Convincing 'non-believers'

[oceanblack]

Note: New to the forum, so I'm sorry if this topic is in the wrong place, I just put it where I thought it fit best.

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I will admit this is all very new for me. I didn't even know there was a word for what I was until a little over a year ago, or that there were as many transgender people as there are. I just kind of thought I was some mentally screwed up deviant, and given the way people around where I live commonly talk about gay people did not help those feelings.

In fact, the problem I face as often (if not moreso!) as being discriminated against for being trans, is that they simply don't even believe the condition exists. This baffles me! They simply... Don't believe it is a real thing a person can go through.

"You have a penis, don't you? Then you're a man. Case closed."

That is the attitude I get a lot of the time. I don't know if this is commonly faced or not, but I decided to start my own topic on it.

So what I would like to know, from anyone interested, is what else I can say to help them at least believe I'm not flat out lying. I know I'll never convince every single person I encounter about it, but simply saying "I just know it, deep down," kind of becomes a tired answer. I can kind of see why they might be skeptical to that kind of response. At the same time, I don't want it to become a pity case and start crying every time when I try to explain how gender issues have traumatized me growing up either. I shouldn't have to tell them about nightmares or painful past experiences. I just want to be logical with them, but I can't even formulate the right words to reply with when they say things like, "You can't be a woman, because you are a man."

Any input at all is very greatly appreciated.

[Janet_Girl]

Unfortunately once people have their minds made up, you can't confuse them with the facts.

The only thing that you can do is stand for what you believe.  But when you get your gender therapist, you will have a diagnosis of GID.  Which is a recognized diagnosis.

"I have GID.  Case closed."  for now.

[oceanblack]

I know not everyone can be convinced, and people that hard-headed are not people whose opinions I care about. But there are people who I respect, and who still have respect for me, and I really don't even know what else to tell them.

I don't know if I'll ever go to a therapist. The few doctors I've tried to talk to (including my family physician I've known most of my life) pretty much refuse to help me. They don't think I have a disorder either. Hell, my physician wouldn't even approve it with my insurance to get my tonsils removed, and I cant even swallow properly they're so huge. Point is... I'm all alone in this, as far as my real-life interactions. That's why I want to learn more from others about how to properly deal with people. I cant just say "I have GID. Case closed," because that makes me no better than them. Sorry if that sounds cynical. I just... Don't know what else to do. :/

[justmeinoz]

If your GP won't think about a tonsillectomy, maybe you need a new doctor. Sorry, you definitely need a new doctor.   I would call that a failure of duty of care, and I would be taking my money elsewhere.

[oceanblack]

Well, I havent really ever gone to him for anything serious since then. I don't have many other health problems, but you're right, I dont consider him a very good doctor anymore. But that's getting off topic.

All I can tell people are things like "I've always wanted to be a girl," or "I only get aroused by thoughts that involve being a girl," but the latter is a little more graphic than I like to tell just anyone. I can't blame people for treating these comments with skepticism, because I am a skeptic in many areas of life as well. What I want to know is other ways I can phrase things when I talk to them. I'm not sure if I'm even making sense now.. I just don't know a lot of the technical facts. And reading about it online usually just leaves me confused because it seems like facts get mixed up from website to website.

Example: Im fairly positive my body has an XY chromosome, because it is physically male. But people define being a woman as having an XX chromosome.

So what do I say to that? Am I really just a man who wants to chop off his dick? I really don't want to believe that, but I don't know what else to tell people, like my family...

[Miniar]

The "you have a penis" crowd is easily dealt with.

"So a man is his penis? Does that mean that a man that has a horrible accident and looses is penis is no longer a man?"
This usually gets a "no.. he'll still be a man"
To which one can go "why?"
And then they usually bring up chromosomes.
"You know that there are women born with xy chromosomes all the time right? They aren't a 100% accurate a rule. They aren't entirely reliable."
Go on that for a moment and then go..
"You know that men and women have a difference in the brain though. The thing is, people like me, they are born with a brain that doesn't match their body, this has been observed and documented by scientists."

If your gender isn't your genitals, and chromosomes aren't reliable, the brain gender is all that's left to lean on.

That's at least what I used when I explained it to a friend who had a little bit of a hard time understanding that ftm's are men, and mtf's are women.

Subjective information, such as emotion, isn't something you can get other people to understand. No one can know your feelings as you know them because they are yours, not anyone else's.
Best you can do is try to get them to understand the facts.
If they're unwilling to do so, then they are willfully ignorant and really not worth your attention, nor the energy it takes to care what they think.

[oceanblack]

"Subjective information, such as emotion, isn't something you can get other people to understand. No one can know your feelings as you know them because they are yours, not anyone else's."

That is EXACTLY why I made this topic, thank you

There are women born with Y chromosomes? See, I never knew that. That's the kind of information I was hoping for. That would mean chromosomes aren't an absolute factor either. Very good information to have.

I have a friend who means well, but is just, well... stupid. Haha, I know it sounds mean, but he really doesn't understand a lot of things about people, and this is definitely a topic that confuses him to no end. The whole "If a man gets his penis chopped off, isn't he still technically a man?" thing would be perfect to say to him, more for laughs than anything. Because accidental maiming is hilarious. xD

Thank you again though, this is the exact kind of advice I was hoping for. 

[Miniar]

^^ Happy to help.

[K8]

You might try to find a support group in your area.  Being able to listen to other trans people talk about their experience can help you sort this out.

No one has asked me - most people around here seem to understand either a) I am doing this because I need to, or b) I am doing this because I want to and it isn't any business of theirs.  But I have told my friends that I tried for years to be a man and just couldn't get the hang of it.  Now I'm a woman and am doing just fine.  And if they've known me for a while they can see it for themselves once I point it out.

This is hard to explain to someone who never questioned his or her gender.  Good luck, dear.

- Kate

[oceanblack]

I dont even think there is a support group anywhere near here. The south side of Indianapolis is not a pleasant place for people of "alternative" lifestyles. The problems are money and transportation. Not enough of the former, not good enough form of the latter to go far. Thats part of why I'm so depressed and lost because I have a lot of unrelated life issues to deal with, like finding better work and education, piled on my gender issues, and I feel like I cant do anything about any of them.

I was part of a GSA group for a little while, the closest thing Ive found to real support, but then it got shut down, deemed "unnecessary."

Kinda getting off topic again, but as long as that doesnt get me in trouble, I dont mind. I did get some answers already. And thanks for the suggestions, theyre just... difficult to accomplish. Therapists, support groups... these all cost lots of money I dont have :/

[K8]

I don't know if this will be any help to you, but...

I, too, had a lot of issues to deal with that weren't directly related to my gender issues.  When I would get blocked working on one I would work on another, figuring that I would work on the blocked one later when I could.  It was difficult, because my natural tendency was to just curl up in a ball and withdraw.  But if you can be self-directed enough and can gather the emotional energy, then working on those other things will help in the long run.

I know, all this is easy for me to say but very hard to do.  It's hard to focus when you're feeling miserable.  This can be a tough life, and GID doesn't help in the least.  But keep chipping away at the mountain and sooner or later you will have sculpted a beautiful world for yourself.

- Kate

[SarahFaceDoom]

I don't usually engage people like that.  If they want to have steadfast beliefs about who I am, then that's on them, and their loss.  I'm not trying to convince anyone of who I am.  I just am.

[placeholdername]

I'm sort of in this situation with my parents (who I told a month ago yesterday), except that I'm not in a position where I *need* to convince them.  They think the GID 'symptoms' are a result of me not dealing with 'other things' when it's really the reverse.  But luckily they don't have a say in it at this point .

[oceanblack]

Well, SarahFaceDoom, I dont think you understand the point of this thread, no offense. But those arent the people I am talking about. I have no interest in convincing cynics and zealots of anything.

I guess what I'm getting at is... That I am fairly clueless about the topic. Like I've said before, I didn't even know there was a word for being transgender until a year or two ago. I just knew all my life that I emotionally identified with girls, and that being a boy made me unhappy, and as the years went on, I grew to despise my male body more and more. The problem is that I can't simply use this emotional basis to intellectually describe what I (and the rest of us here) are going through. I put non-believer in quotes for a reason; Its not about the people who are too cynical to accept our existence, its more about the people who dont understand, but can be made to, when enough intellectual data is made available to them. And if I can be someone to deliver that to them, then I have accomplished something great, IMHO.

[ffern]

i'm not sure how accurate this is, but havent there been studies that have shows that female and male brain structure is significantly diferent (something to do with a part of the male hypothalmus (sp) being more develped)  and as that that for MtF it is identical to that of a natal womans (which is somthing to do with  um , well all fetuses are by default female and the ones that will be male are introduced to certain hormones that change this at some stage in the pregnancy so if that cocks up  then yea) ..er sorry im not sure if that makes sence but essentially you can physically have a woman's brain and be in a male body (and i assume visa versa) . i wish i could give links but its only somthing i vagly remember, but hope that helps with any explanation (though if they're haveing trouble with geting past 'you have a penis so you must be a guy' then perhaps there isnt much hope for having the requiered intelligence in this area, but one can try  )

[oceanblack]

Even I am skeptical of a lot of that, personally, lol. I dont think men and women are THAT different psychologically (or physiologically), but thats totally off topic and I dont want to get into that. But I know what youre trying to get at. I just have trouble articulating it, ya know?

[ffern]

i have trouble articulating things myself alot of the time ( i liken it to pushing a cabbage throught a colander - its hard work, it doesnt look much like a cabbage on the other side, and most of it doesnt get through ) not sure how much help i can be with out that much first hand MtF experiance, but, its about as much a choice as being gay, but rather than being sexuality its gender, if you can get then to admit that the sex your attracted to isnt a choice, then having a gender of body different to that of your mind or whatever isnt to big a step to extrapolate.

though that said, the emotional basis shouldnt be discounted, that fact that you and others are unhappy with having a male body is a symptom that lends to the interlectual thingymabob er stance. empirical data and all that. 
um oh the best way ive heard it put is 'imagine you had malformed genitals?, wouldnt you want them put right?' over simplistic a tad 

(also to be tangential, womens brains are set up to work with female hormones and males to deal with male ones so that is one major physiological difference that could possibly affect the pyche [is that still a word?] )

er sorry if thats just random woffling, like i said articulating isnt my forte

[Alyssa M.]

Yeah, if anyone were to say that to me, I would think, "Case closed: you're an ->-bleeped-<-." I don't really feel any need do defend my identity. Besides a look of pity and dissapointment, the only response I would give would be to walk away.

[oceanblack]

Well first of all, I will NEVER end a conversation with a simple "case closed." I'm not that kind of person. I would only walk away without a discussion when I know the person is specifically trying to antagonize me, or is truly too stupid to ever understand what I am saying. It makes ME feel ignorant to just say "This is how it is, end of story, go away now." Like I said, I'm just not that kind of person.

Its nice to think that people care about our emotions, but we have to assume they don't, for the most part. Thats why I say you cant rely on the emotional base while trying to explain what being trans is like to someone. Maybe mention it as an additional note in why we get treatment and transition, but I wouldn't want to centralize it, ya know?

I want to reiterate that what I'm trying to discuss isn't necessarily defending oneself from antagonizers and zealots. It's partly about enlightening the ignorant who simply do not understand, but also partly about having your information prepared for a debate, because its bound to happen, even with people you care about. And debating should not be seen as a bad thing. It's just a matter of being able to convince someone to see things your way. A key to diplomacy and togetherness, IMHO.

[K8]

I recently visited my brother for the first time since becoming Kate.  It was all very cordial and he accepts what I am doing, but at some point I felt he was asking me to justify me becoming Katherine.  I had already explained that I had felt this way since childhood, and so forth.  I had never been asked to justify my transition and became frustrated because I couldn't. 

I explained that it is a naturally-occurring condition.  He asked how often it occurs and didn't like that the numbers I have cover a huge range because there are no good numbers.  I told him I had been in therapy for years and my therapist had never tried to slow me down.  He dismissed that.  I told him all my friends accept me as Katherine, but he felt that wasn't a very good indicator either.  I told him I've never been happier and feel very strongly that this is right for me.  I don't know that he found that convincing, either, although he is happy that I am happy.  I know he doesn't understand and worries that my happiness is only temporary – a surface effect that will disappear once the excitement of the transition is over.

To my friends in town – who have never questioned my transition – I have sometimes remarked that amazingly enough, despite my anatomy and my history, I really am a woman.  They just nod.  They can tell I am a woman, but they know me better and see me much more often than my brother does.

I am not aware of any physical measure that would indicate one is, indeed, transsexual.  We are because we say we are.  We are because as we transition we discover that we are comfortable with ourselves perhaps for the first time in our lives.  To me, transition is not about being happy but about becoming whole.  But perhaps others will understand if we just say that it makes us happy – happy deep in our souls.

- Kate