Female privileges gained

[K8]

I lose some things and gain others. I take it as just the way it is now but admit that what many of you celebrate, aggravated me to no end.

Yes, and that's one big reason why I love being a woman and you hated it.  (And welcome back. )

But then I check myself against reality and realize that (1) most girls do seem to like that stuff, and (2) the difference, I guess, is that you ladies are wearing yourselves on the outside (and thus don't mind it getting noticed) whereas I wasn't.

And yes again.  It's a difference in viewpoint.  (Or perhaps a difference in internal gender. )

- Kate

[Nigella]

The most obvious one is when their expression changes and their eyes tend to go up and down, or at least down (to the boobs). The more playerish they are the better they hide it, then there's other cues.

Yeah, the eyes always go to my boobs when men talk to me, its as though they are talking to my boobs, lol. I see that as a privilege because it confirms my womanhood.

Stardust

[casorce]

I'll put up with the loss of status, the perceived decrease in intelligence, and the increased vulnerability because I feel that the opportunity to be free to be myself outweighs them.  And I get great strength from being included in the Sisterhood.

- Kate

Why put up with the loss of status when you can fight to gain equal status for women? You can be yourself AND be respected, if you're willing to fight for it.

[rejennyrated]

well I wasn't going to participate in this thread because I find all that sort of thing about privileges gained and lost rather irrelevant, but something which came up in another thread made me think of something which probably was a nice little female privilege to gain (and please don't take this too seriously folks or you'll start to think I'm a sex manaic here )

Visually checking a man's package without getting beaten up or insulted for my trouble afterwards.

I suppose by extension, because of that, I can't really complain when, like stardust says, men tend to talk to my chest! (though I do often want to say "Actually I think you'll find I'm up here... about a foot higher.") 

[casorce]

Visually checking a man's package without getting beaten up or insulted for my trouble afterwards.

Gay bars.

[rejennyrated]

Gay bars.

uh no - having been violently gang raped as a child at school by two gay boys who thought that my open gender "differences" made it ok to "use" me - I had something a phobia about gay men until I was postop, and therefor presumably only of interest to straight or bi men.

[casorce]

uh no - having been violently gang raped as a child at school by two gay boys who thought that my open gender "differences" made it ok to "use" me - I had something a phobia about gay men until I was postop, and therefor presumably only of interest to straight or bi men.

While that's horrible, it doesn't mean it doesn't apply for other pre-transition people. Nor does it make all gay men evil.

I think we need to examine what privilege means:
"a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most"
Pretty much everything stated in this thread has been the gaining of a benefit already enjoyed by other women. Therefore it is not a privilege, since it is not something you enjoy beyond the advantages of most.

The only people you have privilege over is...
Other trans women.

[rejennyrated]

While that's horrible, it doesn't mean it doesn't apply for other pre-transition people. Nor does it make all gay men evil.

Not suggesting for a moment that it does... It was just a silly phobia, which happily is now long since in the past.

and you weren't to know - I was just explaining why your little suggestion didn't really work for me. In any case my own contribution was, as I indicated in the original comment really a bit tongue in cheek, as indeed I think your original riposte was.

Incidentally I am one of those who after 26 years postop does not really consider that I am a transwoman. I would say rather that I am a woman with a trans and intersex past, subtle difference I know.
Anyway no worries

[Nigella]

I would say rather that I am a woman with a trans and intersex past, subtle difference I know.
Anyway no worries

I agree Jenny, I am a woman.

Stardust

[casorce]

transwoman

I'd just like to comment on the use of this word.
"Trans woman" is far more appropriate.
We don't go around typing "Blackwoman" or "Jewman", do we?

[rejennyrated]

Well whatever you prefer - but as I haven't considered myself to be one for the best part of 30 years it's not something I have really stopped to think about. I used the term concatenated like that only because it seems to be fairly widely used in forums like this. It was certainly not my intention to offend and if I did I apologise. But I stand corrected.

[Carlita]

While that's horrible, it doesn't mean it doesn't apply for other pre-transition people. Nor does it make all gay men evil.

I think we need to examine what privilege means:
"a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most"
Pretty much everything stated in this thread has been the gaining of a benefit already enjoyed by other women. Therefore it is not a privilege, since it is not something you enjoy beyond the advantages of most.

The only people you have privilege over is...
Other trans women.

The point is surely not about the relative levels of privilege among women (cis or trans), but between women and men. Conventionally, men have had all the privilege and so any MTF woman would be seen as losing privilege in transitioning from male to female. The suggestion of this thread is that some privileges might actually be gained along the way.

My own point was simply that women need no longer be seen as the oppressed sex, certainly among young, educated, middle-class females in western society.  So a young MTF who was able to complete her education, graduate college and enter the workforce as a woman might even be better off than she would have been as a male.

On the other hand, the gay Iranian men who are forced to transition because homosexuality is a crime punishable by death in Iran, whereas there is no bar to gender reassignment actually lose massively in status, since they live in a society in which women are still treated in many respects as second-class citizens, entirely subordinate to their menfolk.

They gain no female privileges, because there are none to be gained ...

For what it's worth, I think that class, race and education are far more powerful forces of privilege than gender. A wealthy white woman with a college degree and an executive-level job is infinitely more privileged than a male African American who never graduated high school, has no job, is addicted to crack and is about to go to jail on a third-strike offence ... The fact that he could, in theory, hit, rape, wolf-whistle or ogle her doesn't make a whole heap of difference to the fact that she is much, much better off than him.

[pretty pauline]

Yeah, the eyes always go to my boobs when men talk to me, its as though they are talking to my boobs, lol. I see that as a privilege because it confirms my womanhood.

Stardust

Yep absolutely agree stardust, I know exactly what a guy is thinking when his eyes wander and end up glued to my boobs, flaunt it if you have it, it is a female privilege, it does definitely confirm my womanhood.

Seconded. I'm honestly baffled by a lot of it. Who wants to be talked to in the bathroom? Or have attention drawn to their clothes? Or their body? I love that I'm invisible now, and when I do get noticed, it's because of me and not what I'm wearing.

But then I check myself against reality and realize that (1) most girls do seem to like that stuff, and (2) the difference, I guess, is that you ladies are wearing yourselves on the outside (and thus don't mind it getting noticed) whereas I wasn't.

Im not baffled by the lot of it, Im baffled as to why guys love getting dirty smelly and rough, yes I love being a girl/woman, I like a bit of girly gossip in a bathroom, girl talk on men lol, I love getting complements and another woman's opinion on a new dress or outfit, yes it is reality I surpose, ''most girls do seem to like that stuff'' you make it sound so boring, yawn I absolutely love that stuff, I guess Im just like most girls, Im just a typicial WOMAN!
P

[casorce]

The point is surely not about the relative levels of privilege among women (cis or trans), but between women and men. Conventionally, men have had all the privilege and so any MTF woman would be seen as losing privilege in transitioning from male to female. The suggestion of this thread is that some privileges might actually be gained along the way.

Gained? No. It would be an exchange of privileges. An exchange with a very poor ratio.

My own point was simply that women need no longer be seen as the oppressed sex, certainly among young, educated, middle-class females in western society.

An invalid point. Even these women still suffer from sexism, misogyny and pay disparity.

So a young MTF who was able to complete her education, graduate college and enter the workforce as a woman might even be better off than she would have been as a male.

No, she still suffers from sexism, misogyny and pay disparity (amongst a plethora of other things).

On the other hand, the gay Iranian men who are forced to transition because homosexuality is a crime punishable by death in Iran, whereas there is no bar to gender reassignment actually lose massively in status, since they live in a society in which women are still treated in many respects as second-class citizens, entirely subordinate to their menfolk.

They may have it far worse than white, western women, but that doesn't mean that western women have it good. Comparatively, they are better of, but compared to white, western men, they still do not have equality.
I'm getting a hint of "Almost equal is good enough!" from your statement.
I say that FULL equality is good enough.

For what it's worth, I think that class, race and education are far more powerful forces of privilege than gender.

Totally agree.

A wealthy white woman with a college degree and an executive-level job is infinitely more privileged than a male African American who never graduated high school, has no job, is addicted to crack and is about to go to jail on a third-strike offence ... The fact that he could, in theory, hit, rape, wolf-whistle or ogle her doesn't make a whole heap of difference to the fact that she is much, much better off than him.

However, within his socio-economic strata, a woman is still worse off than him.

[K8]

Why put up with the loss of status when you can fight to gain equal status for women? You can be yourself AND be respected, if you're willing to fight for it.

I have been a feminist since the '50s.  I fought for reproductive rights and opening male-dominated careers to women, among other things, and will continue to fight for them.  Women in the developed world have made great strides but we aren't there yet.  I know that our sisters in many countries are held at a level somewhere below that of livestock, and I will do what I can to work toward freeing them.   I accept the world as it is while trying to make it better. 

As a woman, I am very well respected within my community and have had no evidence that I wasn't when I traveled elsewhere.

Meanwhile, I see being able to participate in the chattiness of women, the admiration by women of my clothes and makeup and hair, the chivalry of men (regardless of their ulterior motives ), the opportunities to flirt and be flirted with, the freedom to touch another while talking to him or her, the freedom to dance around or act silly for no reason, and the opportunity to just be free to be myself as privileges that I didn't have before.

- Kate

[casorce]

Then I'm confused as to why you 'put up' with the loss of privilege/status.

[LordKAT]

I had to be curious.

Main Entry: priv·i·lege
Pronunciation: \ˈpriv-lij, ˈpri-və-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin privilegium law for or against a private person, from privus private + leg-, lex law
Date: 12th century

: a right or immunity granted as a peculiar benefit, advantage, or favor ; especially : such a right or immunity attached specifically to a position or an office

The bolded part seems to mean that female or male privilege is accurate.

[K8]

Then I'm confused as to why you 'put up' with the loss of privilege/status.

I accept the world as it is while trying to make it better. 

[Arch]

I'd just like to comment on the use of this word.
"Trans woman" is far more appropriate.
We don't go around typing "Blackwoman" or "Jewman", do we?

Heh. Maybe not, but we do still have terms like foreman/forewoman, Englishman/Englishwoman, let's see, tribesman/tribeswoman, and quite a few others that tend to come in gendered pairs. Then there's ombudsman (now, on my campus, altered to the vastly more cumbersome but highly PC ombudsperson), adman (I've never seen adwoman, but it might exist), mailman (still in common use, although the PC term, even for males, is the two-word term mail carrier)...me, I'm still waiting for manhole cover to become personhole cover. Which, I suppose, is beside the point but worth mentioning.

English. Gotta love it.

[K8]

I'm still waiting for manhole cover to become personhole cover.

I thought that was a "service access cover".

- Kate