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Passing. How important is it to you?

Started by madison, November 06, 2006, 06:32:33 PM

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madison

Given that not all of us here are necessarily seeking SRS, but all of us deal with issues of gender, I was wondering for those that ever wear clothes opposite of their birth-sex, how important passing as the sex you are presenting as matters to you.

I understand that for most of the pre-op transexuals this is probably a moote point. But considering the wide array of people here, ongoing discussions of the meaning and implications of gender, issues of living stealth or in the closet, and so on, I thought it would be interesting to hear from the community at large about their personal thoughts on passing. It might be helpful for all of us if you could also indicate your transgendered status.




For me, identifying as an androgyne, I am never trying to hide my birth-sex. Instead, I am attempting to build a personal wardrobe and presentation that reflects my gender-shifted existence and worldview. Personally, and I know I am not alone, think men can easily appear sexy and even masculine in feminine style clothing. One Rolling Stone issue with Brad Pitt modeling some pretty amazing dresses comes to mind. And even when pushing the envelope of cross dressing, much prefer to find some male version of my feminine self, instead of trying to become aesthetically a woman.

Thus, passing is a non-issue, and if anything, the assumption by people that I should be trying to can be very troubling for me.




I would love to hear your personal thoughts.
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Melissa

Passing is probably more important to me than it should be.  However, I am very unique looking, so if people knew I was TS, then they probably wouldn't forget.  I had 1 day where I went into 3 separate stores and had 3 clerks remember me.  I don't know if they remembered because they read me or just because I am unique looking, but it was eerie.

Melissa
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Shana A

There was a time in which being able to pass was important to me, but I ceased to care about it. I'm going to live where I am comfortable on the gender continuum, people generally see what it is that they want (or are able and ready) to see.

zythyra
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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Sheila

Passing to me has had its ups and downs. I know when I first came out I had to pass no matter what. It was first on my list of things to do. Now, that time has passed and I have been post op for over two years, I have really not taken that much time to think about passing. I feel that I do pass. I put make up on in the morning then its jeans and a nice top. I really don't have a glamorous job, driving a bus. I really can't wear skirts that much, I do every once in a while, but they are a hindrance. When I go out in my jeans, I get respect from everyone I come in contact with. So, trying to pass is not really on top of my priority list. I'm a woman and I live my life as a woman and not a TS. I'm not stealth or anything like that, I'm just a woman and I'm in love with this concept of mine.
Sheila
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Kate

At the moment, the ability to pass in the future feels like a matter of life or death to me. Understand though, I'm not there yet. I'm still a work in progress, in the earliest stages, still living as a male, so it's not an issue yet for me.

But the *fear* grows every day as I walk into that future, not knowing how to survive it, painting it with my insecurities rather than my hopes.

I AM aware though that the person who arrives there will be different, changed. I'm so insanely unstable and emotional these days, I just have no clue who that woman will be in the end, and what context she'll bring to that new life.

I have hope. Well, my friends will tell you I have hope, then I'm dispairing and darn near suicidal, then laughing, then crying, then BOTH (really, really messy), then optimistic how great things will be, then crying my eyes out, then...

And that's just during a commercial break of Battlestar Galactica.

So for now, in my unstable, fearful state, passing is absolutely critical to my survival. But I'm gambling that the journey will change the traveller by the time she arrives.
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tinkerbell

Quote from: Sheila on November 06, 2006, 10:49:37 PM
Passing to me has had its ups and downs. I know when I first came out I had to pass no matter what. It was first on my list of things to do. Now, that time has passed and I have been post op for over two years, I have really not taken that much time to think about passing. I feel that I do pass. I put make up on in the morning then its jeans and a nice top. I really don't have a glamorous job, driving a bus. I really can't wear skirts that much, I do every once in a while, but they are a hindrance. When I go out in my jeans, I get respect from everyone I come in contact with. So, I'm a woman and I live my life as a woman and not a TS I'm a woman and I live my life as a woman and not a TS. I'm not stealth or anything like that, I'm just a woman and I'm in love with this concept of mine.
Sheila

Hi Sheila;

QuoteI feel that I do pass.

Yes you do.  But honestly, do you think that people will treat you the same if you didn't pass?  In my situation, I really don't think people would respect me or take me seriously as a woman if I did not pass.   Just my thoughts.

QuoteI'm a woman and I live my life as a woman and not a TS

Most of us try to live life as women and not as TS.  If we lived our lives as a TS, then it really wouldn't matter whether or not we pass.

Quotetrying to pass is not really on top of my priority list.

Right!  ...and this is because you said:

QuoteI feel that I do pass.

and you also said:

QuoteI know when I first came out I had to pass no matter what. It was first on my list of things to do

...so all of us go through this "want to pass no matter what" mood...the difference is that some of us worry about it for a bit longer than the rest.  Eventhough we feel we pass, we want to make sure that we pass 100% of the time (although realistically this is impossible but we try nonetheless ;D), especially if we live in a very conservative area and work for a conservative employer.

QuoteI'm not stealth or anything like that, I'm just a woman and I'm in love with this concept of mine.

I am a stealth woman (...and plan to be forever), and I am also in love with this concept of mine, for I don't think that trying to live your life in stealth makes anyone less of a woman, it only makes you a cautious woman. (...of course some will say that we are paranoid, oh well, we can't make everyone happy as you well know.;))


tinkerbell :icon_chick:

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madison

Everyone who has posted so far, thank you. I know this area of discussion has probably been gone over so many times, and for once I'm not even really looking for a discussion. We learn so much by knowing and understanding other peoples lives. And I thought it might be informative for myself, and especially new people as they discover the site to hear some candid thoughts on some of the common issues we all deal with in one way or another.

In fact, reading the responses so far, I've learned a little more about myself, since starting the thread. I previously stated that passing was a non-issue for me, and I realize now in the mirror of some of the statements made here, that is not actually true.

It is true, I don't care about passing as a real woman. And personally, I don't care that I am a man who likes to present in various levels of femme, EXCEPT when I am judged for it. Like Tinkerbell's wonderful statements on how much time, money, and trouble TS's go through to complete the transformation and the reason's why, I too feel a pressure to meet a standard, even if it is an undefined standard based on my own vagaries, and the dictums of the fashion police.

The following examples are all referring to something I would wear out and about town and irrespective of what I am comfortably wearing around the house alone or among close friends. If I I want to wear a pair of capri style jeans (female) with a dress shirt, dress tennis shoes, etc.. (male), I do so without hesitation and without real regard for if it presents masculine or feminine, as long as I feel as though it is a worthy outfit. If I am going to wear a skirt in the same genderbent manner, I take a bit more concern to make sure that the outfit is stylish and really works. And when I begin to cross the line, still genderbending, but in nearly all female attire, the farther towards total cross dressing I get, the more concerned I become with whether the ensemble, the presentation, actually complements me, my figure, enhances my appearance in some way, is extremely fashionable. The more I cross the line of gender appropriate presenation the more I concern myself with every little detail to ensure that, despite being surely misunderstood by the public at large, at least they won't be able to critique the presentation itself (only the act of doing it if they have a problem).

Generally if something I'm wearing is women's clothing, but something a man would wear in a different style or cut, I am completely unphased by presenting as man, stubble, less concerned about my gestures and movements (which are already somewhat effeminate and dare I say refined :) ). However, moving into women's only clothing like skirts and dresses, and more so as the "femininity" level rises, I find it necessary to start adding more feminine accessories, adding some makeup, smoother skin, no stubble, rounding out the entire ensemble. I'm still a guy in a dress, but I still need to somehow live up to the expectations of what it means to utilize the symbols of the feminine gender.

Thus, I am concerned about passing, just not passing like I thought when I started the thread.

Thank you all so much for sharing (some of you for the umpteenth time). But surely we continue to grow and new people come on board and the dialog can evolve as does our lives.
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cindianna_jones

For two years, it was the thing that consumed me before I started my RLT.  I had to pass before I continued down the path.  I could think of nothing else.  I fussed with my hair, makeup, clothing, and all the mannerisms.  I know that I became very good at it.

For years after my change, I continued working on my appearance.  I would have custom business suits made.  I had a pair of shoes for every outfit and at least 10 handbags. I would only wash a pair of hose a couple of times before I'd wear a new pair.  My hair was perfect when I went to work and when I came home, my makeup was still flawless.  My nails were impeccable and real.

Now, I live in the country.  I only see people once a week.  Things are a lot more laid back here so I've become less stringent in what I wear.  It only takes a handful of ham to impress the dog after all. ;)

Must I pass now?  I could care less.  However... if I started getting a lot of negative feedback, I'd soon get paranoid.  I really don't even think of it until I take a step into the forum here.  Yes, the topic has probably been discussed ad naseum.  But here's the thing..... there is a great turnover here.  Once people get on with their lives, they move on.  New people take their place.

It is alway appropriate to ask any question that is on your mind. ALWAYS!
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madison

Thanks Cindi. You are the strong sassy woman I would want to grow up and be! Good night.
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Sheila

I know that most of you have never met me and don't know what I look like only in the picture. I have done a lot to make myself passable. It has only been time that has made me feel passable. I have seen pictures of a lot of you on here and you all look very good. I know that it takes time for you to figure it all out and it takes practice and just going out. You get use to it and when some one looks at you and you think they have read you or maybe they have you get use to it and don't pay any attention. I know it is still in the back of you heads, but you let it go. There are days that I just can't get my hair to do what its suppose to do or that I feel fatter than usual. Maybe I see something in the mirror that I didn't notice before and the passing is questionable. I go out and the people look at you the same way then alls better with the world. During your transitioning period you really go through phases and even after surgery, you are not 100% there. It just takes time.
Sheila
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Louise

I am an androgynous CD.  Passing can be important to me, but it is not the most important thing.  A lot depends on the situation.  When I dress en femme at home and only my wife sees me, passing is not at all important.  I do care how I look and it always makes me feel good when my wife complements me on how I look, but I know that I do not pass and it doesn't matter.  When I go to a TG support group and am seen only by other members (both TS and CD), then passing is still not very important, but it is more important to make a more feminine appearance.  The only time passing is important is when I go out in public en femme.  Since those occasions are relatively rare, I do not really worry about passing.  Even when I go out in public wearing a skirt, passing is not the most important thing.  The most important thing for me when I present as a woman in public is my personal safety.  Avoiding public ridicule is important, but not as important as my safety.  As long as I can pass well enough not to draw so much attention to myself that it either treatens my safety or makes me open to ridicule that is good enough for me.
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LostInTime

I find that it depends on the situation.

Day to day, as long as I do not look like a train wreck I am fine.

Meeting new people, it matters to me and I try to go all out in looks and limit speaking because I am conscious of my voice.  that is in spite of the fact that even on the phone I am called Ma'am or Miss.  Even when calling on accounts that still have the old name on them.

So most of the time I do not stress over it but there are times where it is important to me and I am okay with that.
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Julie Marie

This is something I have debated with myself over and over.  On one hand I know if I passed easily I'd love it.  No hassles, no funny looks, no fear of being ridiculed or worse, being beaten or killed.  I'd just be accepted as a woman.  It's a nice neat package.  But on the other hand I know the realities and know I will get clocked.  So I find myself taking the attitude "It's their problem, not mine." 

My family will never let go of Jim.  I will always be a he to them.  But after all the hormones, voice lessons, electrolysis and surgeries, if I looked like a natal female they just might come around and accept I was born with a birth defect, not a mental disorder.  "Passing" with them would be wonderful but not all important.

The importance of passing isn't as simple as saying "Yes it is" or "No it isn't".  I have to take into consideration my physical attributes and work with that.  From there I have to decide what the odds are of getting clocked.  If they are high then I can't place a lot of importance on passing.  If they are low then I can focus more on trying to pass.  I just don't want to get so wrapped up in it I forget to live life.

All that considered what I'm finding is I'm not a girly girl.  While it's great to get all dolled up once in a while, I have no interest in spending all my time worrying about my looks, which can affect one's ability to pass.  I'd rather be shooshing down a mountain, playing 18 holes or feeling my sailboat cut silently through the water.  That to me is what enjoying life as a woman should be. 

I'm already prepared to live a life as a transsexual woman if necessary.  That means passing or not won't break me or even cause me much concern.  Only when my physical well being is threatened will it be a problem to me.  And, I feel as time goes on, I will get comfortable in my new life and passing will just come naturally.

Julie
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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melissa90299

Passing is essential to me. That is why I am (well actually we because my bf is helping me) spending another 14k to have Dr. Ousterhout do my jaw and chin even though I already pass 99%. Of course, being in sales, my appearance is essential too and since FFS my sales have increased about 25%. With that kind of return, I will get back my investment in a couple years. Besides monetary rewards though, the self-esteem that comes from constantly hearing "miss, maam, and she" several times a day is indescribable. Even better is when GGs are jealous of you.

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tinkerbell

Quote from: Melissa90299Passing is essential to me.  Besides monetary rewards though, the self-esteem that comes from constantly hearing "miss, maam, and she" several times a day is indescribable.

I concur with you, Melissa.


Quotebetter is when GGs are jealous of you.

sooooo true! They always are......*giggles* :icon_evil_laugh:



tinkerbell :icon_chick:
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Elizabeth

Passing is of little importance to me. Mostly because I am not that passable and don't see a time when I will be. But more importantly, if I care about passing, that means I have to care what others think and if I care what others think, I am giving them control over me. I would have to care about negative critisism also.  This whole transsexual thing has never been about anyone but me. About how I feel about my body and my gender.  I present myself as a woman, not for others, but for myself.  It allows me to feel normal and happy. If it bothers other people, it's really just too bad.

I have been dressing full time for 2 years and 3 months now.   I have never taken hormones, nor even officially been diagnosed as being transsexual.  I just know that being able to live my life how I see fit, in womens clothes, makes me happy.  This is not a real life test, this is real life.  I just can't wait until I can afford therapy, hormones, and SRS to begin my life.  If passing were to be important, it would require me to put my life on hold again.  I am just unwilling to do that.

Love always,
Elizabeth
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Sheila

Elizabeth,
   I think you said what I have just said but better. I don't know you and I have never seen you in real life, only the picture that you have, but I believe that people see you as female and most don't even give you a second look and if they did you probably didn't even notice. Hormones and surgery is not a prerequisite to live your life the way you want. That is all up to you and your choices. For me and from what you say, hormones and surgery to correct my deformity was what I needed. I didn't want any other corrective surgery like facial or breast implants. I'm happy for you.
Sheila
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brina

Hiee,

  I find that I am no longer really concerned with passing. I have been living full time 24/7 now for a bit over a year and a half and before that full time except for work for another 2 1/2 years or so. At first passing was important due to fear of what might happen if I did not pass. Now I simply live as my true gender and am accepted as being female for the most part. I get 'Read' on occassion but it is no longer a big issue as I expect that will be the way that it will always be. Transitioning was and is always about being who I have to be and not what someone else thinks I should be. I find even at work that the 'Boys' are coming around to accepting me as a 'She' which is really something as I work in construction as a tradeswoman and it tends to be somewhat of a macho environment. I will say though that I can't wait to have my Final SRS which will allow me to be able to use womans change rooms etc and partake of those activities requiring the same :).

Byee,
  Brina
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katia

how important is passing to me?

[very important]

if i weren't able to pass, my life would be a total pandemonium because people would see me as an [imitation] of a woman, and thus i wouldn't be taken seriously.
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Rachael

Passing is vital for me, and i know i have issues to work out regarding it, but i wont be happy till i do. because only when i do, can i live MY life. im a girl not a label ;)
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