Spotting a MTF

[Chaos_Dagger]

I get into some interesting conversations at my new job.  It`s just training but some of these convos aren`t exactly work place friendly but oh well.  Our `group`consists of: A guy name Matthew(starts the perverted and controversial conversations), Stephanie, Kaitlyn, and I.

Today Matthew started by asking if we suddenly woke up the next morning as the oppsite gender, would we go homosexual phsyical or mentally (Ie, were Kaitlyn to wake up male, would she date women or guys still)  because of this I knew SRS was going to come up at some point in the day.

It did, at the end of the day.  Matthew mentioned he was watching something called `Manswers` or something like that and they were talking about how to spot a cross dresser.  The point he chose to bring up was looking at the hands.  I asked him if he meant size of the hands, since some males can have small femnine looking hands.  Lifting his hand up to demonstrate he replied `What they said was, that all genetic male`s index fingers are level, or inline, with their third finger.  However in females the lengths are differe, one being longer than the other.`  He, and the man beside him who had listened in showed that it was true (at least on them), the girls in the group checked thiers to see that they were not level.

Then I checked mine and... well they aren`t the same length *gasp*  So either this theory is bogus, OR it has to do with hormones in the womb.  In the case that is has something to do in hormones in the womb, that proper males have finger lengths equal in this case.  Then would that mean the fact that mine are not, PROVE genetically speaking that I am trans

Thoughts anyone, personally I don`t believe it but that`s just me.  Fun to think about though


P.S.  Sorry for the lack of question marks, but mine is not working at the moment.  It happens sometimes and I don`t know why.  I have to restart the computer to fix it normally.  All it gives me now is this .....É  oh yea greaterthan, lessthan, qoutation marks and stuff don`t work either when this happens.

[Dana_W]

I heard about this a while ago and held up my hands to see. When I saw the results I just sighed. On one hand the fingers were equal length. On the other they were not.

Story of my life. I don't fit into anyone's gender categories.

Like you, I have no idea if there's anything to back this up.

[Janet_Girl]

That theory is so much manure.  Mine are different.  And I know of women whose hands are bigger than mine.  But my hands are wider than most women.

There are small ways to tell but you would have to observer someone for a bit to see them.  First impressions are the best way to tell and even then you could be wrong.

[Alyssa M.]

The answer to the question is that --- WAIT A MINUTE WHO CARES HOW YOU CAN SPOT A CROSS DRESSER WTF WHAT A JERK -- ... ahem. Excuse me.

Um... Yes. Matthew is a jerk. Maybe a nice guy in some ways, but he's definitely a selfish jerk if he thinks it's okay to "start peverted and controversial conversations." In America, that would likely fall under the category of "creating a hostile work environment." It's really not okay. And your discomfort in this situation is precisely the reason why. Now I'm not saying to go find a lawyer and rake him over the coals. But you might tell a supervisor a general comment about the overly-lewd environment, that you're worried "someone" might get offended, or even tell Matthew to his face.

I had an office mate (and I have certainly had more than one coworker) that liked to talk about "perverted and controversial topics" -- the one I am thinking about used to sporadically say ridiculously homophobic and transphobic things. He was a nice guy, and clueless, but definitely a bigot. It really sucked trying to pretend I didn't care.

So, as for your fingers, yes there's supposed to be some weak correlation between thinkgs like finger length rations, direction of the hair whorl, elbow carry angle, etc. and intrauterine hormonal levels, and trans or gay identification. Some. It's not terribly strong. It neither proves nor disproves anything. And who cares, anyway? Etiology of trans identity is certainly a fascinating topic, but if you transition because you find some natural mechanism that explains why you "ought" to be a woman, then you're transitioning for the wrong reasons. You should transition because you are pretty near certain it will make your life better. But, yes, it's pretty interesting to think about. I believe questions about trans identities and experiences can probe deeply into the question of what it means to be a person.

Back to Matthew: Why does he want to be able to "spot a crossdresser"? Why not spend that effort learning to distinguish between Vietnamese and Thai women instead? (Or something equally irrelevant.) Is he into trans women? Is he a closet case, and wants to "explore" or something like that? Probably, he want to be able to out trans women. Which is a lousy thing to do. Perhaps he's afraid that one will come on to him. You can tell him he needn't worry. But should he find himself in an amorous relationship with a trans woman, as long as he's having a good time, why should he care? Is he afraid he'll discover he is gay? And ... so what? And why would that make him gay anyway? And so on. These are the really burning questions.

[Cindy]

I totally agree with Alyssa.
The guy is a class one jerk. I have to discipline (Oops, counsel) some of these bigots in my work place. They are in the main small minded people who 'claim' they never intended any harm by insulting women in the work force, by touching women, "Oh it was an accident, I didn't mean to touch her bottom".. and worse in some cases. But one got really upset when one of the girls fought back by addressing him as a pervert in every conversation, with him and with his co-workers. " Yes I got the report from the pervert" "Jack and Pervert are you going to the footy on the weekend"  I had to counsel her as well but I had a smile on my face while I did so.


Report him and ignore him. Hurtful comments are just that. Hurtful. And you don't need to suffer hurt at work. IMO.

Cindy

[placeholdername]

That theory is even more ridiculous than the arm bend one.

[BunnyBee]

"Manswers"  lol....

This idea seems really silly to me, but I can't even answer the question because depending how and where you measure, my ring finger could be a) shorter, b) longer, or c) the same length as my index finger o.o.  I inherited this goofy shape from my mom, which I found out when I compared hands with her one time and saw she has the same funky thing going on.  Fat rings just do not work on our ring fingers.

As for where trans-ness comes from and whether or not something "proves" a biological basis for it, and all that.  I dunno, the more I come to terms with this whole gender thing, the less important finding out the truth of its actual origin seems.

[lilacwoman]

here in UK  any unpleasant conversation will get the person a quick trip to the supervisors office and accidentally touching another person will see them out the door...

matthew the jerk has some problems directly related to hidden or suppressed homsexuality...but tries to deflect any thoughts that he may by constantly pointing out others 'perversions'...it's a smokescreen...it's called Malignant Bisexuality Syndrome...I worked for a guy who constantly sneered at TS and gays...then he was outed as one of the homos who got together in a barn in the woods...

[Muffin]

Apparently it's called digit ratio and like anything it's inconclusive, everyone is different and not everything can be put in groups, columns and boxes right? The joys of nature.
For a lot of people if they're exposed to certain hormones in the womb then it's purely physical I'd say and means nothing to your gender, just a case of bad luck!!!

[no_id]

When it comes to scientific study of hands and finger ratio's, everyone might as well wear big, fluffy gloves; http://www.unl.edu/rhames/courses/readings/homofinger/homo_finger.html

From the page of Simon LeVay (also contains the finger ratio study (emphasis on sexuality) and a fingerprints one)

Comment: None of these anatomical studies inspire tremendous confidence, though the D2:D4 findings in women seem the best documented, and are consistent with the prenatal hormone theory.

(source).

When it comes to the dude, sounds to me like he's just a little dog waiting for someone to throw a ball. Personally I'd likely make a 'I saw a study about how penis size is directly influenced by non-verbal communication...' remark, but it's kind of sad and mean to throw a ball in a dog's face I suppose. 

[Asfsd4214]

Ok, for starters he has it wrong.

What he's talking about is the finger index ratio, or your index finger length divided by your ring finger length. Most women have a ratio of 1 (same length) or higher (longer index finger), most men have about 0.96 (longer ring finger). The difference is most noticeable in your dominant hand.

Keep an eye on it, you'll find it's pretty true. Most men appear to have a longer ring finger, women a longer index finger. It's said that finger index ratio and genitals are the two major physically visible sexually dimorphic characteristics at birth, both influenced by the levels of hormones in the womb. Some studies have shown MTF's on average fit into the female norm of 1 or higher.

Studies have also shown many other traits related to index ratio, ability at math, sports, sexual orientation, etc.

Once again, obviously there are exceptions to the rule. But it's a relatively accurate phenomenon.

There's a lot of utter rubbish trans spotting things out there, and for trans spotting, this one is especially rubbish because MTF's fall into the same average as genetic females, which is one of the basis's of the argument that TS is something you're born, rather than from environmental origins.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TBX-4H16P9S-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=e04f0b33aa587b1527a757ce04a3cad4

[Dana Lane]

I heard about this a while ago and held up my hands to see. When I saw the results I just sighed. On one hand the fingers were equal length. On the other they were not.

Story of my life. I don't fit into anyone's gender categories.

Like you, I have no idea if there's anything to back this up.

Mine are the same way.

[janepf]

so would kaitlyn date men or women?

[Asfsd4214]

Mine are the same way.

Better question is which one is longer? Index or Ring?

[Sandy]

P.S.  Sorry for the lack of question marks, but mine is not working at the moment.  It happens sometimes and I don`t know why.  I have to restart the computer to fix it normally.  All it gives me now is this .....É  oh yea greaterthan, lessthan, qoutation marks and stuff don`t work either when this happens.

Is it a PS2 or a USB keyboard?  The possible problems and solutions are different for both.

BTW: That is a generality about males and females.  Much like men are taller than women.  It is mostly true, but not always.  Mine are different, I've known that for a while, I'm not sure if that makes me intersexed or not.

-Sandy

[spacial]

`What they said was, that all genetic male`s index fingers are level, or inline, with their third finger.  However in females the lengths are differe, one being longer than the other.`  He, and the man beside him who had listened in showed that it was true (at least on them), the girls in the group checked thiers to see that they were not level.

And the second sign of madness is looking for hairs on the palm of your hand.

School boy stuff which kinda demonstrates this fellow is not really ready for the world of work.

[Muffin]

I agree tasha but the hands are such a big issue along with foot size and shoulder/hips ratio. The biggest physical hurdles some TS girls have to get over during early transition IMO.
I find no matter where I go I'm always conscious of them and try my best to hide them or position them in a way that doesn't make them stand out, yet on the other hand it's not like kids come up to me asking if I can palm a basketball lol >_>

[xsocialworker]

Conversely, I have met transmen with beards and pattern baldness who were so effective looking I thought they were guys exploring transitioning to female when they showed up at my former support group. However they always had smooth small hands that outed them. We didn't get a lot of f/m's in that group, so I really wasn't expected one when they showed up. We did get a lot of m/f's who came in "drab" for multiple reasons.

[milktea]

xsocialworker: i think it's relatively easy if one is unhappy with his hands being 'smooth', try doing laundry with cold water in winter and then not dry your hands afterwards, never use handcream, take apart your car and put it back again every sunday...won't take too long before you can use your hands as sandpaper...

and on cars...i heard that men hold their steering wheel on the sides or top and women more towards the bottom, or is it the other way? but definitely men has much higher probability of one hand driving..

[BunnyBee]

I heard that men always push doors open with two hands to establish dominance as they enter a room. ~.^