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Passing. How important is it to you?

Started by madison, November 06, 2006, 06:32:33 PM

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Rachel

I wish to pass well, mainly because i dont want to be thought of as TS to the people around me, because that leads to bad thoughts on their part.  I would rather be seen as human, and female at that, so that the majority of society will just leave me alone.  I think my biggest obstacle is my adams apple.......
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purpleamy

I've had a few perspectives on passing as my gender identity has evolved. To be fair, passing, though not quite in the sense you mean, started at 5 or 6 years old when I, due to childhood stresses, was forced to conform my behaviors to what my family expected (a boy) and subvert many of my natural feelings. Playing that part as well as I could kept me alive, I do believe, and I can't help but be grateful that I found a part of me that could get through that part of my life. Pushing the rest of me deeper into to the subconcious, however, meant that some internal fracturing had occured, and that the part of me who was present for my childhood grew largely independent of much of the rest of my self.

When I initially began accepting my female self around 19 (after years of severe depression) passing was important to me partly because I wasn't emotionally strong enough to withstand critisism. I needed external validation to help support my internal sense of self, which isn't to say that anyone else could know who I am, but simply that knowing people did percieve me as female helped me ground my identity in the reality of existance as a woman.

As I grew more comfortable with myself as a whole, and got past inital anxieties about my being (as I percieved at the time) a transsexual, I found that in my case absolutely no one had any question about my gender, which I primarily attribute to some particularly fortunate genetics, as well as begining estrogen around 20. By this point, passing became something I put a little effort into. My attention in the realm of appearance shifted to notcing the imperfections in myself and trying to bring my appearance into line with my internal vision fully, much as any person does, trans-* or not.

Along that transition path, I seriously considered SRS most of the time, but I always found some reason not to, usually financial, though I could have managed it if I'd really applied myself to the task. But as I started to finally accept after years of living as my female self, there was simply more to my gender than I was wanting to accept. For years, I had been working on the premise that the female self was the "real me" and the male self was a hollow construct - not "real". About a year ago, I started accepting that my male self might not have been, had my life gone differently, but it had become a very real part of me that I couldn't just discard when I stopped needing it. Following that path for a while has led me to my present sense of being bi-gendered, which is still under very active evolution.

And for Chris, my male self, passing is not easy at all. Those same femine features plus years of hormones have softened my face and given me rather large breasts, which has made it pretty much impossible for him to be seen as male. It's kind of funny, were it not uncomfortable (perhaps annoying is a better word) for him. But along the way, we as a whole have grown stronger, and neither of us feel as sensitive to what others think. Today, we seriously look at finding ways of expression that are comfortable for both of us, which I felt like an awfully uncomfortable idea when transistioning started 6 years ago. Still, I know he needs to find a way of being that people can identify as male, that he be seen for who he is.

As I look at things now, it'll probably be a few more years yet before I find the ways to "pass" as who I am as a whole. Part of that is wanting people to percieve me in a way that's congruent with my internal sense of self, part of it is finding comprimises that satisify my internal sense of self, and part of it is learing to let myselves express themselves fully too, to not feel contrained to one unified way of presenting. It's all another facet of that life long journey of discovering one's self, I suppose. :-)

-Amy (with a few words from Chris)
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Yvonne

if I couldn't pass as a woman, I'd just stay a man (or whatever) in a dress.  I wouldn't like people to ridicule me or make fun of me.  we live in a society that doesn't accept men "who try to pretend to be women."
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Attis

I tend not to pass, but I feel comfortable about it anyways. I think for me, it's just a fact of life, but I would prefer to pass for just safety reasons. I've learned most people are cowards in public and often don't dare to insult or assault me, but if they can get me into a corner as it were, then they'll try. Often I bite back and they look shocked as if they are owed the right to act vile toward my person. Go figure. :-/

-- Bridget
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Lyric

This issue of "passing" is a double edged sword. What we want is to be comfortable around strangers and acquaintances in public. Being comfortable for us means A. Feeling as our desired gender and B. Having others be comfortable with us as such. In a real way, I believe striving to pass is not only for us, but for the comfort of others. Most people become uncomfortable around persons who look too out of the ordinary.
On the other hand, people feel insulted if they decide you're "not what you seem" and feel they were fooled.
My approach is to always make every effort to look completely one gender, but be as sincere and real about it as possible. Know from within who you are and that you are in charge of who you are. People tend to respond positively to confidence.
"Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life." - Steve Jobs
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Attis

The problem I see with passing, even if successful, is the person who is trying to pass's responses. Lets take a typical scenerio of an MtF. Most MtFs are originally socialized to handle certain kinds of behavior, in particular looking. Males tend not to look at everyone else unless its a "good looking" female and especially not look at other males unless they are friends. So, if an MtF at anytime succeeds at passing, many will get the shock of looks from males, and the more friendly looks [as opposed to the generally 'submissive' or neutral looks that I've noticed females have toward males] from females. That can be a bit bewildering to be sure. It's like you sent a String object to another program, expecting a String object back, but get a long variable instead. :3

In my experience, if the passing doesn't work, it's not really that you get the same responses [oh it's a guy so continue guy responses...], rather I find a whole new set of behaviors emerge. Sometimes hostile, sometimes leary[sp?]. And that's the other side of that coin that can be iffier than just being bewildered by the social response/cue change, because non-passing is really something else entirely in that it opens a whole new set of social responses/cues. That's at least from my observations in my attempts to pass and from what I've read from many other TSes online [blogs, articles, and etc].

I've been tempted to go and do an experiment with some friends on campus to see if we can catalog all the responses for study. :3

-- Bridget
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tinkerbell

Hmmmmm...well, it's been months since I posted a response to this thread, and needless to say, my views on passing haven't changed at all.  I feel that in order to be accepted as women (from a MTF perspective), we need to pass as females first.  My opinion is that being comfortable with ourselves is an important factor; however, realistically (yes, I am very realistic) this does not do much in the kind of society we live today.  To put it bluntly and without offending anyone, if you look like a man in a dress, no one is going to take you seriously regardless of how comfortable or uncomfortable you feel about it.

tink :icon_chick:
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Kate

Quote from: Tink on March 29, 2007, 11:28:39 AM
To put it bluntly and without offending anyone, if you look like a man in a dress, no one is going to take you seriously regardless of how comfortable or uncomfortable you feel about it.

True, but not all unpassable TSs look like "men in dresses."

Sure, if someone is sitting there guy-style, out in a miniskirt and tube top with a week of beard growth, people are going to point and laugh.

But I've seen and read of many unpassing, yet female-seeming TSs who seem to be taken quite seriously. I'm guessing because they make it apparent through appearance and presentation that they take *themselves* seriously. They may not look like natal females, but they're far from being "men in dresses."

Obvously, not passing makes things more difficult. Some people will still poke fun, regardless of your confidence. And whether you're being accepted as a woman - or a TS - is going to vary per individual. But I don't think it's a hopeless situation where no one will take you seriously.

Kate
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Attis

That's what I think is interesting. It's not that the social cues go back to default when you're read [mtf/ftm], but that the cues get turned on their head for whatever reason. Like I get stares from guys, but I get greeted more friendly by girls 99% of the time that I am out as me [androgynous and etc]. And that makes me wonder if it's that people don't have a mental template to go back on when they notice either a non-passing TS/TG or an androgynous TS [I know a few, it's sorta strange, but what the hell]/TG [me, lol]. So I think it forces people to move out from their mental templates which allowed to autopilot their behavior [Boy, go to boy template. Girl, go to girl template. Boy/Girl?!?, send interrupt to console!!!]. And that can be dangerous in some instances. Now I haven't experienced any geers or threats of violence, but some of the stares of some men in the restroom have come close to, "Lets Rumble."

-- Bridget
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tinkerbell

Do you know what goes through the minds of people when a TS is read or clocked?  "she is a man" in other words "she is a man pretending to be a woman" or "she's a man dressed as a woman"...that is what I meant by my comment "man in a dress" ;)

tink :icon_chick:
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Attis

That doesn't explain the variation in the responses itself. Geers and jokes I can figure out, but the violence part is what puzzles me. All I can figure out is that people respond negatively as such as a means to 'normalize' the situation or whatever. Or possibly this could be version of the Scientology 'Fair Game' principle at work in random social situations.

-- Bridget
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Attis

Yeah, I think it shows on the moral fiber of such folks. I've seen this even with non-TG people. Whites staring at blacks and vice versa. I'm beginning to think that all too often people are told "society is the standard." Then again I've been digging through Atlas Shrugged, so I am getting rather 'Randish' about many issues. ;)

-- Bridget
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Kate

Quote from: Attis on March 29, 2007, 12:35:46 PM
That doesn't explain the variation in the responses itself. Geers and jokes I can figure out, but the violence part is what puzzles me.

The violence seems to come mostly from men, and I think THAT is generally:

"You look like a woman almost, but you're really a man? Oh god, what if I find you attractive now? That means I found a MAN attractive! Now people will think I'm gay! How DARE you put me in this position by pretending to be a woman! Now I have to do something really nasty to you so everyone will think you disgust me!"

Kate
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Attis

Yeah, basically, some men believe they are owed something. Just because I look androgynous or if an MtF/FtM is a little off in performance or look [e.g. the newbie TSes] does not seem to be a valid reason to hurt me or people in a similar situation like me. Like I got a friend who's TS, she looks 95% like a girl, but she does have one thing running against her: big hands. I still wonder how many times she's come close to getting into a scuffle over that, but I doubt she has since she tends to hang with a better circle of people [She owns her own hosting company so she doesn't need to work in the general public.]. Still, I get worried sometimes about her and others like her. :( Me, I just give the idiot a big thump on the head. :3

-- Bridget
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GQPAT

Yeah...I would say I don't pass very well...although I'm getting madamed more and more these days by store clerks and the such...but I just thought I'd throw in my $0.02 about the reaction to me by guys that I know and girls that I know!  Okay...so I'm a pretty dykey MTF...in other words I am a MTF with a strong attraction to gals!  Here's what went down at work last week that epitomized, in my mind, the reactions that guys have to me in comparison to the gals:

I showed up to work all dolled up because it was the first day that we had experienced spring-type weather in like 2 and half months...so I had a flowing kneelength skirt with hot pink leggings and a nice corset-style shirt on...despite this presentation I kept getting "Hey Man" or "Whats up dude" or "insert other guy-guy speech" from the guy coworkers...and at the same time this was happening one of my girlfriends invited me to an all-dyke house party and another coworker invited me to go to an event as part of a group called Womyn with a y!

So, all in all, I feel that even though I do not pass greatly the women in my life are more accepting of me as one of them rather than the guys who do not want to let me let go of the male privilege in my life!  They have to continue calling me dude because, as Kate said, they want to make it clear to EVERYONE that they are not attracted to someone like myself!

YEah just some thoughts

Cheers: Patty
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timberwolf

i remember two beautiful days where my my soul shone out of my body like the sun. i was relaxed when out and about i realised that no one was looking at me. as time went on on i was opeing up more and more and more. i must have got read because it all came collapsing down. for me passing i important
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Suzy

Quote from: Kate on March 29, 2007, 12:58:57 PM
"You look like a woman almost, but you're really a man? Oh god, what if I find you attractive now? That means I found a MAN attractive! Now people will think I'm gay! How DARE you put me in this position by pretending to be a woman! Now I have to do something really nasty to you so everyone will think you disgust me!"

Kate, I think you really got the right idea here.  I think most guys are so afraid that they will have to admit that they actually have a feminine side.  And so they put on the tough act, when in truth, they might love to trade places with you.

If I am to be honest, I also know that I do my best to pass because of my own fears.  I was recently in a store, and for some reason I felt the look didn't quite work right.  Know what I mean?  I'm not saying I was Max Klinger or anything, but what was usually a joyful freeing time turned into a miserable experience.  Perhaps I will one day get to the point where I don't care what anyone else thinks.  Some here seem to have that attitude and my hat is off to them.  I'm just not there yet.

Kristi
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zombiesarepeaceful

Passing means alot to me. I guess once I'm post-op it won't matter as much to me, cos I won't have anything to hide then. But for now, I'm hiding the parts I don't want to be seen until they can be changed. I know who I am but it matters alot that I'm not perceived as something I'm not, a woman >.<. I don't leave the house without binding, which makes sense to me. I'm not a girl so why would I let those parts show? It bothers me more than it should I guess, but I've come so far I don't want to be mistaken for a female again.
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Rachael

Quote from: Kristi on March 29, 2007, 10:18:45 PM
Quote from: Kate on March 29, 2007, 12:58:57 PM
"You look like a woman almost, but you're really a man? Oh god, what if I find you attractive now? That means I found a MAN attractive! Now people will think I'm gay! How DARE you put me in this position by pretending to be a woman! Now I have to do something really nasty to you so everyone will think you disgust me!"

Kate, I think you really got the right idea here.  I think most guys are so afraid that they will have to admit that they actually have a feminine side.  And so they put on the tough act, when in truth, they might love to trade places with you.


Kristi
I dont think thats neceserily the case... they most likely wont want to swap, most guys are very happy as they are. and its only insecure people who will care. the educated happy in thier self guy wont care, because they will realise your not pretending, or cheating, plus this view is quite outdated now, most people are more than ok with this thesedays... so far 99% of all people ive come out to have been totally fine... the other 1% didnt understand...
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debisl

Passing has been my focal point for so many years. I  mean no offence to anyone, but passing is a must. If you are going to join society as a different sex you better be prepared. If not you will be a lonesome person. Get with the program of what you want to become, and stick to it.

Deb
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