An Unsettling Evening

[Stephanie]

My mother earlier this evening came out with one of her regular 'you don't need to dress, act like a girl to get a boyfriend' lectures.   My mother is firmly of the opinion that mtf transsexuals are really just gay men, who being ashamed of their 'abnormal' desires, try to convince themselves that they are really female and their attraction towards males is 'normal' and therefore psychologically acceptable.    I have tried to explain to her that first, mtf transsexuals are NOT gay men in denial.   Second, that I personally am not the slightest bit attracted to men.

  What makes this more complicated is that I discovered a couple of hours ago, that my sister has taken it completely for granted that I like men.   
My sister has been wonderful and 100 percent supportive of me since she found out.  I could in all honesty not have asked for more from her, everyone of us should have someone like her in their lives, and if you do then you will know exactly what I mean.
For the last few weeks my sister has been telling me about boys, and saying 'guys really love it if you do/say this', and 'men love it if you wear a low-cut top etc'.   I just assumed that she and I were indulging in 'girl-talk' and so I just silently went along with it.   Tonight she heard me denying that I was interested in men, and she was very surprised and even a little angry and disappointed.    I learned something very interesting, my sister and I sat down and she told me something like this.   Women are interested in men, emotionally, psychologically, physically.   Women are attracted and aroused by men and masculinity.   I naively blurted out 'what about gay and bisexual women?'   My sister replied 'sure there are lesbians but 90 % of women are attracted to men and only men'.  Furthermore she told me that when she goes to the gym she sees other women in the changing rooms in all sorts of states of dress and undress but she isn't the least bit turned on by this. 
    At this point our mother came into the room and told us why she fell in love with our father.   He was the brother of her friend, and she saw him one day at her friend's house stripped to the waist and doing guy stuff hammering, drilling, sawing etc.   It was his handsomeness and his masculinity that made her vow she was going to marry him.   
My sister then asked was I attracted to women and of course I said yes.    I was then told in no uncertain terms by the both of them that outside of lesbians no heterosexual women would be interested in forming a long-term relationship with me, because straight women are turned on by masculinity and turned-off by femininity. (an over-simplification)  I was also told that men and other women would naturally assume that I was attracted to men, and that if it was known that I preferred women men might be offended and women wouldn't feel relaxed in my company.   As uncomfortable as this information made me they did have a very good and persuasive argument.
   I have wondered if it might not be a whole lot easier if I just went along with program and became like the 'average' woman?   It would be an act at first but perhaps with time, experience and hormones I might wonder what all fuss about not liking men was about!

[K8]

Well, I can see why you found all this unsettling, Stephanie.

As you know, gender identity and sexual orientation are not closely related.  It may be too difficult for your sister and mother to wrap their heads around you being both trans and a lesbian.  I see the rest as girl talk, although it can be unsettling when you aren't used to it.

I don't think it works to try to force your gender or your sexual orientation.  I tried for a long time to be a man and never quite figured out how to do it right – it just didn't seem to "take".  I have gay friends who tried for many years to be straight and it just didn't work for them, either.  Just relax and see what happens.  How you deal with your sister and mother about this, I have no idea.

- Kate

[Janet_Girl]

Your sexual orientation is separate from your gender identity.  They just can not see that.  Your sister might change her mind one day, but Mom is set in her ways.

For your sanity, I would just keep the whole sexuality to yourself.  But don't feed their views, if you are attracted to women that should be yours alone.

We all go through a lot during transition.  Changes happen to our thinking.

[Nero]

Well 90% of women weren't raised male and expected to like women while being drowned in testosterone their formative years either. The stats do seem to suggest that more trans people are gay and lesbian than the cis population and that's probably due to a lot of different factors from upbringing, hormone levels, and hormone fluctuations in utero, etc.
Cis lesbians probably have to deal with similar comments too.

[Ellieka]

Hi Stephanie,

It sounds like your sister is a pretty good one. I can understand how her explanation could be unsettling but she is largely right. For instance, I am interested in men pretty much exclusively. I'm really drawn by their masculinity.When I was pre-transition I felt extremely awkward when I was in a locker room with men. I had to struggle to keep my eyes averted from them lest my interest was noticed. While on the other hand I have virtually no interest in women. I have discovered that because although I can appreciate another womans beauty, the though of being with another woman sexually just doesn't do it for me.

You don't have suppress your or try to change you sexual orientation but when interacting with other women as a woman keep it in check.

[Kay]

Hi Stephanie,
.
Just relax and be yourself...whatever that means.  Like many of us, for many years you were pushed into being someone that you weren't.  Don't start letting others tell you who you are now.  That's something that only you can discover in time.
.
Sure...after HRT your tastes may change....but they might not.  Own the journey, and discover it for yourself.
.
I'm alot like you in this.  I'm also not interested in men.  I tried a few times in my life to convince myself that I was gay, simply because I didn't fit...I never could conjure the necessary feelings of attraction toward men. Even when I had someone (a very fit/buff dancer in college) that I really liked that was interested in me.  Friends?  Definately.  More?  I guess that's when I knew that there was no way I could be gay.
.
Would it be easier if I liked men?  Probably.  Just as it would be easier for a gay man if he liked women instead.  It would be a larger section of the populace to browse for partners.  More opportunities.  It's not a choice though.  If you don't swing that way, you're going to be miserable trying to force it.
.
As far as women being uncomfortable around a lesbian, it all depends on the person.  There are some women and men who are extremely homophobic and transphobic.  With them, you can't win either way.  They're always going to be paranoid that you're looking at them sexually.  The problem isn't you, it's their paranoia.  One of my co-workers is a lesbian.  The other women in the office aren't uncomfortable around her.  They treat each other as friends.  Just because you're lesbian doesn't mean you have to oggle your peers in the locker room.  Treat them with respect and friendship, and you'll receive it in return.

[Nicky]

I woudn't just go along with it. Otherwise you end up going into another closet.

Be out and proud. But you don't need to rub in other people's faces. You can't choose to be straight.

Funny how they can sort of accept you are a woman, or a gay male. but then get hung up on the fact that you like women!

But daaa, of course heterosexual women are not going to be interested in you. That is just part of being gay. Also of course your sister is not interested in women, she is not gay 
and their point is

Ok, so it is not always easy being gay, but the world is changing, things are better and will keep getting better.

This is just them struggling to deal with it, their whole perception of sex and gender and sexuality is being challenged. They will come round.

Kay said it all much better than me.

[kyril]

Well 90% of women weren't raised male and expected to like women while being drowned in testosterone their formative years either. The stats do seem to suggest that more trans people are gay and lesbian than the cis population and that's probably due to a lot of different factors from upbringing, hormone levels, and hormone fluctuations in utero, etc.
Cis lesbians probably have to deal with similar comments too.

Yes, it seems likely that the process that causes our gender identity to form atypically is at least partly independent of the process that forms our sexual orientations.

What's intriguing is that the prevalence of gays and lesbians in the trans population seems to be neither the same as in the cis population nor the inverse of the prevalence in the cis population. That implies that sexual orientation development is neither wholly independent of nor inextricably linked to gender identity development - that there's some sort of connection, but it's not 100%.

[Autumn]

I was then told in no uncertain terms by the both of them that outside of lesbians no heterosexual women would be interested in forming a long-term relationship with me, because straight women are turned on by masculinity and turned-off by femininity. (an over-simplification)  I was also told that men and other women would naturally assume that I was attracted to men, and that if it was known that I preferred women men might be offended and women wouldn't feel relaxed in my company.   As uncomfortable as this information made me they did have a very good and persuasive argument.

Heterosexual women turned off by pussies; breasts. Pulitzer Prize winning, earth-shaking headline.

If you have a sex change, straight women won't be interested in you. Simple as that.
Bi women? Lesbians? Some will, some won't. Heteroflexible? Same deal.

Are straight people unnerved by gay people in their midst, because oh, the scary gay person is going to molest them? Sometimes, yeah, people are stupid. It's especially hilarious with guys. Oh no, he's going to sneak into the shower and suck your cock when you aren't looking, watch out!

Learning how to handle sexuality in social situations is just another part of growing up. It doesn't have to be relevant with most people.

Do I wonder how exactly the whole 'female sanctuary' attitude you get when you have a group of women together who feel at ease because they aren't being targeted sexually will play out, when eventually those women find out I like women too? Yeah... but what can I do about that? *shrug*

In my personal life, nearly every girl I know is bi, so that's a different matter. I just wish they would stop wanting to sleep with me because I have boobs and a penis.

[Asfsd4214]

Being straight, I'd love to talk to your mother and inform her that while I'm interested in men I would quite gladly have scarified ANY relationships with ANYBODY to save myself from having to live as a guy.

Anyway, I can't say I disagree with a lot of the opinions they gave you. Sure there are always exceptions, often not even infrequent exceptions. But by and large most of what they've said I believe to be true.

As for what you can do, I'm not sure. Continue to try to educate them is all I can really recommend. Try to make them understand that gender identity and sexual orientation are separate.

And for yourself, I think you just need to wait a while and let your sexual orientation let you know who it is you want relationships with, and just let it guide you rather than trying to force yourself to one or the other.

I think HRT can change your ability to perceive attraction in one sex or the other, but that your orientation fundamentally is independent of those influences. I've yet to hear of anybody who would say their orientation has switched from absolutely one to absolutely the other. I've heard of plenty of people say it changes their interests from a physical sense, but not that it changes the fundamental emotional desires for one or the other.

As you know, gender identity and sexual orientation are not closely related.

I'm sorry k8 but I just have to entirely disagree with you there. I certainly agree that sexual orientation and gender identity are independent. But they're not even remotely unrelated.

[Cindy Stephens]

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I had two disastrous marriages with women to whom I had not been totally open and honest.  Then, I had a female roommate in a totally non-sexual relationship for a while and really opened up to her.  She connected me with a friend of hers that likes my feminine side much better than the masculine side. We have been married for 25 years, have moderately successful careers, and most importantly, I have been able to express myself with the love of my life.  Now, what I am trying to convey is that there are women who genuinely like us, for the way that we are.  They are just a smaller subset of the dating pool.  It might be wise to think about ways to access that particular type and weed out the typical female who does reject us as "husband" material. Why beat your head against the wall, setting yourself up for failure?  When I dated there was no computerized dating, but now you can search for just about anything. Take advantage of that. Be creative!  Are you near a college with a liberal arts or especially "fine" arts program? Those girls often like us. See if they have personal ads in the school newspaper.  BE CAREFUL-BUT DON"T SHUT OFF!  Don't leave out room for the type of serendipity which worked so well for me.  Good luck

[Dawn D.]

Stephanie,

I was then told in no uncertain terms by the both of them that outside of lesbians no heterosexual women would be interested in forming a long-term relationship with me, because straight women are turned on by masculinity and turned-off by femininity.

(scratching head) If this were true, I have to wonder why then my wife of thirty years; one whom has never had a desire (and believe me, I would have known) for female sexual liaisons, wishes to still have a loving monogamous relationship with the woman that used to be a man and her husband?

Now, it may be more difficult if you're attempting to bond and build a relationship from the ground up as a trans-woman connecting with a  cis-woman. However, I do not see it as either improbable or impossible.

You know, relationships are far more than just the physical. You're sister and Mother touched on that part but strangely left it out of their own equation:

emotionally, psychologically, physically.

Judging from the characterization of their argument to convince you that you have to be or, ought to be attracted to men; as a woman. Theirs, seems borne more from the physical element of a relationship than the emotional & psychological. I think, feel and know that in my own continuing relationship with my wife and likewise, hers with me; the reason it still "works" between us is that we really, really like each other! This derives from the emotional and psychological elements in a relationship. The physical then takes care of itself.

Be yourself, Stephanie. Only you know in your heart your own need. Nobody has this whole thing figured out and knows all the answers. To add another cliche', just be true to yourself.


Dawn

 

[Stephanie]

Hi everyone, thanks for all the replies.
Last night in bed and today I have been thinking about what occurred on Wednesday night.    I have come to the conclusion that I cannot pretend to be attracted to men just for a so-called easier life.   My truth is that men simply don't do anything for me and to pretend otherwise just to calm my mother and sister's fears would not only be unforgivably deceitful but would go against everything I have come to believe in.
    When I came out to my mother and sister about my transsexuality I realised that being honest with yourself and others is incredibly important.  I must admit that after a good night's sleep I am surprised that given the above I ever entertained the idea of pretending to be heterosexual.   I also know that had I decided to be false to myself and others and pretend to like men, then there would have come a time when I would have said ' stop I can't go on with this a minute longer, but I just can pretend that I like men'.
   
    I had an informal talk with my mother late this afternoon, and I told her how I felt about the whole dating men business.    I get the distinct impression from my mother that she would find it much easier to cope with a gay son, than having to explain to her friends and the wider family: 'yes Stephen is now called Stephanie'... 'I no longer have a son I now have two daughters...'
'yes she is taking hormones and SRS is a future possibility...'  'we would be grateful if you could start using the appropriate feminine pronouns around her...'      I can understand this is a huge psychological step for her, and yes I can also understand that going through all this would be embarrassing for her.   However, I simply cannot  pretend to be something I am not just to spare her blushes.     
    I suspect that the parents of many transsexuals would much prefer it if their sons, daughters moved far away from the family and lived their 'embarrassing' lifestyle far from the eyes of neighbours, family, and friends.   My mother has said to me on occasion ' if you want to live like this then you can do it somewhere else'.    I don't think she really means this, she usually says this when I my wearing full make-up, or if I have painted my finger nails, or my perfume is too noticeable.   She doesn't mind that I wear panties full-time or that my toenails are nearly always painted, or even that I shave my underarms and legs.  This is because these things aren't normally on display to the general public.    My mother seems to want to contain my feminine expression like  a Victorian family hid a mad uncle in the attic. 

   The obvious answer to all this is simply to move out and get my own place.  However, the economy is terrible over here.   I live in a large town (population circa 80,000+) but almost all the jobs advertised are part-time – part-time is anything from 2-21 hours, although most are 7-12 hours.  I have also discovered that my Arts degree is not really worth the paper it is printed on.  I have been offered a place at university to study law, a much more marketable degree than history, so that means I will have to live at home until 2013.   So I will have to come to some arrangement with my mother that we both can live with.
   I haven't seen my sister today but I will see her this Sunday and hopefully any misunderstandings between us will be cleared up then.

[K8]

Stephanie,
In some ways we are breaking new territory.  Often our families don't know how to handle the fact that one of their members is trans.  My sister accepts me but isn't sure how to refer to me – somehow she hasn't made the connection that I am now her little sister (the sister she always wished for but didn't know she had ).

We don't have the words for all of this yet.  My daughter's other mother asked me how she should refer to me now.  I offered several alternatives – ex-spouse, ex-partner, daughter's other mother – but she wasn't comfortable with any of them.

It sounds like your mother is trying.  Be gentle with her.  This is difficult for her, too.

- Kate

[sneakersjay]

As someone who just came out as gay also, I understand totally.

For people first to accept that we're trans, I think their brains still automatically think of us as straight.  Actually I had a hard enough time accepting my own sexuality, that I actually kept it to myself until a few months ago.

I lived all my life as a straight woman, attracted to masculine men, dating, marrying, and having sex with men.  But my own sexuality was all over the map as my hormones were changing.

So yeah, it will take them a while to process that you are trans, and may take them longer to process that you're gay, too.

One step at a time.

I only recently came out because I am wanting to date and hopefullly find a partner.  But I really came out because my mother brought it up, about who I wanted to date.  So I told her I was still attracted to masculine men, so that made me a gay man.  She didn't like that answer, but there it is.

For me it's harder to come out to people as gay than it was to come out as trans.  I don't have to tell people I'm gay; they won't know unless I partner up.  Whereas people will notice you change from f to m.

Jay

[Ellieka]

I like you Stephanie, you really think thing through . Thats going to really help you through all this. You most certainly do not have to pretend to like men. Doing that will only cause more problems in the future. Based on my observations and conversations with many of my gay friends, the women mostly, do not hide their sexual orientation but they are discreet about it.

I've had several sis gendered straight women tell me that they are more uncomfortable with trans women then they are sis gendered gay women because of the perceived threat. Once they get to know me things change quite a lot.

You situation and mine are a bit different in that I am not attracted to women so those that know me are very comfortable around me. Gay women who often have to interact or work in a predominately female environment often don't talk about their sexual orientation but the by no means hide or lie about it either. It's just one of those things. Kinda like having small boobs, yes it's obvious but still not something one would go around advertising.