The differences between FTM and MTF transition

[Osiris]

I think some people don't understand the incredible vast divide between MTF and FTM people when it comes to transition. This leads to a lot of confusion when people from either camp try to apply their experiences to the other.

I think the main difference is our mindsets. Of course I'm not saying that this applies to everyone, we're all different and have our own issues with dysphoria and our own approach to transition. These are just my personal observations.

It seems that for many FTMs the gold at the end of the rainbow is T and top surgery. While for many MTFs the gold at the end of the rainbow is SRS (particularly genital surgery). This I think leads to the biggest hang up between both of us.

FTMs while I think for many of us you can't say we're happy with what we have, realize that no matter what surgery we get we will never have a 100% perfect penis. I think that many of us don't concentrate too much on the surgery then because ultimately we know it will be a let down. On the other hand from what I've seen a lot of MTFs spend a great amount of time concentrating on genital surgery.

Don't get me wrong FTMs do spend a great amount of time thinking about our junk and longing for a penis but we don't have that light at the end of the tunnel, the thing that means we will finally have it if we save up our nickels and get the surgery. Often we're trying to find some way to make what we have downstairs work. Or weighing our options to find out which route will give us some of the things we want and take away things we may not miss as much as others. It's a huge compromise.

Something that really capture the difference in mindset on this was when in chat we were all asked if you had to choose one, which would you get hormones or SRS. The bulk of the women chose SRS while the bulk of the guys chose hormones.

HRT is incredibly different on both sides. HRT gives a hell of a lot more physically to someone transitioning to male than for someone transitioning to female. Hormones can help guys grow something that can function and feel like a penis, they don't give a woman a vagina or take away what she has down there all ready. Hormones make our voices drop, they don't do a thing for a woman who has to learn how to feminize her voice. Hormones can give a guy facial hair, they don't take away a woman's beard.

The thing that contributes the most to a guy's transition is hormones, but that can't be said for women. This I think is the key in why we approach transition differently.

Personally, I relate MTF SRS more closely to FTM top surgery than bottom surgery. For many FTMs a huge amount of dyshporia is brought about by our boobs. They're the thing that's always there, that we have to try and hide, the thing that gives us away and is a constant reminder of our birth sex. I think MTF experiences with what they have downstairs is much more similar to that than to our experiences with what we have downstairs.

I'm not saying that MTF SRS is perfect and that there is no risk involved. Plus there are plenty of women who for whatever reason choose not to have it, just like there are plenty of men who choose to have SRS.

Honestly, I don't mean to generalize. Much of what I said up there may not apply at all for many. I know there are guys who forgo hormones, I know there are girls who get hormones and that's as far as their transition goes. We're all individuals and I'm not trying to put you in a box nor should you put yourself in one. But I see so many here butting heads because they don't realize that we're all different, and while we have some similar experiences you'll find many differences between us. We shouldn't judge one another for our differences or put each other into boxes.

[Flan]

It seems that for many FTMs the gold at the end of the rainbow is T and top surgery. While for many MTFs the gold at the end of the rainbow is SRS (particularly genital surgery).

I think the best link is boobs, the guys want to get rid of the lipid/fat/skin that makes up its shape, and in reverse girls want to add to. getting rid of the moobs is a huge validation to guys from both not having to bind and to socially integrate. after that, it's red death that is the constant reminder of birth sex. (female reproductive anatomy) T helps but is no replacement for hysto. The thing that contributes the most to a guy's transition is hormones, but that can't be said for women.

FFS is sometimes the thing that separates a trans women from "passing" and being a sore thumb visually, genital surgery for trans women is great for when nakked, but comes with rape risk that trans guys don't really have (especially after bottom surgery)

It's a huge compromise.

Something that really capture the difference in mindset on this was when in chat we were all asked if you had to choose one, which would you get hormones or SRS. The bulk of the women chose SRS while the bulk of the guys chose hormones.

my reason is for daily living reasons, a penis can perform sexually and urinate, a vagina does both as well as simply complete me, like getting rid of a permanently attached packie I never wanted in the first place. again, that's my opinion

We shouldn't judge one another for our differences or put each other into boxes. I know there are guys who forgo hormones, I know there are girls who get hormones and that's as far as their transition goes. We're all individuals and I'm not trying to put you in a box nor should you put yourself in one.

agreed

[FairyGirl]

we do have things in common- for one, with hormones we are somewhat going through each other's puberties, our second is like your first in certain ways and vice versa. We want exactly the opposite things but the common factor is that it's all what we weren't born with. And of course we both have to to deal with a public who at best barely understands our existence. Of course there are differences, but I think we can also focus on the similarities and help each other in those ways.

[Osiris]

You're very true Flan. MTFs do have to make a lot of compromises, and I apologize if my original post made it seem like I thought otherwise. I didn't really go into detail about MTF transition as much as FTM because I'm not traveling that road and like I said, while there are some similarities there are also vast differences.

I have definitely learned A LOT from the MTF women I know and I do think the reason we end up clashing over our differences is because we do see a lot of similarities. It's very easy to forget that there are things we don't see eye to eye on. That doesn't mean that anyone's wrong or right. We're all just different. I've seen on the boards and chat how some people make assumptions about others because they're doing something different in their transition, or not transitioning. The key is we're all individuals going down our own paths and we can learn a lot from both our similarities and our differences.

[spacial]

I've read your post twice now. I don't feel very easy with it and am trying to locate a middle ground.

I can only imagine, from what I've learnt in Susans, that most FtMs seek their male identity for a comparatively limited number of reasons.

Males play a dominate role in human society, their relationships with their peers, while very structured and hierarchal, is marked by camaraderie.

MtFs seem to seek a female role for a more varied number of reasons.

Many of us seek a more submissive, nurturing role. Some seems to seek a more fulfilling body shape. Some seem to want to be free from the disruptive effect of testosterone. Some seek a sister type relationship with women, even wives. Some seek to remove what is an uncomfortable and disruptive appendage.

I can immediately see an opportunity to apply some snappy labels onto this analysis but I'm going to resist it. Firstly, I hate labelling humans. It is demeaning to our dignity and locks us into compartments designed for one, not many. Secondly, I don't doubt, some may want to disagree with my assessment, exclude, modify or add to it. Thirdly, I don't want this to appear to be set in glass.

Many in the feminist movement of the 70s attacked men seeking surgical change of their sexual appearance citing the sister type relationship, they used the term, Castrating themselves to infiltrate the women's movement.

But I think I can see the the source of your frustration Osiris. The perceived inability to achieve a fulfilled male sex role as compared to an MtF.

That, sadly, is a mater of our respective biology. The male climax involves the brain, the endocrine system, the nervous system as well as the male genitals. This is one of the reasons I tried to gently scoff, in another thread, at reports of a surgically created penis.

But I really think we all need to understand that, what we are seeking to achieve, in reality, or ambition, is an alteration of our appearance to fit in with our aspirations.

I don't know if this is really very constructive for you, or even if I've missed your point altogether.

Assuming I was still in my teens and had the opportunities that are available now. I almost certainly would try very hard to get surgical alteration of my appearance. Especially removal of the ugly bits to prevent my body being deformed.

I can't say if that would have led to a happy life, that I would have found a suitable partner, I'm really picky. Would I have been safe, socially accepted, survived?

From your perspective, you seem to be conscious of the limited sexual response you can ever enjoy. The sudden climax followed by the release.

We are limited by the accident of our births.

[Janet_Girl]

Often many think that the guys have it easier with just getting a chest.  But it is still major surgery, just as GRS is for us girls.  Add in a hysto and it is just as much an attack on the body.

Hormones can do more for the guys than us girls as far as passing.  Masculining the face, deepening of the voice, facial hair.  All help.  But we all still face the problems of GID.  And no one can understand that better than another TS.

Do you guys have it easier?  No there are things that you do that we girls can not ever understand.  But vis a versa in the same respect. 

Hysto = Orchie
Top surgery = Breast Augmentation
Phalloplasty = Vaginoplasty

You say tom-a-to, I say to-ma-to.  Same thing.
Except you can develop those strong arms to hold on to us. 

How far we each go is personal choice.

[Osiris]

How far we each go is personal choice.

Right on sistah.

And I definitely don't want to start a debate over who has it easier and stuff. Transition is a hell of a thing for ANYONE to go through no matter which way you're going. We all have our own personal battles.

[Janet_Girl]

Transition is a hell of a thing for ANYONE to go through no matter which way you're going. We all have our own personal battles.

You said it, Big guy. 

[rejennyrated]

And then you always have to have the awkward one... 

who as my partner always says seems to have been born with a silver spoon in my mouth and an arch-angel for a guardian angel - either that or my guy has been doing a helluva lot of overtime to get me where I got... for example: Like F cup and no silcone, unbroken voice, only minor amounts of facial hair before I started, a family who accepted me openly from earliest childhood... etc

The only place I didn't luck out was in the hips - they widened a little but not nearly as much as they should have done to match the boobs. But then some of you guys have problems with the reverse so I certainly must not complain.

My partner says I cheated - I did Trans-Lite (ie without about 90% of the agro) while all she got was the legs and the hips! Mind you didn't she get the legs - It makes me shiver just thinking about em!   

[Silver]

I can only imagine, from what I've learnt in Susans, that most FtMs seek their male identity for a comparatively limited number of reasons.

Males play a dominate role in human society, their relationships with their peers, while very structured and hierarchal, is marked by camaraderie.

MtFs seem to seek a female role for a more varied number of reasons.

Many of us seek a more submissive, nurturing role. Some seems to seek a more fulfilling body shape. Some seem to want to be free from the disruptive effect of testosterone. Some seek a sister type relationship with women, even wives. Some seek to remove what is an uncomfortable and disruptive appendage.

I disagree. I am going reverse, not for fewer reasons. I seek a more dominant role, masculine body shape (that's a big one, causes me most of my stress), want to be free of the cloudy-mind feeling that comes with estrogen. Seeking a brotherly relationship with other males, maybe be husband at some point. And get rid of the boobs. Would like to experience sex as a normal male, but that's most likely not going to happen.

Although I do not seek to deny differences, there are definitely differences, but not those.

[Teknoir]

Secondly, I don't doubt, some may want to disagree with my assessment, exclude, modify or add to it

Respectfully... you betcha! 

I think the reasons for FTM transition are just as varied as MTF transition.

Everything you've said there could be applied to FTMs as well (with slight adjustments, of course).

Many of us seek a more assertive, logical role. Some seem to seek a more male body shape. Some seem to want to be free from the disruptive effect of estrogen. Some seek a brother type relationship with men, even husbands. Some seek to remove what are uncomfortable and disruptive appendages.

In my opinion, it often boils down to this - No matter the direction we travel it's a case of the right brain in the wrong body. Same-same. Anything more is down to the individual, and not the direction of transition.

Our paths are the same in so many ways, yet opposed in others. Similar enough to have some common ground, different enough to have no clue where the "other side" is coming from half the time

[spacial]

V

I disagree. I am going reverse, not for fewer reasons. I seek a more dominant role, masculine body shape (that's a big one, causes me most of my stress), want to be free of the cloudy-mind feeling that comes with estrogen. Seeking a brotherly relationship with other males, maybe be husband at some point. And get rid of the boobs. Would like to experience sex as a normal male, but that's most likely not going to happen.

Although I do not seek to deny differences, there are definitely differences, but not those.

I'm naturally pleased at your resolution, however, I'm a little confused about your claim to disagree.

Since you seek a male role, rather than that assigned by genetics,that would seem to confirm my point.

The only reason I was unable to list many reasons for genetic females seeking change is that, not being a genetic female and having little desire to be male, it isn't something in which I have a lot of first hand experience.

Moreover, My principal knowledge of FtMs is through Susans. I have attempted to do research on FtM in the past, but have been frustrated by the emphasis there seems to be on MtF.

I do apologise if you thought I was attempting to undermine you or limit the significane of your ambitions.
Post Merge: January 27, 2010, 10:57:54 AM

Respectfully... you betcha! 

I think the reasons for FTM transition are just as varied as MTF transition.

Everything you've said there could be applied to FTMs as well (with slight adjustments, of course).

Many of us seek a more assertive, logical role. Some seem to seek a more male body shape. Some seem to want to be free from the disruptive effect of estrogen. Some seek a brother type relationship with men, even husbands. Some seek to remove what are uncomfortable and disruptive appendages.

In my opinion, it often boils down to this - No matter the direction we travel it's a case of the right brain in the wrong body. Same-same. Anything more is down to the individual, and not the direction of transition.

Our paths are the same in so many ways, yet opposed in others. Similar enough to have some common ground, different enough to have no clue where the "other side" is coming from half the time

Thank you, in sincerity, for your clarifications.

As a seeker of knowledge, first and formost, I am more than pleased to have that and any more information.

[Marie731]

FTMs while I think for many of us you can't say we're happy with what we have, realize that no matter what surgery we get we will never have a 100% perfect penis. I think that many of us don't concentrate too much on the surgery then because ultimately we know it will be a let down. On the other hand from what I've seen a lot of MTFs spend a great amount of time concentrating on genital surgery.

If they did perfect F2M genital surgery, do you think F2M's would focus more on it?

I've always wondered how important it is to you guys, apart from the concerns over surgery results?

[Silver]

V
I'm naturally pleased at your resolution, however, I'm a little confused about your claim to disagree.

Since you seek a male role, rather than that assigned by genetics,that would seem to confirm my point.

Genetics hardly told me I was going to be feminine. I really think most of what behaviors I have that are feminine are due to being expected to act that way/being taught it's the right way and convenience due to physical femininity. There's really just certain qualities we attach to people who we only know the sex of and I'd rather be considered sort of "passively dominant." It feels like my place.

Point is: role is taught, and a bit of a welcome by-product of transition.
Post Merge: January 27, 2010, 06:03:16 PM

If they did perfect F2M genital surgery, do you think F2M's would focus more on it?

I've always wondered how important it is to you guys, apart from the concerns over surgery results?

I certainly would, at first I figured I'd certainly end up with a phalloplasty at some point. But seeing the results and their tendency to not really feel anything (most of the reason I'd do it, you know?) I gave up on it.

Just another one of those depressing things you have to try to get over. Yeah, it's pretty important to a lot of us (some non-ops here and there that don't care of course) but there's no sense in crying over spilled milk, you know?

[placeholdername]

I seek a more dominant role...

That part seems a little misguided.  Dominant to what?  Dominant to who?

[Silver]

That part seems a little misguided.  Dominant to what?  Dominant to who?

I mean generally being perceived as more dominant by others. Alright, not a big deal but it's there and it seems like part of the "male package."

[spacial]

Genetics hardly told me I was going to be feminine. I really think most of what behaviors I have that are feminine are due to being expected to act that way/being taught it's the right way and convenience due to physical femininity. There's really just certain qualities we attach to people who we only know the sex of and I'd rather be considered sort of "passively dominant." It feels like my place.

Point is: role is taught, and a bit of a welcome by-product of transition.

That may well be true. Equally, it may well be false.

This issue was discussed in another thread, (probably lots of others), and boils down to the nature verses nurture.

It's a circular issue and one which can only be resolved either by dogma or individualism. But, alas, yet another issue.

Of the list of your ambitions in #9:

I seek a more dominant role, masculine body shape (that's a big one, causes me most of my stress), want to be free of the cloudy-mind feeling that comes with estrogen. Seeking a brotherly relationship with other males, maybe be husband at some point. And get rid of the boobs. Would like to experience sex as a normal male, but that's most likely not going to happen.

I'm kinda please with myself that I managed to get 2 1/2 of them.

Males play a dominate role in human society, their relationships with their peers, while very structured and hierarchal, is marked by camaraderie.

I'm intertested in your experiences with estrogen. I hadn't realised it cause cloudy thinking in that way.

To what extend do you think that the erratic and iresponsible behaviour of many young girls, (not seeking transision), might be explained by estrogen?

And I really have to say that, if I were 35 years younger, single and had transisioned as I wanted to, I would be very interested in you. You are a very good looking young fellow. 



Post Merge: January 27, 2010, 06:21:03 PM

That part seems a little misguided.  Dominant to what?  Dominant to who?

It isn't a relative term. Males are dominant. Males seek their position within the male hierarchy in a position of dominance over other males.

[Silver]

I'm intertested in your experiences with estrogen. I hadn't realised it cause cloudy thinking in that way.

To what extend do you think that the erratic and iresponsible behaviour of many young girls, (not seeking transision), might be explained by estrogen?

And I really have to say that, if I were 35 years younger, single and had transisioned as I wanted to, I would be very interested in you. You are a very good looking young fellow. 

That's rather difficult, as I can only really compare my current behavior on ovulation to what I was like pre-menarche. I'll give it a go though.

So lets see, mostly it's just harder to keep track of things than it used to be, I have a harder time keeping track of lists and strings of numbers (maybe this is where "girls are bad at math" came from) A lot less motivated, I just feel sluggish. Have a harder time focusing. Don't see the answers right in front of me. I just think more slowly and the answers seem to be hidden from me. Frustrating, I don't like that at all.

I'm sure guys have a similar hormonal thing that leads to it. Really, excess sex hormones probably just cause the irresponsibility. Too much sex drive/aggression and not enough reasoning to hold it in check. Just a bad combination all around.

Oh and lastly, thanks

[K8]

Soon after I started hormones, I read a post by an FTM who was saying how wonderful it was to be on T and blocking E.  He perfectly described how I felt blocking T and getting E, and I realized that we (FTMs and MTFs) have a LOT in common.

I think more MTFs look to SRS because the surgical techniques are more developed than for FTMs. 

I wonder, though, if it has to do with our genetic background.  Male sexuality tends to be penis-oriented while female sexuality is more diffuse.  As a genetic male woman, I might think more about rearranging "the important stuff", or at least until the E really kicked in and I found my sexuality becoming more diffuse.  Likewise a genetic female man might still see his sexuality as more diffuse at first and therefore not concentrate as readily on his "parts".

I think I totally get the need for a guy to get his moobs removed.  I am looking forward to having my non-conforming external parts removed, too.  That I get a usable vagina in the process is like a bonus.  (Sorry guys. )

I have always been struck by how much we MTFs and FTMs have in common.  Sometimes as we try to escape how our bodies caused society to categorize us, we forget that commonality. 

(Remember the "Why would anyone want to be a woman when they could be a man" thread where we had fun with this?)

- Kate

[Osiris]

Those are great points Kate.

I'm enjoying reading everyone's views on this you all have brought up some good stuff to think about.