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So this is it?

Started by phantom_heart, January 01, 2010, 05:01:06 PM

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phantom_heart

So after 3 years of going through the processes...Finding out about Adrianna....Accepting that this is what was to be....Falling in love with Adrianna (or the idea of a female nick)... after all this NOTHING IS GOING TO HAPPEN. I`m pretty pissed right now so i`m going to use whatever term i want. NICK tells me that NOTHINg is going to happen that HE is going to stay male. That getting SRS isnt real. Its just a mask still. It wont really make him female. I`m in total shock. I`ve spent three goddamn years of my life trying to grasp this. Moved away from family and friends to help and now this. Now NOTHING is happening. He`s just giving up. And when i said no dont I want you to be happy. All i get is You dont understand. Drop it its done. And nothing led to this dission i just asked...so what do we do now. Do you wanna go to councelling ...do you want to start hormones online? I get a pause then a heavy sigh not dissapointed more like he has to explain something to a child kind of sigh and then he says i`m not doing anything. Its not real no matter what. This is the body i was boarn with and i have to live with that. No matter what i said that was that! (Thats Erica`s rant)


(Savannah`s rant)

I`m sorry if this is random and i`m sorry if anyone is affended by me not calling Adrianna `she and stuff. But if She isnt going to be a she then i`m not going to try anymore. I`m so depressed right now. I`m losing everything. If you know about my DID(MPD) then you know that I`m a lesbian well me as a personality no one else in this head of mine is. So now i`m completly alone. While everyone else can jump for joy i`m left completly alone and betrayed. All these promisses all the times i was with Adrianna and pushed her to do the things she wanted to do. All tossed back in my face. I dont like nick he`s lazy, inconsiderate and is a man. When Adrianna was fully dressed its like her whole life brightend. She was nice, happy, joyfull even. She looked in the mirror and smiled she laughed and joked and had fun. and now ..I have nothing. I hope this makes sence if not i dunno...i`m to lost to try and make it make sence.
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Maebh

Just a woman's prerogative to change her mind.  ;)
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tekla

1.  If you don't need to take extreme measures, then its a good idea not to.

2.  In the grand scheme of things you both are relatively young, and your still at a time when you're feeling your way forward, and there are a lot of things you try - perhaps even beliving in deeply - that just don't work out.

Just think of all the people who went to college, now think of how many of them are working in their major. (and at that they changed majors a number of times going through college)  Sometimes when we get deep into something it turns out that its not even remotely what we thought it would be.

And everyone gets to change their mind, its a human trait.   
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Just Kate

People only tend to get offended by things they've invested some of their identity into.  For example, have you in any way made public statements to the idea of being a lesbian, perhaps statements you might have to recant should you remain with her if she remains male?  Perhaps not, but it seemed reasonable that would be very hurtful.

From someone who has been in her position, I understand.  When I made the decision to stop, it was difficult on those around me too, the people and relationships I had formed as a female.  Some of them, mainly my TS friends, had vested interest in me staying with it, and it was these individuals who I found to be the least thrilled with my decision and some even took it personally as it seems you have.

I think if she is to develop the tools needed to cope with her detransition and subsequent attempt at "male" life, she will need your support, not your ire.  When I detransitioned I was miserable for a while.  All I could think of, even though I had excellent reasons to detransition, was what all I was giving up.  I kept thinking of all those people who were angry with me for my decision and who told me I was about to start living a lie, that I was just going to end up transitioning again anyhow.  It was miserable.  Many people commented on how much I seemed so happy and alive as a girl and how depressed I seemed to get when being male.  Seems to be a bit of what you are describing, but this is natural I feel.  Over time, I regained that zest and zeal for life, but I learned how to get it while even presenting as male, and that is an accomplishment I'm FAR more proud of than my ability to transition and pass as female.

I cannot say she will detransition forever, or if she is just in a low swing in her transition.  The swings do happen.  Occasionally something terribly demoralizing will happen, or sometimes we are just overwhelmed by the depression created by our condition and we want to resign ourselves to a life of misery and defeat.  If this is what she is going through, she will need your support too.

I'm sorry her decision has offended you so much, but obviously it was worth the trip to you, unless of course you were only with her for her being female and not for any other reason.  Only then does it seem reasonable that her decision has ruined anything.  I assume however you have stuck with her for these 3 years not because of what she is becoming, but because of who she is.

BTW, Adrianna, if you are reading this and want someone to talk to, feel free to message me.
Ill no longer be defined by my condition. From now on, I'm just, Kate.

http://autumnrain80.blogspot.com
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tekla

This has bothered me since I read it.
All these promises all the times i was with Adrianna and pushed her to do the things she wanted to do.

Really, if someone really wants to do something, then, in my experience, wild horses can't drag them away from it.  If you have to push, then perhaps it was not supposed to be, or at least, not supposed to be yet.  Because you only have to push when there is resistance to begin with.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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yabby

Erica,

Not every transgender person necessarily transition, only Adrianna/Nick now what is best for him/her.  Some know they are transgender but are able to live in the wrong body if GID is not strong enough.

if confused this is where a gender therapist can help. 

i heard that 50% of transgender that want to transition don't because of pressure from society and family.

myself it took time to accept myself and do something about transition, i spent a fortune on laser hair removal and i am already on Hormones but sometimes i wonder if it is better not to transition.

Not that i don't want to transition, but because the cost i'll pay will be huge when it come to family and my career.  If i can be happy without transitioning i wouldn't transition, I only decided to take the step to take HRT because i was breaking down non stop and i was afraid of killing myself or committing suicide.

Transitioning is  a very very hard step to take, and sometime it is better to take time to explore the different possibilities if necessary.
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phantom_heart

Thank you for all your insights.

I think the point i'm trying to make for myself is that what was the point? If i had to push if i had to have three years to accept this. Why are you backing up. I feel like i wasted 3 years. I can't handel a yo yo. I need to know weather he's going to do it or not. And goddamn it i want him to stick with a dission. its driving me crazy. He wont live without me he's already said that. So he'd chose to stay male just to stop driving me crazy but I want him to do what HE WANTS. I'm just want to move forward. One way or the other ya know? We dont have a lot of money so theapy is hard to find and where i live there isnt a gender therapist. I've looked.

*sigh* Someone I was talking to asked what are my boundrys to what i can accept. I told her I didnt think i had any and she said that was wrong. I'm way to accepting. I just let people walk all over me. I have no idea how to set up boundrys.
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Marie731

Erica, I know you're going through a lot yourself with all this back-and-forth, but please keep an eye on Adrianna. It worries me that she's closed off and won't talk about it.

I'm reminded of the tragic story of Mike/Christine Penner, someone who suddenly -and without explanation - detransitioned after a very public transition. It ended tragically.
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Janet_Girl

I went through the same yo-yo thing.  And for years I lived as a male and hated every minute.  Adrianna is scared and she is just doing what she thinks the world wants.

You love her and you love Nick.  Stand firm that you will support her transition and that you still love her/him.


Janet
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tekla

I think the point i'm trying to make for myself is that what was the point?

That question is the basic foundation for every religion that mankind has ever invented.  As such, the answer is way above my pay grade, except that I've never found much solace in any of the proposed answers.

My guess, and it's only a guess, is that he/she is still in limbo about the answer themselves and are still experimenting and probing.  And that seems to me to be well and good, the stakes are high and the changes are permanent so it seems at least prudent to really, really be sure before you go.  As Jerry used to sing:
Since it costs a lot to win, and even more to lose,
You and me bound to spend some time wond'rin' what to choose.
Goes to show, you don't ever know,
Watch each card you play and play it slow,
Wait until that deal come round,
Don't you let that deal go down, no, no.


Perhaps some of the native population was correct when they spoke of 'two-spirit' persons.  That some of us are not one or the other, but both, and if that's the case its a hella lot harder to find that balance in life then it is for people who simply assume some mistake was made that can now be corrected.

And I know well what that conflict is like, in so many ways.  Everyone wants you to be one or the other, to chose or lose - that is must be THIS OR THAT, never both.

The way I've explained it to people is to reference another part of my life.  I was (and still I'm I think) a very 'gifted' student.  (All that means is I took tests well).  I did very good in school.  Everyone (OK not all, my ability to piss people off in three words or less was a god-given gift that I've always had) love my papers, my writing, my tests and all that.  They assumed, and groomed me to go all the way.  They told me that to not use all of those talents would not just be a waste, it would almost be like spiting in the face of the Almighty.  So, ever trying to please people, I did just that.  And they were right, I did well, I won awards, I made Phi Betta Kappa as an undergrad and Phi Kappa Phi as a PhD and got my PhD with a combined GPA over all three degrees of 3.94.  Not too shabby.

On the other hand - because this is all about the other hand - I also demonstrated from a pretty early age that I had some mechanical skills.  Lots of kids take things apart to see how they work.  I was the kid that not only did that, I also put it back together and had it running better than it did before.  I rebuilt a car engine when I was 14 just to do something 'carish' before I got my license. I believe that I personally kept J.C. Whitney in business that year.  In 8th grade, when my parents refused to buy me the expensive stereo I was demanding, so I showed them, I built my own amp and speakers and was rocking the block until the police told me to turn it down.  I had a lot of people in my life who encouraged me in that path also.

So, now, in both parts of my life there were people who understood at least part of who I was.  They helped me and encouraged me (hell, I bet my parents spend more in parts building the speakers and amp then it would have been to just go out and buy it).  But they could never see 'the other.'  And, not just that, but they willfully and blatantly condemned the other.  The academic/school types were all about the mechanical/electronic stuff being 'common labor.'  That working with bands (I started when I was 16 - yeah, the band guys could make the instruments make music, but I could make all the stuff work in the first place, which was kinda critical to the process) was just 'an amusement' and a frivolous waste of my time and potential.  I should be spending my time reading Marcus Aurelius in the original Latin and not trying to make some car that I bought in a junkyard for $45 dollars run after I put well over $1,000 in parts into it (this are 1971 prices). 

And those guys, my father chief among them, who helped and encouraged me in the mechanical/electronic stuff always poo-pooed all of that school stuff as 'so much book learning' and thought most of it, if not all of it, was pretty much worthless in real life.  A guy named Cliff (now that's a macho name) who was my car guru when I did the engine deal, who ran some greasy run down shop close to my house and answered about a hundred million questions from me, always referred to it as (and I'm going to quote him exactly, because it's important) "rat->-bleeped-< knowledge."  And by that, he meant - as he told me many times - that whether or not the sun went around the earth, or the earth went around the sun, or if Mars was closer than Venus, or the other way 'round, didn't make a rat's >-bleeped-< worth of difference in my life, or anyone's life really.  And to be fair, he's pretty much right about that too.

I mean really, how much are all them PhDs worth when your stuck out on a rural highway in Iowa in February about 3am and your car won't start and it's below zero?  You could burn them to keep warm, that's about it - and at that, they ain't going to keep you warm for long.

But, then again, once you're all safe and warm back at your house, and sitting there wondering about the meaning of life and all that and why you should even bother, well that Marcus Aurelius guy can be pretty helpful all of a sudden.

I can assure you that when I was in grad school it made them almost livid that I wasn't going to teach some crummy summer class for them, but instead was going to tour. (And they were not exactly overjoyed when I got back with a bitchin' tan, sexually satiated, and more money in my pockets then they had in theirs.)  To be fair, I gave them a chance to match the money that touring would make me, and they never did.  (I should have paid attention at that point, but...)  And the people I toured with gave me no end of crap about the school thing.  They called me 'the professor' in a way that could not have been more derogatory had they used hate speech.

But I'm very sure that all that book learning stuff made my work much better, and I'm just as sure that doing the tour kept me sane and gave me the energy to go back and do the next 9 months.  So....

What do you do when have half the people in your life telling you that you should do 'thing A' and that doing 'thing B' would just be a waste of time, while the other half are saying the exact opposite?

All I could do (because I was determined if nothing else) was nod and passively agree with them and go on my own way and do both.  It was never about one or the other, I always intended to do both, as I liked both - for different reasons - and never quite got how everyone else was so set that it had to be A or B, and not both.

Why couldn't I work with the band and read Marcus Aurelius?  Did being able to pass algebra without ever studying (it just made sense to me, unlike Calc or Trig, which I never got) preclude me from being able to do real work?  Did working with my hands mean that I couldn't enjoy Jane Austin?

So, why can't Nick and Adrianna cohabitate the same body?  Surely you Erica, you above all people, ought to know that such things are both true and possible.  Perhaps he/she is both, and has no desire to kill one off in order to let the other out.

Perhaps it might even be a good thing, a powerful thing.  No doubt my dad shelled out major money to J.C. Whitney and Heathkit precisely because he was all worried that I liked to wear skirts, play with makeup and hang out with girls, and he thought that all that stuff would cure me. No doubt my mother put up with me basically disassembling a big V-8 engine all over her designer kitchen, and working with bands (which got me home at like dawn, if then, reeking of various strange smells) so long as I kept up my grades.

And maybe you're just going to have to wait and find out what the end path is.  I know that's hard, if not, as Tom Petty sang, the hardest part.  But I also know that being young and broke limits a lot of opportunities that may well change as the financial situation changes.

And, as the Jerry quote went, because the stakes in such things are huge, taking the time to decide, as opposed to just rushing in, makes a lot of sense.


P.S. - for the record, and not for Erica, I don't think there is any "detransistion" going on here.  Adrianna has not undergone therapy, HRT, or SRS, so she never went there in the first place, which makes it impossible to go back.





FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Marie731

Quote from: tekla on January 03, 2010, 12:50:43 PM
P.S. - for the record, and not for Erica, I don't think there is any "detransistion" going on here.  Adrianna has not undergone therapy, HRT, or SRS, so she never went there in the first place, which makes it impossible to go back.

Ah, didn't realize.

Still, giving up on a dream, on a chance, on "hope," is traumatic nevertheless - even if permanent steps weren't taken towards it.

I managed my way through many years by thinking, "Not yet." But no matter how hard I tried, I just couldn't accept, "Not ever."
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Maebh

Quote from: tekla on January 03, 2010, 12:50:43 PM
I think the point i'm trying to make for myself is that what was the point?





So, why can't Nick and Adrianna cohabitate the same body?  Surely you Erica, you above all people, ought to know that such things are both true and possible.  Perhaps he/she is both, and has no desire to kill one off in order to let the other out.

Perhaps it might even be a good thing, a powerful thing. 

And maybe you're just going to have to wait and find out what the end path is.  I know that's hard, if not, as Tom Petty sang, the hardest part.  But I also know that being young and broke limits a lot of opportunities that may well change as the financial situation changes.

And, as the Jerry quote went, because the stakes in such things are huge, taking the time to decide, as opposed to just rushing in, makes a lot of sense.


Not only Marcus Aurelius but even Cicero coudn't have put it better. :-)
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phantom_heart

Its just hard. I know its wrong of me to try and push her to make a dission but its not just her life that she's affecting and I just need to know so we can get on with it already. I understand where your coming from and i really do think in a way Adrianna has a little of what I have. At least she has a visable male and female side. Giving sides names makes it easer I should know. Adrianna needs names for my personalties so yea...Anywho. I also understand that mabie they can share. That would be fine. If that were the dission. I just want A dission ANY ONE will do ya know.
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tekla

Some of the hardest stuff in life is finding out that lots of questions don't really have answers, lots of issues don't get decided.

And I think that people who live in two-words, or who have two-spirits if you will, understand somewhere deep inside that doing away with one, winds up doing away with the other.

And the next time god calls me up I'm going to suggest an eleventh commandment, Thou shalt not have more invested in another person then they have invested in themselves.  Even if you are married to them - children are the only exception to that. 

And it concerns me that some of what you are saying is getting pretty close to ultimatum territory, and a significant number of ultimatums are resolved by getting rid of the person making the ultimatum.  It's a roll of the dice, and though the person making the ultimatum desires a certain outcome - say an even number - the basic rules of probability give the odds of that as no better than fifty-fifty. 
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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phantom_heart

Quote from: tekla on January 04, 2010, 09:29:18 PM
Some of the hardest stuff in life is finding out that lots of questions don't really have answers, lots of issues don't get decided.

And I think that people who live in two-words, or who have two-spirits if you will, understand somewhere deep inside that doing away with one, winds up doing away with the other.

And the next time god calls me up I'm going to suggest an eleventh commandment, Thou shalt not have more invested in another person then they have invested in themselves.  Even if you are married to them - children are the only exception to that. 

And it concerns me that some of what you are saying is getting pretty close to ultimatum territory, and a significant number of ultimatums are resolved by getting rid of the person making the ultimatum.  It's a roll of the dice, and though the person making the ultimatum desires a certain outcome - say an even number - the basic rules of probability give the odds of that as no better than fifty-fifty.

Good point. I don't want a choice to have to be made...I'm not that kind of person. I am the type that complains about it. Hopes for it. Then if it does come second guesses it. Looks for reason why.  Because I dont feel like its fair. I relize that this is a lot on someones plate. I know that. But its a lot on mine too. Plus I have my own...excuse my words but demons to deal with. Its hard for me to help someone with thiers if i can't handel my own. We'll see what happens, how this will play out. For now it seems nothing is going ot happen. But next week or next month I'm sure something will change. Its only a matter of time.
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Nicky

My feeling Erica is that this may be just one of those backtracks. When the obsticles seem insurmountable sometimes it is easier to stay in a rut and do nothing - I think this is perfectly ok and normal. But the internal drive will still be there and likely get stronger with time.

Maybe this is a time where you just need to sit back and take a break from thinking about trans things. Just enjoy your partner as they are now?

BTW, that Adrianna is one hot cookie. I know Savannah misses her Adrianna but I really don't think she is gone for good. She is still in there. You just might have to look harder to see her.
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Maebh

I don't know if this will help but. I don't know what Adrianna's motives or reasons are. Erica have you asked her? Does she even know herself?
Speaking about my own understanding of my TGism I will concur with what Tekla talked about. I enjoy my feminine side but my masculine side too. So why should I conform to society rigid division of gender roles and identity? Why should in order to be accepted and fit in the status quo sacrifice one for the sake of the other? I want to be able to experience, express, and enjoy both or either of them when and where I feel like it. Only when I  integrate both can I be truely me. I respect and can understand this is not everyone experience or desire. We are all unique and the TGism array is rich and varied. 
I'm not sitting on the fence there, this is not a comfortable position. Who says I can't belong to both? Who says I must belong to one or the other? Who can deny me my choice and has the right to impose theirs on me? Who feels threatened in their cosy certitude? There is a lot of integrism out there, and not only religious. You only have to look at the attitude of some gay activists to bisexuals.
This is all my little "grain de sel".

LL&R

Maebh
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kisschittybangbang

Holy spit no way?!

What's happening to what everyone thought "was reality." I really cannot grasp this! Adri/nick was so excited and happy last time we talked!

It seems like everything is slipping and (s)he isn't the only one giving up.

Idk... Best wishes to you erica dear.
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Ms Bev

Quote from: ~Erica~ on January 01, 2010, 05:01:06 PM
......So after 3 years of going through the processes...Finding out about Adrianna....Accepting that this is what was to be....Falling in love with Adrianna (or the idea of a female nick)... after all this NOTHING IS GOING TO HAPPEN. I`m pretty pissed right now
......NICK tells me that NOTHINg is going to happen that HE is going to stay male. That getting SRS isnt real. Its just a mask still. It wont really make him female. I`m in total shock.......Now NOTHING is happening. He`s just giving up.
......so what do we do now. Do you wanna go to councelling ...do you want to start hormones online? I get a pause then a heavy sigh not dissapointed more like he has to explain something to a child kind of sigh and then he says i`m not doing anything. Its not real no matter what. This is the body i was boarn with and i have to live with that.

......I`m so depressed right now. I`m losing everything......I`m a lesbian ....now i`m completly alone. laughed and joked and had fun. and now ..I have nothing. I hope this makes sence if not i dunno...i`m to lost to try and make it make sence.



Yes.....I think it makes lots of sense.  Many of us hide when we become depressed.  It all seems so impossible, and everything was so easy when......
But Adrianna will always be there.  She may be hiding for the time as Nick, taking some deep breaths. 
The reality is, transitioning is not so much a choice with most of us, as an imperative.  Like the cross-dresser that periodically purges, the ts often "quits" and hides in the alter gender, only to rise to the surface again as the true gender.
Take a deep breath, regroup, and try to help each other through your depressions.
Just my debatable thoughts.


Bev
1.) If you're skating on thin ice, you might as well dance. 
Bev
2.) The more I talk to my married friends, the more I
     appreciate  having a wife.
Marcy
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phantom_heart

i guess i've been figuring out that with the apperiance of Ethan or the...er Ethan Adrianna relationship...Adrianna wants to be her real self more and more. I kind of understand a little. If I (savannah) was the only one cheering for Adrianna and all the rest were not that would make her feel pretty crappy and i wouldnt want to do it. But now there is two of us. Plus two others that dont really have the brain power to care eather way. But the whole us is a completly diffrent story. What happens when we finally solve our issues or whatever There have been other personalties but they have come and gone so...I asumme when we are fianlly whole its going to be a whole diffrent ball game...*sigh* I can't imagin what she goes through day to day just trying to figure all this out. Trying to support us. Blah...sorry i didn't mean to have a pity party :S
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