Campus group wants transgendered bathrooms

[LostInTime]

Link


EDMONTON — A debate is swirling at the University of Alberta over a campus campaign to promote gender-neutral washrooms for the transsexual or transgendered.

The posters, which read "Infinite genders . . . two washrooms?" state that going to the washroom is often dangerous and stressful for transgendered, transsexual, intersexed, androgynous, and gender-ambiguous people.

[angelsgirl]

"If I choose to be a vegetarian, I'm not going to expect everyone I'm hanging out with to be a vegetarian.

"It's a choice if you practice (transgenderism) or not," Lo said.

That really blew up my battleship!

I wish people could really hear how fricken stupid they sound when they open their face-holes!  Comparing transgenderism to vegetarianism is like comparing eggplant to steak (ha ha)!  It just doesn't match up!   

Secondly, it's not a choice, diptard!  NOBODY who's TG wakes up one morning and says "You know, I think that I'm going have a sex change just for the hell of it. Hmm, yeah, all that shame and embarrassment and ridicule really sounds like something I'd like to do. Sign me up for that!"  It's like those people that think being gay is a choice. Yeah. Right.

There definately should be unisex bathrooms on campus. TG students need to be accommodated as much as any other student with a special need is.  If I have insomnia, I wouldn't be forced to have a roommate. I were a vegetarian like Dipsy Mookington up there, the cafeteria would offer meat-free food choices for me.

And that's my rampage for the day.

[Steph]

For what it's worth, I think that Lo doesn't understand the term transgender.  She said that "It's a choice if you practice (transgenderism) or not," It is true that there are aspects/lifestyles of being TG that are choices and it is unfortunate that TS's get lumped in with the definition as being TS is definitely not a choice.  The term Transgender is confusing and encompasses far to many differences under one umbrella to be effective and valid.

I was interviewed myself a few weeks ago by a representative from York University in Toronto, Ontario over this very issue.  Some of the questions were quite intriguing and many dealt with the safety issue, specifically "as a TS woman, why is there a need to have a female only washroom?".  The answer was that of safety and the need for privacy.  When a woman feels threatened or in need of help one of the areas they can seek safety is often the female washroom where other females are around who would help her.  Females socialize in the washroom and often help each other in many many ways such as borrowing sanitary items, make-up, they stand around and chat etc.

I guess for the others (CD, TV, IS etc.) before anyone could comment we would need to know why they needed to have a separate wash room as where would it end.  Would institutes such as those that offer physical fitness facilities be require to build separate changing rooms for those who attended the gyms... one for males and one for women (TS included for each) one for male CD's & TV's, and one for female CD's & TV's, then would there need to be one for those who are IS, again one for those with a genetic male body and one for the female body.

A bit of a situation.

Steph

[Melissa]

"If I choose to be a vegetarian, I'm not going to expect everyone I'm hanging out with to be a vegetarian.

"It's a choice if you practice (transgenderism) or not," Lo said.

That really blew up my battleship!

I wish people could really hear how fricken stupid they sound when they open their face-holes!  Comparing transgenderism to vegetarianism is like comparing eggplant to steak (ha ha)!  It just doesn't match up!   

Secondly, it's not a choice, diptard!  NOBODY who's TG wakes up one morning and says "You know, I think that I'm going have a sex change just for the hell of it. Hmm, yeah, all that shame and embarrassment and ridicule really sounds like something I'd like to do. Sign me up for that!"  It's like those people that think being gay is a choice. Yeah. Right.

There definately should be unisex bathrooms on campus. TG students need to be accommodated as much as any other student with a special need is.  If I have insomnia, I wouldn't be forced to have a roommate. I were a vegetarian like Dipsy Mookington up there, the cafeteria would offer meat-free food choices for me.

And that's my rampage for the day.

You really crack me up.  The thing is, if you asked these people if they could choose to be gay or transgendered, they absolutely could not.  Therefore it's not a choice.

Melissa

[madison]

I've got to say I agree with what Steph is saying here. The notion of a transgendered bathroom is complex and raises so many issues.

On the one hand, like Steph said, where does it end? How far down the list of subcultures do you go and make special arrangements to accomodate? This becomes especially troubling when minority groups start demanding equal time where equal representation is not present. Any effort to legislate behavior is dangerous and troubling.

But on the other hand, a gender-neutral restroom, not just the single person kind, but an actual multi-person facility is kind of a neat idea. I think it could be taken one step farther and labeled a co-ed and gender neutral bathroom. This way, people who are uncomfortable with gender specific bathrooms, or people who aren't so caught up on repressive sexual issues and privacy can all find comfort in knowing there is a restroom of tolerance! 

The fact is, as difficult as some of these issues are, these are the true steps in social evolution. While I am generally opposed to legislating behavior, I see no harm in bringing a potential issue to the table. By doing so a discussion is started, and if we keep having these discussions, then maybe gender-neutral bathroom or no, maybe we'll discover a more tolerant world where, things and people that don't fit into the broad strokes of society, are still okay. Maybe the public bathroom wouldn't need to be such an awkward and potentially threatening place for some of us. If the majority of the University of Alberta find that gender-neutral bathrooms is a good idea, then it is probably good for them. If they did I would see it as a sort of victory, but I would not advocate demanding the same everywhere all the time, or worse passing laws to require it. If this University does add the bathrooms, then some other business or school may feel inspired to do the same, and that is the victory, watching change happen.

I'll be fascinated to see how this plays out, so if anybody is following this in the area, please keep us informed.

[Cindi Jones]

If there are privacy stalls in the restrooms... who cares.  Here in California, a husband may accompany his disabled wife into a womens' restroom.  I have no problem with that.  I've been to concerts where the women used the mens' bathrooms... There were stalls that maintained privacy.  And the men certainly didn't seem to mind.

I think the easiest thing that companies could do is to provide a restroom for one.  Outfitted with handicapped fittinsgs, it could server for anyone with specific needs.

Cindi

[Steph]

I've got to say I agree with what Steph is saying here. The notion of a transgendered bathroom is complex and raises so many issues.

On the one hand, like Steph said, where does it end? How far down the list of subcultures do you go and make special arrangements to accomodate? This becomes especially troubling when minority groups start demanding equal time where equal representation is not present. Any effort to legislate behavior is dangerous and troubling.

But on the other hand, a gender-neutral restroom, not just the single person kind, but an actual multi-person facility is kind of a neat idea. I think it could be taken one step farther and labeled a co-ed and gender neutral bathroom. This way, people who are uncomfortable with gender specific bathrooms, or people who aren't so caught up on repressive sexual issues and privacy can all find comfort in knowing there is a restroom of tolerance! 

The fact is, as difficult as some of these issues are, these are the true steps in social evolution. While I am generally opposed to legislating behavior, I see no harm in bringing a potential issue to the table. By doing so a discussion is started, and if we keep having these discussions, then maybe gender-neutral bathroom or no, maybe we'll discover a more tolerant world where, things and people that don't fit into the broad strokes of society, are still okay. Maybe the public bathroom wouldn't need to be such an awkward and potentially threatening place for some of us. If the majority of the University of Alberta find that gender-neutral bathrooms is a good idea, then it is probably good for them. If they did I would see it as a sort of victory, but I would not advocate demanding the same everywhere all the time, or worse passing laws to require it. If this University does add the bathrooms, then some other business or school may feel inspired to do the same, and that is the victory, watching change happen.

I'll be fascinated to see how this plays out, so if anybody is following this in the area, please keep us informed.

These are some of the very questions that we discussed madison and I will update my own interview as the results are published.

Should we have none gendered washrooms for everyone to use and how far would it go?  Within these washrooms would there be a need for privacy as everyone knows the reason they are used?  Some of the issues that I raised, and these are strictly my own issues, is that there is a big difference between female needs and male needs as far as washroom usage is concerned and although I can never experience menstruation I can certainly understand a females need for privacy during this period and I would support their need for privacy.  There is then the situation of children, quite frankly I would not want my daughter sharing any facilities such as washrooms or change rooms with males, period, so don't try to convince me otherwise.

It is a sad commentary on today's society but male violence towards women is well documented and I can also understand how a female would feel vulnerable being in what could be a compromising, vulnerable situation in the washroom for lack of a better phrase.  I only use female female washrooms and change rooms and I too would be very uncomfortable with a man using the same facility at the same time as myself.  Am I painting men with a broad paint brush?  Well yes I am but I guess it's the price paid for the actions of a few.  And yes it's not fair, but it's the way I feel.

Steph

[Sheila]

Being TG is not a lifestyle nor is it a choice, it is who you are. I don't believe that making a restroom for TG is very benificial. Leave it the way it is. If we represent ourselves in one gender and that should be the restroom that we use. I think that if you can not pass, then you should be as descreet as possible. In other words in and out as fast as possible. I also would not want to use and be in the same restroom with a man. I would think that a FtoM, would think like wise, not wanting to be in the same restroom with a woman. We all need our privacy, well most of us anyway.
Sheila

[madison]

Fundamentally I agree with just about everything you are saying Steph. My reference to the all encompassing uni-bathroom was mostly tongue-in-cheek.

Even with my mission of sorts to discover a truly androgynous identity, the idea of requiring more than two group accessible bathroom delineated by sex doesn't make a lot of sense. Regardless of my presentation I feel obliged to use the men's room. And while I might rather share the enlightened company of women in the ladies room when in any en femme presentation, I understand the points being made (even the one's I might consider a little extra paranoid ). It is sad how much decision making has to be made out of fear of the unknown and of what might happen. But c'est la vie, humans are not evolved enough for any more trust apparently.

However, I would stand by the idea, as a reasonable compromise of having a few single person ubiquitious restrooms. This would not only help in this scenario, but there are plenty of people who have phobia's about using public restrooms, not to mention people with disabilities that might feel more comfortable in a more private setting. And I'm sure there a lot more situations that we would benefit that I simply can't think of right now.

I'm glad that this is a topic of discussion, I just hope that proponents of the whole thing don't get crazy and create more frustration and animosity than such a topic deserves. As long it stays civil and nobody loses their head, this sort of thing creates more avenues for dialog where they are needed.

[Steph]

Being TG is not a lifestyle nor is it a choice, it is who you are. I don't believe that making a restroom for TG is very benificial. Leave it the way it is. If we represent ourselves in one gender and that should be the restroom that we use. I think that if you can not pass, then you should be as descreet as possible. In other words in and out as fast as possible. I also would not want to use and be in the same restroom with a man. I would think that a FtoM, would think like wise, not wanting to be in the same restroom with a woman. We all need our privacy, well most of us anyway.
Sheila

You are quite right that being TG is not a choice.  The word TG is strictly an umbrella term used to group CD/TV/IS/TS/ etc together.  Personally I don't agree that I'm included under this term as I am not transgendered, I have always been a woman.

Steph

[angelsgirl]

I wasn't really thinking in terms of TG specific bathrooms, actually. I was just thinking that if a TS student lives on campus and needs to use the bathroom (except for the handicapped dorm rooms, most have to use the communal bathrooms assigned to us by gender) and if they are going to be run out of both washrooms because they fit neither category, then there should be a unisex bathroom in which they can comfortably and privately make use of without suffering the abuse of other people within the bathroom. 

I have seen unisex, one-room bathrooms that anyone can use. Wal-Mart calls them "Family Restrooms". They are equipped with a changing table, and also are handicapped friendly.  Sometimes I will use them just for the extra privacy. I think that they are a great idea in general.

However, I believe that if you are presenting as one gender, that is the restroom you should be allowed to use. I don't think it's right for people to be arrested for being in what someone else thinks is the wrong bathroom for you. Until that is achieved, however,  I think it would be wise for campuses to have a single-room unisex bathroom with a shower that can be used by anyone.  Besides, it would help out some of the students that have true anxieties about being naked around over people, as well.

[Steph]

I wasn't really thinking in terms of TG specific bathrooms, actually. I was just thinking that if a TS student lives on campus and needs to use the bathroom (except for the handicapped dorm rooms, most have to use the communal bathrooms assigned to us by gender) and if they are going to be run out of both washrooms because they fit neither category, then there should be a unisex bathroom in which they can comfortably and privately make use of without suffering the abuse of other people within the bathroom. 

I have seen unisex, one-room bathrooms that anyone can use. Wal-Mart calls them "Family Restrooms". They are equipped with a changing table, and also are handicapped friendly.  Sometimes I will use them just for the extra privacy. I think that they are a great idea in general.

However, I believe that if you are presenting as one gender, that is the restroom you should be allowed to use. I don't think it's right for people to be arrested for being in what someone else thinks is the wrong bathroom for you. Until that is achieved, however,  I think it would be wise for campuses to have a single-room unisex bathroom with a shower that can be used by anyone.  Besides, it would help out some of the students that have true anxieties about being naked around over people, as well.

I agree.  Those TS in transition and in their RLT should be using the washrooms appropriate for their gender, i.e. MtF should be using female washrooms and FtM should be using male washrooms.  The unisex washrooms also work well.  But I'll draw the line that anyone has the right to pee whatever, where ever they feel comfortable.  But I don't thik anyone is saying that

Steph

[Shana A]

The thing is, if you asked these people if they could choose to be gay or transgendered, they absolutely could not.  Therefore it's not a choice.

The only choice we have in the matter is that we can either choose to accept who we are or not to accept it.

For the most part I dress male or unisex in daily life, and so use the men's room, even so I've often had men tell me that the ladies room is the other door. I'd personally feel much safer having a gender free rest room that I could use.

zythyra

[BrandiOK]

 

I don't believe that making a restroom for TG is very benificial. Leave it the way it is. If we represent ourselves in one gender and that should be the restroom that we use. I think that if you can not pass, then you should be as descreet as possible. In other words in and out as fast as possible. I also would not want to use and be in the same restroom with a man. I would think that a FtoM, would think like wise, not wanting to be in the same restroom with a woman. We all need our privacy, well most of us anyway.
Sheila

  I think gender neutral restrooms are a great idea.  In many states in the U.S. you can be arrested and jailed for using a restroom that does not match your "physical sex".  I know that many of us believe that we pass so well that nobody is going to think twice but that's just not realistic for most TS.  Very few TS pass so completely that nobody will ever clock them.  It just takes one person to notify a store manager and say "I think that person is a man and they were using the womens room" to bring potentially traumatic and/or legal attention upon them.   I don't think the ability to be able to use a public restroom should be defined by whether you pass well enough to get away with it or not.  Let's face it...we all have to go potty and often it means having to use a public restroom.  Nobody should be made to feel uncomfortable or risk legal actions against them simply for performing a basic human function.
 
  I see absolutely nothing wrong with having a restroom for males, one for females AND one that is open to anyone who doesn't feel comfortable using the previous two choices.  I pass well enough that normally don't get second looks but it does happen and honestly it probably happens a lot more than I notice.  On one hand if I were to try and use the mens room there would most certainly be problems but on the other hand if I use the womens room and someone says something then I'm going to be arrested.  I absolutely HATE having to use a public restroom because there is always the chance I'm going to walk out to a police officer who wants to verify my sex.  It hasn't happened yet but it's a very real possibility and that is not right.   

   

 

[angelsgirl]

Brandi, I whole-heartedly agree with you.  I have to accompany my poor baby in and out of the public restrooms should the need arise and on one occasion she was actually questioned by some rude old wench right in front of me!  And she was manly enough herself to give John Wayne a run for his money!  Well, that's an entirely different story altogether, but a unisex option definately would've helped in that situation!


EDIT: Karen - formatting

[Melissa]

I have to accompany my poor baby in and out of the public restrooms should the need arise and on one occasion she was actually questioned by some rude old wench right in front of me! 

What became of that?  Did Jocelyn get read or did you 2 get out of it?

Melissa

[angelsgirl]

Yeah, the poor girl got clocked! Which was a shame because her makeup never looked so good as it did that day!

That old hag actually said "No offense, but you kinda look like a guy." Jocelyn didn't say anything (her voice needs some training up) and then the woman stared at her crotch and said "yeah, you are, aren't you?"  I was so shocked that I couldn't speak (imagine that!) and then we left. Nothing else happened because of it, but it really almost ruined our day in Montreal.

[Melissa]

Ouch!  Sorry about that.  Being made does suck.  Now I don't mind anymore, my voice is good enough, plus I have a license to prove I'm female.  Also, how could she tell about Jocelyn just by looking at her crotch?  I mean I can wear tight jeans and you still don't see anything.

Melissa

[angelsgirl]

It's very slightly noticeable. And I don't think she's able to stand with her legs all the way together, so that might be a tell, too, but I'm not really sure because I'm technically a biased party (i.e. I know, therefore, I might tell a bit more than other people).

I'm not even sure if that really gave it away. She looked, but that doesn't mean that she saw. I'm pretty sure it was the horrified silence from both of us that gave it away.  Hey, it was either that or I was gonna deck her. I didn't feel like being arrested outside of the U.S.

[Hazumu]

On my recent trip to Portland, I was very appreciative the Sacramento airport had disabled toilets, for just the reason being discussed.  I know damn good and well I don't pass that well, and didn't want to run the risk in either single-gender restroom.  (Don't worry, I know my ability to pass will improve over time.)

I haven't seen this book mentioned in this topic, though I think a link is posted somewhere else on Susan's -- Peeing in Peace.  I e-mailed a copy of it to my bosses when I came out to them at work.

Too bad TS/TG's need to have a special bathroom...

Karen