TrinityYes for some reason , probably because of the words that say in the bible, "there is only one god" is how they have problems trying to make the trinity into one god. The old testament doesnt teach the trinity. The new testament doesnt refer to the trinity, rather the parts are referred throughout, except in 2 major John paragraphs. The holy spirit is never clearly written as a being with the God Father, and Son.
Jewish belief in the holy spirit Holy Spirit is a Hebrew figure of speech, the ruah hakodesh ("holy spirit"). In Jewish usage, however, this concept was never identified with a separate person, but with a Divine power which could fill men, as, for instance, the prophets
Yes I have read from sites such as
http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-development-old-testament.htm which try to show how the new testament was wrongly interpreted by the Jewish people. And some of these arguements are quite unsubstantiated. And the fact is, when you read the New testament, God and son of god are quite common. And Spirit of god are also common. Yet in the Old testament it is only small hints of possible referrences, which christian writers twist and turn to trying to make the new testament and the old testament agree. Something like this should be clear, direct, and in the 10 commandments, not all puzzled up and cryptic.
Jewish view on Messiah vs Yeshua (Jesus)The Jewish people now days do not believe Yeshua (Jesus) of Nazareth was the Messiah, because he did not do as the bible had prophecized according to them.
"As for Jesus of Nazareth, who claimed to be the Anointed One and was killed by the court, Daniel had already prophecied about him, thus: "And the children of your people's rebels shall raise themselves to set up prophecy and will stumble." (Ibid. 14) Can there be a bigger stumbling block than this? All the Prophets said that the Anointed One saves Israel and rescues them, gathers their strayed ones and strengthens their mitzvot whereas this one caused the loss of Israel by sword, and to scatter their remnant and humiliate them, and to change the Torah and to cause most of the world to erroneously worship a god besides the Lord. But the human mind has no power to reach the thoughts of the Creator, for His thoughts and ways are unlike ours. All these matters of Yeshua of Nazareth and of the Ishmaelite who stood up after him (Muhammad) are only intended to pave the way for the Anointed King, and to mend the entire world to worship God together, thus: "For then I shall turn a clear tongue to the nations to call all in the Name of the Lord and to worship him with one shoulder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_MessiahJohn main source of Jesus/God relationship Many of the most profound christian theological passages come from John (which if he was the apostle, was one of the 3 pillars of the church along with Peter and James). And John who wrote the last Gospel (Gr Euaggelion-Good News) writen around d. 90, (and wrote Revelations when exiled by Romans to the island of Patmos) many believe to supplement the other Synaptic Gospels- Gospels that were heavily dependant and related on each other by using the same words at times, same order, and same relationships, probably influenced by the same source; Gospel of Mark d. late60-early70 (Mark, Peter's Interpreter who heard what Peter had said, then wrote it down later), Gospel of Matthew d60-100 (tax collector who became an apostle) , Gospel of Luke d50-100 (written by the Luke (a doctor) the companion of Paul who also probably wrote the Acts).
Fifth Gospel Debate-Thomas and the male/femaleA few add a fifth gospel, Gospel of Thomas , which I fully enjoy. It has a very profound passage which talks about men and women. 114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females do not deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven." Which is absolutely the most problematic verse for orthodox christians to accept the book as Gospel, although the rest of the gospel is related to the other four.
Only One God"And God spake all these words, saying I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; "Exodus 20:1-5
The famous words that added Jesus to the GodsJohn 1 - 5 As soon as John wrote those famous words "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." john 1:1 - 5
Then Paul wrote in Colossians 1:12 - "Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." John 3:16-21
"Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" John 8:57-58
Books of JohnWritten by John, which doesnt identify himself in the book, but many believe is possibly John the Apostle who wrote also Revelations and probably I John. Who lived in Ephesus (where his reputed grave is), and in Ephesus John lived with and cared for Mary, the mother of Jesus. Paul used Ephesus as a base for his work. Which you can see on the map. You can also the Island of Patmos just off shore of Ephesus a few islands away, where he was exiled and wrote the book of Revelations.
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/asia_minor_p20.jpgQuoteit takes to be chistian is to believe in God, Jesus, and Holy spirit in some manner
Lets take the Holy Spirit
Pentecostalism named for the event of Pentecost, the coming of the Holy Spirit when Jesus' disciples were gathered in Jerusalem. They also believe that, once received, the Holy Spirit is God working through the recipient to perform the gifts of the Spirit. These gifts are portrayed in 1 Corinthians chapter 12.The Pentecostal movement places special emphasis on the work of the Holy Spirit, and especially on the gifts mentioned above, believing that they are still given today. Pentecostalism holds that the 'Baptism with the Holy Spirit' is distinct from the salvific born again experience, as a usually distinct experience in which the Spirit's power is received by the Christian in a new way, with the result that the Christian can now be more readily used to do signs, miracles, and wonders for the sake of evangelism or for ministry within the church.
Many Pentecostals also believe that the normative evidence of this infilling (baptism) of the Holy Spirit is the ability to speak in other tongues
Roman CatholicismNo one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God." Now God's Spirit, who reveals God, makes known to us Christ, his Word, his living Utterance, but the Spirit does not speak of himself. The Spirit who "has spoken through the prophets" makes us hear the Father's Word, but we do not hear the Spirit himself. We know him only in the movement by which he reveals the Word to us and disposes us to welcome him in faith. The Spirit of truth who "unveils" Christ to us "will not speak on his own." Such properly divine self-effacement explains why "the world cannot receive [him], because it neither sees him nor knows him," while those who believe in Christ know the Spirit because he dwells with them."
Eastern Orthodoxy proclaims that the Father is the eternal source of the Godhead, from Whom is begotten the Son eternally and also from Whom the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally. Note that unlike the Catholic Church and western Christianity in general, the Orthodox Church does not espouse the use of the Filioque in describing the procession of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is believed to eternally proceed from the Father, not from the Father and the Son.
Catholic reply to old testament lack of holy spirit representation and early church lack of trinityThe Old Testament clearly does not envisage God's spirit as a person . . . God's spirit is simply God's power. If it is sometimes represented as being distinct from God, it is because the breath of Yahweh acts exteriorly. ... The majority of New Testament texts reveal God's spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God.
Measuring stickThe only measuring stick I have to measure is the doctrine of the new testament (for christian) and old testament (jew and christian). Everything else is just elaborations of what is contained in these canons. The Nicene creed was created since there was variations in the interpretation of the reality of god. I dont agree with the abolishment of non nicene creed accepted christians such as Arius (even though he did not agree with the majority of the other priests), Gnostic, and christian jews were not present at the council. I dont agree with the illegality of christian to jew conversions resulting. I dont agree with the setting up of the churches throughout the empire as a way to indirectly worship the empire through his main religions leader partner such as the Popes. I guess all empires do such things however, and just is a reality of war, empires, and religion even outside of christianity.
The thought of not including Restoration type christian denominations as christians is quite absurd, but something I have heard before.
Constantine and his gathering to form the Nicene CreedThe Nicene Creed is not part of the New Testament. It is not written by any apostle, rather priest and leaders written in the 4rth century. The trinity written in the creed, is and has never been written in the bible. The relationships of God, Son, and Holy Spirit are referred in different ways in the bible, but the 3 relationship to each other as gods isnt written like it is not written with the clarity as it is in the creed. Gaius Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus (aka Emperor Constantine I) (who had inherited Britian, spain, germany, and Gaul from his father, and fought the Goths lead by Licinius in 324 where he flew the standard of Labarum. Uniting from the broken empire that had a tetrarchy. And became sole emperor of the entire roman empire. He moved Rome to the city of Byzantium (Istanbul,Constantinople). He then set in laws to outlaw conversion of christians to jews. He banished christians sects that did not follow the standard set in his arranged councils. He approved the creation of serfdoms (followers of lords) to establish the empire. He was very much like all the emperors of the world (Alexander-spread Greek culture and religion to the middle east; Genghis Khan-abolishment of caliphate of Islam; all the Dynasties of China using Buddhism ,Confucianism, and Taoism. ; Emperors and Shoguns of Japan using Shinto and conflicts with christianity. They all either abolish, or use religions to their purposes. Constantine was no different, abolishing the pagan religions, and different christian sects, and being baptized only at near death.
One thought of unifying all the christian churches is something common starting with the Nicene Council, on down to todays united christian type churches, but in reality they always exclude churches that just dont quite fit, and call them non christian. Thats fine, but isnt reality.
Pagan as being more tolerant?QuoteThe pagan religions have often stood to a greater tolerance in past when it was ever possible at the Christianity.
I dont know if any religion is void of intolerance. Take the pagan Anglo-Saxons invasion of 410 (
http://www.great-britain.co.uk/history/ang-sax.htm) that invaded britian in or Pagan Goth (Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Burgundians and Vandals) attempt at Rome (which lost to christianity and was abolished) Arius regarded Jesus as a prophet who was of a lesser creation than God. The Goths rejected the Holy Trinity. The theological differences are discussed under Arianism. Temunjin (aka Genghis Khan) a shamanistic pagan common to Mongolia at the time destroyed many churches, and abolished Islam from Baghdad (causing a great split, that changed the course of history, spliting the islam religion into multiple factions, and moving it west to africa and europe). Warfare, Religion, and politics dont mix well for any faith that has any tolerance, though they all indoubtedly do. From the Early Babylon pagan religion down to today's modern warfare.
ChallengeWhen you drive around your large cities, take care to see all the different religious building worshipping the different gods. Its not so different then the ancient times where you would see different shrines and temples dedicated to their patron gods; from the Greeks, to the Romans, to the Norse, to the Celts, to the Chinese, to the Japanese, to the American Indians, to the Celts. The world is full of different gods and forms of worship
