When I think about societies that have different gods : ancient Greek, Aztec, Chinese, Norse at first I think that growing up in America, most people I have met believe in one god.  And how most chuckle at the though of having many gods exist at once, and the ancient religions of Polytheism as being a bit absurd.

But really all the different religions and sub religions believe in different gods. Take two different christian religions: Catholics and Baptists. Although some of the names and faces are similar, the gods are entirely different. Even Jesus, all named the same, has hundreds of different incarnations in different christian religions. Even a religion like Buddhism or Muslim has hundreds of different Gods and variations. Cindi has mentioned things about Mormons that even other christians would find absurd.

The idea of having one god, really only lies in the individual or small community group. In reality, the world itself believes in hundreds of Gods, all important to each individual , and though sometimes sharing the same name, individual and unique.

Maybe the ancient greeks werent so absurd with their multi gods.

Okay here is what I believe about this "different Gods" deal.  This is my personal view BTW, and I know that I would get in big trouble if I say this on Sunday mass.  (yes I do go to sunday mass )

Different cultures have different religions (i,e.,  Judaism, , Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, Voodoo, Santeria...and many more) and each religion has its own God, but personally I think that there is only ONE GOD who is represented in each of these religions through various forms of entities and names.

Now someone asked me a question the other day based on my beliefs....if this is how I view God, how do I view satanism which is also a religion, but most importantly...how do I view their God?  I guess the answer lays in the different types of satanism.  Most satanists don't believe in a God as an entity (contrary to popular beliefs of the typical red guy with horns and a tail).   "Satan" is appropriated as a symbol of this worldview, an archetype or the ultimate symbol of the self.  Therefore, if you take this into consideration, you will see that it all comes to "only one God" as I explained before.


tinkerbell

hello!!
   Very interesting idea that you have brought up. As I was reading your comments you made this claim "Take two different christian religions: Catholics and Baptists. Although some of the names and faces are similar, the gods are entirely different" I was wondering if you can give some examples. I do not mean small things as what color his hair was but rather large differences that would merit the claim that they are two different Gods. I apologize for my confusion on your statement.
  Thanks. James

Here is a good example. I found this page that has the aim to correct the beliefs of other religions, half of which are already christian religions, to bring them to there God. Just because they have the same name , God, and similar history , old testament, they believe that god is with them (their versions that is). Both of them believe that there God is with them.

http://www.biblebc.com/Christian_Helps/religious_comparison_summaries.htm

Here is some major christian branches
http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/charts/denominations_beliefs.htm

And if any christians read this answer me, do you really believe that the real god is with another major christian religion fully and as completely as with you? No matter how different you might believe. What I always hear is what the other religions are believing falsely and wrong. And how god will require in order to reach the salvation they talk about they will need to do different things. And will the catholics, baptists, protestants, lutherans, methodists, charismatic, evangelicals, episcopalians, mormons, jehovah witness, jew, mennonites, orhtodox, etc.. expect to reach the same god when they die. From what I have heard from friends and people in the US and Philippines, they wont make it to the same place. And when they others pray and do ceremonies to their christian gods, do you think it actually is being watched and condoned by the god you believe in?


Also although Judaism and Christians believe in the similar old testament god, they dont worship the same exact gods.

Here is a comparison of islam, judaism , and generic christianity
http://contenderministries.org/prophecy/eschatology.php

My bookstore has 15 major translations of One book. The bible. Very very weird. I dont know of form of major religion that twists and turns stuff that is supposed to be the same book.

Each of the major groups has created their own gods (trinity and yet they try to explain that it is only one god, yet three, very weird). And they rearrange the one book, add additional supplimental reading materials (take a look at my christian section of my store and see hundreds of additional books that people read in addition to the bibles).

Now add in the gods of other religions...
http://www.bessel.org/religion.htm

http://lightofthefire.com/world_religions.html

Comparison of christianity to eastern religions
http://www.comparativereligion.com/

Comparison of 5 major religions
http://people.csail.mit.edu/zvim/thesis/13_appC-expertData.pdf#search='religion%20comparisons'

And we havent even started breaking into the smaller religions others might follow.

Thank you very much for the web sites. In this post i would like to refer to the second site that was given. I would agree with you that there are some discripencies between the christian denominations. One being the role of mary. I think it would be wrong to state that they are two distinct Gods that are being worshipped between say catholics and baptist. Take for example the section on creeds. The Nicene creed which mentioned by the anglicans is the sufficient statement for all christians. Within all the denom's the Nicene creed is accepted as true except in the baptist. The baptist how ever do not reject it rather they just don't like creeds. The majority to all baptist would agree with the nicene creed. Agian I would like to say there are descrepencies that appear between the denom's but not sufficient in magnitude to distinigish two different Gods.

To answer your question I would like to say yes that the God I worship is the God of Catholics (i am not chatholic). when we look at God from a christian perspective we have to look at the nicene creed to understand the essence of the christian faith. the creed as follows:

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end. 

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

These are the biblicial truths that unify Christians. With in all denom's and individuals there are mistakes caused by personal bias. Because personal bias is present it does not mean that we are worshiping two distinct Gods. And I do believe that people can have a wrong understanding of God. There are many things I believe about God that i'm sure that i'll come to realize that I am wrong.
      my apology on the long post.
           James

Quote from: jamesBrine on November 06, 2006, 11:52:30 PM

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end. 

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

You made me cry with this wonderful prayer which we used to say every morning before class.  Life has just been hectic for a very long time, and I had forgotten to say it.  Thank you for posting it, and if you don't mind, I would like to post it in Spanish, the way I learned it and the way I said it!

El Credo

Creo en un solo Dios,
Padre todopoderoso,
Creador del cielo y de la tierra
de todo lo visible y lo invisible.

Creo en un solo Señor, Jesucristo,
Hijo único de dios,
nacido del Padre antes de todos los siglos:
Dios de Dios,
Luz de Luz,
Dios verdadero de Dios verdadero,
engendrado, no creado,
de la misma naturaleza del padre,
por quien todo fue hecho;
que por nosotros, los hombres,
y por nuestra salvación
bajó del cielo,
y por obra del Espíritu Santo
se encarnó de María, la Virgen,
y se hizo hombre;
y por nuestra causa fue crucificado
en tiempos de Poncio Pilato;
padeció y fue sepultado,
y resucitó al tercer día, según las Escrituras,
y subió al cielo,
y está sentado a la derecha del Padre;
y de nuevo vendrá con gloria
para juzgar a vivos y muertos,
y su reino no tendrá fin.

Creo en el Espíritu Santo,
Señor y dador de vida,
que procede del Padre y del Hijo,
que con el Padre y el Hijo
recibe una misma adoración y gloria,
y que habló por los profetas.

Creo en la Iglesia,
que es una, santa, católica y apostólica.
Confieso que hay un solo bautismo
para el perdón de los pecados.
Espero la resurrección de los muertos
y la vida del mundo futuro.

Amen.

**************


tinkerbell

Dear Kendra,

As a witch I have dealt with the old cultures. The "one God system" was unknown to them. There was many goddesses which dominated. First there were only goddesses then cames the gods. And because men always strive for power and power apparently, the goddesses were subordinated to men. Particularly good to see at the stories of Zeus. The monotheism arose only much later.
One is interesting compare between the religion of a God;  and the religion of many gods, primarily if women dominate!
Pro-women religions with goddesses didn't know any marking off of minorities unless became, tabooly injuredly one (such as incest). The monotheism lives on it to exclude others to increase.
Related to ts/tg c you find a lot of stuff if you look at the www (just gooooooogle a little bit).
Cathryn Platine for example wrote a lot of good stuff about this topic.
She knows a lot of ancient cultures and tg issue. Attis was a male god which changed to female for example.

WoS

WoS
Thanks for the info. I dont know much about Goddess type religions too much. Something to look into.

Quote from: jamesBrine on November 06, 2006, 11:52:30 PM
Thank you very much for the web sites. In this post i would like to refer to the second site that was given. I would agree with you that there are some discripencies between the christian denominations. One being the role of mary. I think it would be wrong to state that they are two distinct Gods that are being worshipped between say catholics and baptist. Take for example the section on creeds. The Nicene creed which mentioned by the anglicans is the sufficient statement for all christians. Within all the denom's the Nicene creed is accepted as true except in the baptist. The baptist how ever do not reject it rather they just don't like creeds. The majority to all baptist would agree with the nicene creed. Agian I would like to say there are descrepencies that appear between the denom's but not sufficient in magnitude to distinigish two different Gods.

To answer your question I would like to say yes that the God I worship is the God of Catholics (i am not chatholic). when we look at God from a christian perspective we have to look at the nicene creed to understand the essence of the christian faith. the creed as follows:

These are the biblicial truths that unify Christians. With in all denom's and individuals there are mistakes caused by personal bias. Because personal bias is present it does not mean that we are worshiping two distinct Gods. And I do believe that people can have a wrong understanding of God. There are many things I believe about God that i'm sure that i'll come to realize that I am wrong.
      my apology on the long post.
           James

A key I think to whether one really accepts the god of other churches is to walk into that church sit through their service more than once, and feel like you can feel god there. See if you can pray there comfortably. I would like to see especially if you go to one that isnt related historically (cath, luth, method, protest all related and pretty similar) (a break off of your religion, or one that you broke off form) to the one you attend. Baptist go to catholic, charismatic, mormon, mennonite, jehovah witness, or adventist. And see how you feel. Or go to a jewish synagogue and see if you feel god. Its one thing to say that all the christian God(s) are the same, its another to experience it.

Here is some more fun. http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html and here are some stats on all religions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religions

The 2nd chart : all but the Baptist stem from the Catholic line of Christianity, so they all lead back to the Nicene Creed. In fact I have heard from Baptists that Catholicism is the evil and the false prophet that will lead to the End of Days (Armageddon/Tribulation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armageddon). I find this ironic if two churches are both christian.

Lets break it apart: I start with Judaism since that's where the christian god idea originated. Its not the same god really. One might think , well its just the christian god minus the holy spirit and jesus. In the ancient days when egypt and babylon captured the jews and put them into slavery, many of the bible references mention that the egypts (Ra, Horus, Osiris, Hathor, Isis ...)  and babylons (Apsu, Marduk, Tiamat, Ishtar, Ea...)  had other gods. They continue to worship different variations of that god even now.

Judaism
Take Judaism and the break off of the apostles that travelled to europe and Turkey. The Jews still worship the God of the old testament (after all it is the history of the jewish people and faith). They are the chosen people. There is no other god besides him (no Holy Spirit nor Jesus Christ the son). And that no image nor artifact should ever represent him (no crosses, paintings, or symbols). He performs wonders and signs for his covenant people (jews). After death there is a shadowy realm called Sheol. After death various believe that either you will go to heaven, reincarnated, or will resurrected in the future time. Jewish people are assured happiness and peace (shalom) in the next life just because they are jews. They follow thefirst 5 books (Torah) of moses as divine instructions to the Jewish people. The laws were expanded and clarified into the Talmud and Mishnah.

Orthodox believe God is a spirit; Conservative believe god is impersonal, unkowable, and indescrible; Reform God is mystic, supernatural, and humanist; Hasidic God is panentheism, the universe is part of God, but not the whole of God's Being and Nature is Divine. Salvation can be attained in different ways too for different kind of jews: some repentance and prayer, some self improvement and social justice, some by experiencing spiritual exultation, some by law-mercy-grace.

Some believe the Mosaic Covenant is still in place today.  Early Jewish groups around the time of the split of christianity were the Pharisees, Essenes, and Sadducees.

Even one jewish person replied when asking the question  if the jewish god and christian are the same http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060713112319AAtzKKl

http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/charts/christianity_judaism.htm

Early Christianity

Orthodox (Catholicism line)
Now adding the split of christianity by some of the Apostles mainly the Roman Saul (later known as Paul) (who had never met Jesus , just a claim that jesus appeared to him on the road to Damascus) who Peter disagreed to the validity of Paul's apostleship. The catholics believe that they recieve the apostolic succession through Peter down to the current bishops. Paul created the largest of the 3 main early christian groups the orthodox, which Emperor Constantine (a pagan worshiper for most of his life till being baptized near death) helped to legalize, after being illegal and many put to death up till that time for being christian.

Peter and Paul got into a heated arguement about Gentiles not taking up the jewish laws and customs as early Jewish Christians followed.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Christians.

Peter spent time in Antioch and later according to some accounts met his fate in Rome being crucified.  Linus became the biship of Rome after Peter somewhere around d. 60 (2nd Pope) according to the histories.

The Catholic that has evolved down today is very different then the early Jewish Christianity in very significant ways such as not following the Mosiac laws, abolished of circumcism, change of the Sabbath day, creation of idols and artifacts, not following strict dietary ways. Peter himself expected christians to follow the jewish ways and still worship the same god. 

Much later the church created the worship of the 3 gods in 1 : Father , son, Holy Spirit.

Early post Jesus scriptures varied and were numerous.

Jewish Christians
Early christians fully expected Jesus to return in their lifetime, so spent most their time following the Beattitudes in addition to the mosaic law, in order to inherit the kingdom of god when he did return. These Jewish Christians were lead by James the Just. Most of the other apostles where Jewish Christians.


Gnosticism
1st century christians emphasizing the salvific benefit of individual wisdom

Gnostic systems are typically marked by:

1.The notion of a remote, supreme and incomprehensible monadic divinity - this figure is known under a variety of names, including 'Pleroma' and 'Bythos' (Greek 'deep');
2.The introduction by emanation of further divine beings, which are nevertheless identifiable as aspects of the God from which they proceeded; the progressive emanations are often conceived metaphorically as a gradual and progressive distancing from the ultimate source, which brings about an instability in the fabric of the divine nature;
3.The subsequent identification of the Fall of Man as an occurrence with its ultimate foundations within divinity itself, rather than as occurring either entirely or indeed partially through human agency; this stage in the divine emanation is usually enacted through the recurrent Gnostic figure of Sophia (Greek 'Wisdom'), whose presence in a wide variety of Gnostic texts is indicative of her central importance;
4. The introduction of a distinct creator god, who is named as in the Platonist tradition demiurgos.
Evidence exists that the conception of the demiurge has derivation from figures in Plato's Timaeus and Republic. In the former, the demiurge is the benevolent creator of the universe from pre-existent matter, to whose limitations he is enthralled in creating the cosmos; in the latter, the description of the leontomorphic 'desire' in Socrates' model of the psyche bears a strong resemblance to descriptions of the demiurge as being in the shape of the lion.
Elsewhere this figure is called 'Ialdabaoth', 'Samael' (Aramaic sæmʕa-ʔel, 'blind god') or 'Saklas' (Syriac sækla, 'the foolish one'), who is sometimes ignorant of the superior God, and sometimes opposed to it; thus in the latter case he is correspondingly malevolent.
The demiurge typically creates a group of coactors named 'Archons', who preside over the material realm and, in some cases, present obstacles to the soul seeking ascent from it;
5.The estimation of the world, owing to the above, as flawed or a production of 'error' but nevertheless as good as its constituent material might allow. This world is typically an inferior simulacrum of a higher-level reality or consciousness. The inferiority may be compared to the technical inferiority of a painting, sculpture, or other handicraft to the thing(s) those crafts are supposed to be a representation of. In certain other cases it is also perceived as evil and constrictive, a deliberate prison for its inhabitants;
6.The explanation of this state through the use of a complex mythological-cosmological drama in which a divine element 'falls' into the material realm and lodges itself within certain human beings; from here, it may be returned to the divine realm through a process of awakening. It may be noted that the salvation of the individual thus mirrors a concurrent restoration of the divine nature; a central Gnostic innovation was to elevate individual redemption to the level of a cosmically significant event;
7.Knowledge of a specific kind as a central factor in this process of restoration, achieved through the mediation of a redeemer figure (Christ, or, in other cases, Seth or Sophia).
Gnostic moral behaviour as being generally ascetic in basis, expressed most fluently in their sexual and dietary practice.

Marcionism
-Marcionism reflects a different understanding of the roots of Christian belief than that commonly held today, and at one time was almost the most popular form of Christianity. Marcion declared that Christianity was distinct from and in opposition to Judaism. Marcion rejected the entire Hebrew Bible, and declaring that the God of the Hebrew Bible was a lesser demiurge, who had created the earth, but was (de-facto) the source of evil.

The premise of Marcionism is that many of the teachings of Christ (not Jesus — Marcion treated Jesus as being distinct from Christ are incompatible with the god of the Jewish religion. Focusing on the Pauline traditions of the Gospel, Marcion felt that all other conceptions of the Gospel, and especially any association with the Old Testament religion, was opposed to, and a backsliding from, the truth. He further regarded the arguments of Paul regarding law and gospel, wrath and grace, works and faith, flesh and spirit, sin and righteousness, death and life, as the essence of religious truth. He ascribed these aspects and characteristics as two principles, the righteous and wrathful god of the Old Testament, who is at the same time identical with the creator of the world, and a second God of the Gospel, quite unknown before Christ, who is only love and mercy.

Marcionites hold maltheistic views of the god of the Hebrew Bible (mockingly known to them as Yaltabaoth), that he was inconsistent, jealous, wrathful and genocidal, and that the material world he created is defective, a place of suffering; the god who made such a world is a bungling or malicious demiurge. "In the god of the [Old Testament] he saw a being whose character was stern justice, and therefore anger, contentiousness and unmercifulness. The law which rules nature and man appeared to him to accord with the characteristics of this god and the kind of law revealed by him, and therefore it seemed credible to him that this god is the creator and lord of the world (κοσμοκράτωρ). As the law which governs the world is inflexible and yet, on the other hand, full of contradictions, just and again brutal, and as the law of the Old Testament exhibits the same features, so the god of creation was to Marcion a being who united in himself the whole gradations of attributes from justice to malevolence, from obstinacy to inconsistency."In Marcionite belief, Christ is not a Jewish Messiah, but a spiritual entity that was sent by the Monad to reveal the truth about existence, and thus allowing humanity to escape the earthly trap of the demiurge. Marcion called God, the Stranger God, or the Alien God, in some translations, as this deity had not had any previous interactions with the world, and was wholly unknown

Montanism The sect was founded by a prophet, Montanus, and two prophetesses, Maximilla and Prisca, sometimes called Priscilla


The Nicene Creed (325) revised (381) only applies to Catholic based christians ( Catholic, Syrian Orthodox (Jacobite) Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian, Anglican, Lutheran, and most other Protestant Churches).

Yes Baptists dont accept creeds. Baptists hold that authority comes from only the bible.

QuoteWe believe that the only thing in this universe that is perfect (Ps 19:7), pure (Ps 19:8; 119:140), without error (Ps 12:6,7), and capable of directing men to God (Jn 20:31) is the written word of God, the Holy Bible. By the Holy Bible, We mean the collection of sixty-six books, from Genesis to Revelation

Various baptist churches can vary in what they believe and preach depending on the Pastor or Preacher. There is no

thanks for the response!

I think I may be reading you wrong so I apologize if my response came of mistaken. I do not believe in pluralism. I do not believe that the Christian God is the Jewish God is the Hindu God etc... Another problem is that you mentioned some groups within the christian faith are in fact not christian denominations.

I have gone into many other churches and said they worship the same God as I do. I have had the privilage to experience other churches ranging from baptist-salvation army-catholic and felt as if I was worshiping the same God.

Second could you define for me what you mean by God. What characteristics do you attribute to him as important in defining him God. I only used him for a lack of better language, I am in no way suggesting God is male.

hay im an atlantion witch its like pow wow magicks but with earth magicks we beleve in all gods and goddess but we also beleve in one as other would say suprime "GOD" we call it "IT" it a hermafidit? not shore how to spell that lol sorry but any way we think "IT" is lazey and made all the other beings to take charge of things . oh and we also beleve that all being in this universe know what is right and what is wrong and its up to the being to choise whats right.   just the same as  one of my fav Quots form the movie K-PAX  "you humans, you Buddhists and you Christians have no idea what you Budda and your christ ment."    well anyway eather way we do not beleve in some "MAN" born on earth  oh and we also beleve in the Earth Moon and Sun you know the this you use everyday that are 1000000000000 X stronger and bigger then us.  sorry just had to add my thoughts lol any way Blessed be all live and let live.

Yep thats what I always hear first. I have heard it more than once. Thats one of the rationals that the other groups that differ are not truely christian. And some of these worship more like the early christian did biblicly speaking. They believe in the biblical God, and even in the holy spirit and even jesus, but some discount the differences just by saying they are not christian. All it takes to be chistian is to believe in God, Jesus, and Holy spirit in some manner. Non christians, like me (though I have been to several christian services each very different)  look at all the christian sects as such. And thats all.

I have read the 4 gospels. And the church that Jesus describes in his words, is very vague. He more of describes how to live (avoid riches, help others, inspire others, love each other). Yes all of the christian churches teach along these lines, but how and what is enforced, recommended, the methods of overcoming sins, prayer, makeup of priests vary greatly from strict mennonite like societys, to very free general christian groups that act more like social hang outs.

Christian-one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ.

And a 3 in 1 god: Father, Son, and Holy spirit is 3 gods, polytheism. Ask anyone not christian. No matter however you explain it. Jews believe in 1 god and 1 god only. That is monotheism.

God a specific being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship, possessing unique individual qualities, function, space, or time;  one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality.

Yes, I know of some of the religions a god (s) that are intersexed. will post after work. off I go...

  there is one Q that i all ways ask  and that is if a person beleves in "GOD" and "HE" made Everything even the Earth right? then that makes him a "NON-HUMAN"

so the thing is that all humans need something to beleve in  it all comes down to the typ of person you are  .... Example i ask you " your are locked in are car with nothing but a brick, what do you do?"

whats your ancwer? and i tell you the type of person you are.

you see there is lots of wounders about other beleves and ways of life but this world Can Not evolove with out other religions the things that controlle them however are Sexisum, Raceisum, Greed, Lust and Power.  with out these things the world can exisit even with religionswe just would need to take out the "HE, She , Black, White , Love, Money, and Controll    other then that all religions are just someones oppions with that said they can be  kool or verry bad.

Dear Valerie,

For me as a dianic witch the male principle isn't so important in the admiration of the divine one. The female principle neglected became many thousands of years and it is time now to change!
While Christians often imagined their God (at least as children) as a man with a long beard or as a great something which seemed to be incomprehensible, we see the divine everywhere. In nature, the animals, and also in us people.
The pagan religions have often stood to a greater tolerance in past when it was ever possible at the Christianity. While (fundamentalistic) Christians are trying to force their faith upon others; would a pagan never come onto the idea? For us, every goddess and every God only a symbol of the energies which incomprehensibly and anyway is available!
There are people who mention themself as "Christians", who follow and kill us only because we don't want to pray to their God created by men. Which was created to oppress women and nature.
For these Christians we are a great danger. Because we destroy all their ideas of God by our existence! That's why they fight against us!!!
Please understand me correctly! I don't sentence the Christianity but only the fundamentalism in the Christianity, Judaism, Islam etc.! Because all this destroys and doesn't build up!

WoS

Hello!
thanks for your reply to my comment. there is a statement in which you said " it takes to be chistian is to believe in God, Jesus, and Holy spirit in some manner." could you please elaborate on "some manner."

Second, you make a great insight into the idea that Jesus teaching of a church is vague. This is very true. Because he did set out a church it  means that the layout of a church can vary from culture to culture. A problem that arises as you mentioned is that christian begin to think other Christian churches are wrong.

The only way I know to measure what is correct or not is to have something to measure it agianst. What we measure other churches against are the central beliefs found in the Bible that have been developed and thought through for thousands of years. There are certian beliefs one must hold in order to be a christian. It would be safe to say that these beliefs can be found in the Nicene creed.

Thirdly I would like to comment on the Trinity. this topic is large and very messy. When discussing the Trintiy we can not apply our views of it but instead understand it from the Bible as the bible displays the nature of God. I am currently doing some reading on the Trinity for a project and will pass some information on to bring a christian perspective of the Trinity to see it as monotheisitc not polytheistic.

Agian, thanks for you reply to my comments.
       James

Trinity
Yes for some reason , probably because of the words that say in the bible, "there is only one god" is how they have problems trying to make the trinity into one god. The old testament doesnt teach the trinity. The new testament doesnt refer to the trinity, rather the parts are referred throughout, except in 2 major John paragraphs. The holy spirit is never clearly written as a being with the God Father, and Son.

Jewish belief in the holy spirit
Holy Spirit is a Hebrew figure of speech, the ruah hakodesh ("holy spirit"). In Jewish usage, however, this concept was never identified with a separate person, but with a Divine power which could fill men, as, for instance, the prophets

Yes I have read from sites such as http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-development-old-testament.htm which try to show how the new testament was wrongly interpreted by the Jewish people. And some of these arguements are quite unsubstantiated. And the fact is, when you read the New testament, God and son of god are quite common. And Spirit of god are also common. Yet in the Old testament it is only small hints of possible referrences, which christian writers twist and turn to trying to make the new testament and the old testament agree. Something like this should be clear, direct, and in the 10 commandments, not all puzzled up and cryptic.

Jewish view on Messiah vs Yeshua (Jesus)
The Jewish people now days do not believe Yeshua (Jesus) of Nazareth was the Messiah, because he did not do as the bible had prophecized according to them.

"As for Jesus of Nazareth, who claimed to be the Anointed One and was killed by the court, Daniel had already prophecied about him, thus: "And the children of your people's rebels shall raise themselves to set up prophecy and will stumble." (Ibid. 14) Can there be a bigger stumbling block than this? All the Prophets said that the Anointed One saves Israel and rescues them, gathers their strayed ones and strengthens their mitzvot whereas this one caused the loss of Israel by sword, and to scatter their remnant and humiliate them, and to change the Torah and to cause most of the world to erroneously worship a god besides the Lord. But the human mind has no power to reach the thoughts of the Creator, for His thoughts and ways are unlike ours. All these matters of Yeshua of Nazareth and of the Ishmaelite who stood up after him (Muhammad) are only intended to pave the way for the Anointed King, and to mend the entire world to worship God together, thus: "For then I shall turn a clear tongue to the nations to call all in the Name of the Lord and to worship him with one shoulder. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah

John main source of Jesus/God relationship
Many of the most profound christian theological passages come from John (which if he was the apostle, was one of the 3 pillars of the church along with Peter and James). And John who wrote the last Gospel (Gr Euaggelion-Good News) writen around d. 90, (and wrote Revelations when exiled by Romans to the island of Patmos) many believe to supplement the other Synaptic Gospels- Gospels that were heavily dependant and related on each other by using the same words at times, same order, and same relationships, probably influenced by the same source; Gospel of Mark d. late60-early70  (Mark, Peter's Interpreter who heard what Peter had said, then wrote it down later), Gospel of Matthew d60-100 (tax collector who became an apostle) , Gospel of Luke d50-100 (written by the Luke (a doctor) the companion of Paul who also probably wrote the Acts).

Fifth Gospel Debate-Thomas and the male/female
A few add a fifth gospel, Gospel of Thomas , which I fully enjoy. It has a very profound passage which talks about men and women. 114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females do not deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven." Which is absolutely the most problematic verse for orthodox christians to accept the book as Gospel, although the rest of the gospel is related to the other four.

Only One God
"And God spake all these words, saying I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; "Exodus 20:1-5

The famous words that added Jesus to the Gods
John 1 - 5 As soon as John wrote those famous words "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." john 1:1 - 5

Then Paul wrote in Colossians 1:12 -  "Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." John 3:16-21

"Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" John 8:57-58

Books of John
Written by John, which doesnt identify himself in the book, but many believe is possibly John the Apostle who wrote also Revelations and probably I John. Who lived in Ephesus (where his reputed grave is), and in Ephesus John lived with and cared for Mary, the mother of Jesus. Paul used Ephesus as a base for his work. Which you can see on the map. You can also the Island of Patmos just off shore of Ephesus  a few islands away, where he was exiled and wrote the book of Revelations. http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/asia_minor_p20.jpg

Quoteit takes to be chistian is to believe in God, Jesus, and Holy spirit in some manner

Lets take the Holy Spirit

Pentecostalism
named for the event of Pentecost, the coming of the Holy Spirit when Jesus' disciples were gathered in Jerusalem. They also believe that, once received, the Holy Spirit is God working through the recipient to perform the gifts of the Spirit. These gifts are portrayed in 1 Corinthians chapter 12.The Pentecostal movement places special emphasis on the work of the Holy Spirit, and especially on the gifts mentioned above, believing that they are still given today. Pentecostalism holds that the 'Baptism with the Holy Spirit' is distinct from the salvific born again experience, as a usually distinct experience in which the Spirit's power is received by the Christian in a new way, with the result that the Christian can now be more readily used to do signs, miracles, and wonders for the sake of evangelism or for ministry within the church.

Many Pentecostals also believe that the normative evidence of this infilling (baptism) of the Holy Spirit is the ability to speak in other tongues

Roman Catholicism
No one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God." Now God's Spirit, who reveals God, makes known to us Christ, his Word, his living Utterance, but the Spirit does not speak of himself. The Spirit who "has spoken through the prophets" makes us hear the Father's Word, but we do not hear the Spirit himself. We know him only in the movement by which he reveals the Word to us and disposes us to welcome him in faith. The Spirit of truth who "unveils" Christ to us "will not speak on his own." Such properly divine self-effacement explains why "the world cannot receive [him], because it neither sees him nor knows him," while those who believe in Christ know the Spirit because he dwells with them."

Eastern Orthodoxy
proclaims that the Father is the eternal source of the Godhead, from Whom is begotten the Son eternally and also from Whom the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally. Note that unlike the Catholic Church and western Christianity in general, the Orthodox Church does not espouse the use of the Filioque in describing the procession of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is believed to eternally proceed from the Father, not from the Father and the Son.

Catholic reply to old testament lack of holy spirit representation and early church lack of trinity
The Old Testament clearly does not envisage God's spirit as a person . . . God's spirit is simply God's power. If it is sometimes represented as being distinct from God, it is because the breath of Yahweh acts exteriorly. ... The majority of New Testament texts reveal God's spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God.

Measuring stick
The only measuring stick I have to measure is the doctrine of the new testament (for christian) and old testament (jew and christian). Everything else is just elaborations of what is contained in these canons. The Nicene creed was created since there was variations in the interpretation of the reality of god. I dont agree with the abolishment of non nicene creed accepted christians such as Arius (even though he did not agree with the majority of the other priests), Gnostic, and christian jews were not present at the council. I dont agree with the illegality of christian to jew conversions resulting. I dont agree with the setting up of the churches throughout the empire as a way to indirectly worship the empire through his main religions leader partner such as the Popes. I guess all empires do such things however, and just is a reality of war, empires, and religion even outside of christianity.

The thought of not including Restoration type christian denominations as christians is quite absurd, but something I have heard before.

Constantine and his gathering to form the Nicene Creed
The Nicene Creed is not part of the New Testament. It is not written by any apostle, rather priest and leaders written in the 4rth century. The trinity written in the creed, is and has never been written in the bible. The relationships of God, Son, and Holy Spirit are referred in different ways in the bible, but the 3 relationship to each other as gods isnt written like it is not written with the clarity as it is in the creed. Gaius Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus (aka Emperor Constantine I) (who had inherited Britian, spain, germany, and Gaul from his father, and fought the Goths lead by Licinius in 324 where he flew the standard of Labarum. Uniting from the broken empire that had a tetrarchy. And became sole emperor of the entire roman empire. He  moved Rome to the city of Byzantium (Istanbul,Constantinople). He then set in laws to outlaw conversion of christians to jews. He banished christians sects that did not follow the standard set in his arranged councils. He approved the creation of serfdoms (followers of lords) to establish the empire. He was very much like all the emperors of the world (Alexander-spread Greek culture and religion to the middle east; Genghis Khan-abolishment of caliphate of Islam; all the Dynasties of China using Buddhism ,Confucianism, and Taoism. ; Emperors and Shoguns of Japan using Shinto and conflicts with christianity. They all either abolish, or use religions to their purposes. Constantine was no different, abolishing the pagan religions, and different christian sects, and being baptized only at near death.

One thought of unifying all the christian churches is something common starting with the Nicene Council, on down to todays united christian type churches, but in reality they always exclude churches that just dont quite fit, and call them non christian. Thats fine, but isnt reality.

Pagan as being more tolerant?

QuoteThe pagan religions have often stood to a greater tolerance in past when it was ever possible at the Christianity.

I dont know if any religion is void of intolerance. Take the pagan Anglo-Saxons invasion of 410 (http://www.great-britain.co.uk/history/ang-sax.htm) that invaded britian in or Pagan Goth (Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Burgundians and Vandals) attempt at Rome (which lost to christianity and was abolished) Arius regarded Jesus as a prophet who was of a lesser creation than God. The Goths rejected the Holy Trinity. The theological differences are discussed under Arianism. Temunjin (aka Genghis Khan) a shamanistic pagan common to Mongolia at the time destroyed many churches, and abolished Islam from Baghdad (causing a great split, that changed the course of history, spliting the islam religion into multiple factions, and moving it west to africa and europe). Warfare, Religion, and politics dont mix well for any faith that has any tolerance, though they all indoubtedly do. From the Early Babylon pagan religion down to today's modern warfare.

Challenge
When you drive around your large cities, take care to see all the different religious building worshipping the different gods. Its not so different then the ancient times where you would see different shrines and temples dedicated to their patron gods; from the Greeks, to the Romans, to the Norse, to the Celts, to the Chinese, to the Japanese, to the American Indians, to the Celts. The world is full of different gods and forms of worship

Hello.

Kendra i'm sorry I have not replied to your post. I have currently been really busy with school and have not had time to seriously consider your post. I shall try to post something by the end of the week in response to what you have read. Again I would like to offer my apologies.
      James