actions and beliefs."  While it may sound messed up that I am actually arguing for them, if you take away their right to say "you can't be here" your own rights are in danger because they are a private organization.

As unforunate as it sounds, I am arguing that they have a right to ask you to leave, even though it goes against all of Christian Doctorine that they are preaching.  It just makes them very hypocritical.

Jessica

[Tiffany2]

  I am so sorry for the misunderstanding. I think I did post that I realize many do love.
  My question wasn't really in reference to the constitution or my or their rights. Surely I already know that.
  My question was in reference to spiritual vs carnal doctrines, teachings, ordinations, church size and economic class.
  That was for my private study of things that I wonder about.
  I fully realize that we have the right to invite whom we will and reject whom we will. That is just part of what makes freedom to be cherished.
  I also realize hatred has caused many to suffer more than many of us. As a matter of fact, sometimes I am ashamed of myself when I think about whether I could go through what others did without denying my faith.
  All in all, those are not the issues. I am thankful for the Christians out there that love the Lord and their neighbor as themselves in deed as well as word.
  But; those issues were not the question.
  I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

  Tiffany

[pennyjane]

hi tiffany.  when i transitioned i was asked to leave my chruch.  i'd been a long time member, contributer and parishoner of the salvation army church in bloomington, in.  i worked for the chruch at that time and was fired from my job as well.  our church was rather small, a congregation of maybe...50, with sunday services attracting 25-30 of them.  the salvation army is very wesleyan in doctrine, kind of old school...but devout and truly interested in doing God's work.

it hurt me very badly when i was asked to leave, but i too found a new chruch home.  God blessed me with forgiveness and understanding for how the old church arrived at their decision to ask me to leave.  a couple of years later i was invited back but i was already in love with my new chruch so i stayed.  i'm very glad to be on good terms now with the old church though.

i agree too with some of the earlier comments about things not being worse then they used to be, in fact...viserally i think things are far better then twenty or thirty years ago.  the societal move towards secularism in the last half of the 20th century had caused many chruches to re-examine their own reasons for seeing that happen and have decided they really needed to update themselves.  of course some have just entrenced themselves deeper and those for the most part are the ones that seem to be dying out.  change comes with struggle and defeat after defeat but we keep slogging along towards the light of God's love for us all.

i am so pleased to hear the stories of the catholics.  my best girlfriend is catholic and had been away from the chruch for many years.  i tried for a long, long time to get her to go back.  she was convinced that her chruch would fall apart if she came in.  it was about a year into her transition that her mother, a regular church goer, fell ill and couldn't get herself to mass anymore.  so my girlfriend found herself in a position of having to drive her the twenty miles to her chruch and wait outside, or go in and see......she decided to go in finally and has been shocked that nothing bad at all happened.  her mother even started introducing her as "my daughter".

the catholics may have a loud bark, but i'm seeing more and more that their bite comes closer to a kiss.  God less them and us with...

[Jeannette]

I haven't been kicked out of any church but if you are, find a church where you are welcome. Don't hang out with phonies. Fundies will tell you they love the "sinner" (but hate the "sin") anything to control you and to get your money, and as soon as they find something to criticise, then they don't want you. Go someplace where you are accepted for who you are. You don't need these hypocrites.

[tekla]

I was raised Catholic, and went to Catholic School through grade 12.  So most of that does not pertain or matter.

Was it a small spirit-filled one?
DNA - Thought there is a small group of Catholics who attempt this, they are called, "Charismatics" by themselves, and "Protestant Catholics" by those who do not agree, they are not in control and no one takes them very seriously, matter of fact, the entire idea that you could have a personal relationship with your Lord and Savior treads pretty close to blasphemy in standard doctrine.

Was it a small mainstream?
Was it a large mainstream?
Considering its the largest branch of Christianity worldwide as well as the oldest Christian tradition, I guess it's mainstream, but churches and parishes range from very small to huge.

How big was the congregation?
Depends.

What financial class? Rich? Middle-class?
At my Catholic high school in Sonoma County California I went to school with people whose fathers were janitors and people whose last names (family names) are on some of the biggest wine labels in the US.  It is the church of St. Francis of Assisi and Mother Theresa, and also the church of just about every Mafia Don and the Kennedy family.

Were services following a program or as the spirit leads?
The Catholic Mass is about the longest running extant ritual in the Western World.

Was the preacher seminary taught or just an old-timer taught by the spirit?
The Catholic clergy is about the oldest class of professionals in the West. Most of the priests that taught me had Masters Degrees from major universities, as well as their seminary training. 

And they never kicked me out, I left pretty much on my own accord, largely due to my college work in physics.  Still, one of my oldest friends is a priest and we get together about once a month or so. 

While I was still in, at least in the margins, I worried about the crossdressing, but I never had anyone tell me its a sin.  And, even if it lead to self pleasure it still was not a big deal, as that could never be a mortal sin (Catholics being very legalistic have two classes of sin, just as the law has two classes of crime) for it could not meet the first criteria of a mortal sin:
For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must exist at the same time.
1. It must be of a grave matter;
2. It must be committed with full knowledge that it is a mortal sin;
3. It must be committed with full consent.

Any reference to Crossdressing is from the Old Testament, which we never read and were not even encouraged to read.  My friends tells me that god cares about what is in my heart and not what is on my back, matter of fact, as opposed to the Sunday Going To Meeting look that lots of Protestant churches have, Catholic mass is pretty casual dress deal.

As of the current time the Church has taken no stance on TS, except where it might lead to sex or the breakup of a marriage.  And don't look for one soon, the Catholic Church moves at at a pace that makes glaciers look like the Indy 500.  There are opinions about it, but no official stance as of this time.  I know several people who transistioned while in the Church and were never asked to leave.