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Gender Fluidity and Women's Separate Spaces

Started by emlauren, March 09, 2010, 09:48:38 PM

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emlauren

Hello everyone,

I am an undergrad currently working on a research paper about the concept of "separate spaces" and their consequential immutable categories. I specifically want to tailor this subject to discuss separate spaces in lesbian feminist culture. I want to discuss how the concept of "gender fluidity" might take place in this argument. I want to deal with not only the theoretical, but with real-world separatist policies, specifically such as those at the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival.

I would love to hear any and all of your opinions/stories. I have a few questions here, but feel free to pick and choose. If you feel that I have missed something, or should be informed of something else, I would also appreciate that information. Thank you very much!



What is your personal take on the concept of "gender fluidity"? Why do you think this?

For argument's sake, let's assume that gender is fluid. How would the acknowledgement of the fluidity of gender play into the argument surrounding separate women's spaces?

What does this (the acknowledgement of gender fluidity) bring to the debate regarding whether trans women should or should not be excluded from women's spaces?





Thank you very much for your insight! Your opinions are valuable to my research.

I apologize if I use any inappropriate terms on this forum; please feel free to correct me if I do.

P.S. I don't know if anybody will remember me from...oh...a year and a half ago? I believe my screen name was "soleil", and I posted because I was/am a young woman involved in a relationship with a mtf and we were having problems. Things got really sucky for a while and I stopped posting, but now everything is sooo much better! Yay!
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PanoramaIsland

Gender, to me, is both ambiguous and obviously fluid. Concepts of binary gender, whether defined as the capital-M Man who "wears the pants" in the current (sexist) Dockers ad campaign, or the Universal Woman that second-wave feminists liked to imagine, are fictions. Such concepts obscure the simple fact that, even within our strongly gender-binarized and patriarchal society, people express gender in an astonishingly large variety of ways. Socialize people as we might, we can never warp every last person into a pair of perfect complementary genders; there will always be those who escape, even if they are only very few in number. I think gender is best seen through the lense of the Vulcan philosophy - "infinite diversity in infinite combinations" - with the added thought that a person's gender cycles through a number of those combinations in the course of their life.

I understand the idea of women's spaces as sanctuaries from patriarchy - although, theoretically speaking, there's no total escape from patriarchy when everyone is socialized into a patriarchal society, not even in a crowd made exclusively of women (or indeed, exclusively of feminists, or feminist women, or your particular favorite ideological strain of feminist women). I like the idea of special spaces where patriarchy can be greatly reduced; it's when we remove the lens of the gender binary that the whole affair falls apart.

Gender-binary essentialism, when combined with a vested interest in one's own perceived/identified binary gender, seems something akin to nationalism: one artificially divides an abundant diversity of people into Group A and Group B, identifies and sides with the interests of one of the groups, and proceeds to generalize greatly about the (generally good) perceived attributes of one's own group and the (generally bad) perceived attributes of the other group. People caught in-between these supposedly irreconcilable categories - Arab-Americans, transgender/gender-variant and andro people, people managing to be simultaneously "us" and "them" or the supposedly impossible neither "us" nor "them" - are thrown to the winds, trampled on, declared dangerous or out of their minds, or made invisible, ignored. Thus, gender essentialism breeds transphobia: when one erects immutable categories of A and B, and someone shows up who was raised A but always felt more B, or considers themselves AB (or C, or null), one simply does not know what to do with this person. According to one's mental constructs, this person simply must be invalid, or else one's entire view on the matter must be reconsidered. Obviously, most people in most situations will be very loath to question their cherished views.

The MichFest policy fails and becomes transphobic because it gives credence to the very gender-binary categories that oppress women (or "womyn," if you will) in the first place, placing more importance in how someone was raised and socialized than how they have struggled to define themselves. By this system of  thinking, transmen are to be regarded as women, transwomen to be regarded as men and genderqueer/andro etc. folks to be lumped back into whatever binary category they were raised as, because they still carry with them the "mana," so to speak, of their socialization. Never mind that they work consciously to fight against that socialization - their past overwhelms all conscious efforts they could possibly make.

In my mind, MichFest actually damages the status of people "born" women - or rather, assigned female at birth - by perpetuating and re-ingraining the binary categories of "male" and "female," justifying it by unscientific and irrational, outdated second-wave feminist dogma. That type of feminism had its time and place in history, but if we are really to break patriarchy, we need spaces that are shelters not just from patriarchy, but from the gender binary itself - the system that makes patriarchy possible. We are not simply what we are "born;" we actively perform gender, and together we can perform our way away from the gender slavery that binary thinking imposes.

In short, the MichFest organizers really need to read some Judith Butler.
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emlauren

PanoramaIsland,

Thank you very much for your insight! You are extremeley eloquent and clear about it. I think we see very much eye-to-eye on the subject, especially in what I think I'm going to argue in this research. I am trying to objectively collect opinions, though come of the women over at MichFest are trying to make it more complicated!



To everyone else, I know these questions might seem heavy, but really just feel free to ramble about what you think. My research is supposed to be heavily based on first-hand research, so there's really no need for formality. Everyone has different styles :)

I just want to say how happy I am to be on here again  :-* Last night I felt like I was coming home to a warm and welcoming family. I'm definitely going to post more often after finals are over next week! :)
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Constance

What is your personal take on the concept of "gender fluidity"? Why do you think this?

I think there is a very valid case for the concept of gender fluidity. Western cultures seem to focus on the man-woman male-female binary, but other cultures seem to have three or more gender categories.

I consider myself to be gender fluid. I don't particulary care for the term "androgyne" as it reinforces the binary of man (andro) and woman (gyne). There are days when I'm completely "at home" in my male body. There are days when I feel like I need the "opposite" anatomy. Usually, I feel that both male and female anatomies would be limiting; I'd prefer a body that combines aspects of both. But that statement there upholds the binary, too.


For argument's sake, let's assume that gender is fluid. How would the acknowledgement of the fluidity of gender play into the argument surrounding separate women's spaces?

I will argue that gender is indeed fluid. I would expect, therefore, to not find a place for myself in "separate women's spaces." But at the same time, I'd expect to not find a place for myself in men's spaces, too.

If I were to enter "separate women's spaces" cross-dressed, that is expressing what I feel to be a key component of my gender identity, it could be said that I was being dishonest. I must admit that I find a certain validity to this idea. Biologically I am male. I have both an X and a Y chromosome. I have sired two children. My anatomy is most definitely male. Therefore, I would agree that I do not have a place in "separate women's spaces."

That said, I believe that a male-to-female transsexuals would indeed have a place in "separate women's spaces." I might be splitting hairs here, but male and female are sexual identities. Man and woman are gender identities (see "Transgender History" by Susan Stryker). The phrase offered was "separate women's spaces" not "separate females' spaces." Replacing "women" with "females" offers a slight but important difference, to me.


What does this (the acknowledgement of gender fluidity) bring to the debate regarding whether trans women should or should not be excluded from women's spaces?

I imagine that as I am a biological male without any plans at this time to transition that my opinions on this matter would be considered irrelevant. Without transition, I would never even have a claim to a place, for the reason I offered above. If I were to say, "Transwomen should be allowed into 'separate women's spaces,'" it could be alleged that this is an attempt by a member of the patriarchy trying to dictate how these "spaces" should be run. I would reject this accusation, based on the idea that I have no desire whatsoever to dictate to private organizations how they should codify their policies. My maleness, to me, should not even be an issue. But, I know that it is.

Ultimately, I think it depends on who is supporting and funding these organizations. If they are completely supported and funded privately, then I feel that they have the right to include or exclude whomever they wish. If the they are supported and funded by the general public, that changes things, to me.

I find the womyn born womyn movement to be sexist, as it excludes persons based on things beyond their control; their genetics. I understand that as a male, my opinion would be viewed as irrelevant or even imperialistic (is that the right word?) in this regard.

Sandy

Quote from: emlauren on March 09, 2010, 09:48:38 PM
What is your personal take on the concept of "gender fluidity"? Why do you think this?
I cannot speak for others, only for myself and my internal feelings.

I was born with the genitalia of a male.  But throughout my life I *knew* I was different.  When I was old enough to understand the terms I had the undeniable knowledge that I was female.  So for me I believe in my gender binary.  My body may have been ravaged by testosterone, but my brain, mind, and soul were those of a female.  My gender is female.

While I was in transition, I did not enter women's locker rooms (I had no problem with the ladies toilet).  Not because I believed that I didn't belong there, but I knew my presence would upset others who would not have been aware of my situation.  To those GG's that were aware of me, we had no problem dressing in front of each other because I was accepted by them as being female regardless of my physical attributes (or deformities).

I am very disappointed in being barred from cultural events like the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival because I am truly a womyn.  And certainly I have the same fears that every woman has.  And I am at a significantly higher risk for being molested or killed than a "born womyn" precisely because of my birth deformity.

I could make the argument that a woman born with six fingers is still a woman.  A woman born with diabetes is still a woman.  A woman born with ambiguous genitalia is still a woman.  Why?  Because THEY THEMSELVES KNOW THEY ARE A WOMAN!  The physical attributes are secondary to their internal absolute unshakable knowledge of gender.

To put it in prosaic terms, we are souls that wear a body.  The body is simply the house where the soul resides.  That *soul* has the gender.  If it doesn't match up with the body being worn, then there is discomfort.

I take a dim view of the feminists who claim that transsexuals are simply(!) trying to co-opt the feminine mystique and can never be *real* women because they did not grow up as a woman.  They never experienced the trials and hardships that a girl growing up experiences.  True.  But if we wish to compare "hells", try growing up confused, knowing that everything feels wrong, and are constantly bullied, beaten and hazed by every other male but don't know why.

I am post-op everything and all my records show me as being female.  I have no doubt that I could pass muster to get into something like the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival.  But why would I wish to go to someplace where I could not be honest?  I've spent my whole life living a lie, and I will not trade one lie for another just to please someone who's views are as extreme as some of the religious reich.  And who have about as much understanding and compassion.

For me to believe in gender fluidity, I would have to accept the concept that my internal knowledge of what gender I am can be changed by will alone.  And I know that to be false.  Trust me I've spent literally decades trying to do just that and it never worked for me.  I attempted to will myself to be male in spirit and body.  I mimicked the actions of other males hoping it would rub off.  It never worked.  All I ever became was a very good actor.  I played my part well, but I knew where the character stopped and *I* began.

I cannot answer the other questions, simply because I find the concept incomprehensible for me.  I posted on that very subject in my blog: Incomprehensibility of Gender

As I said, these are my own belief and I do not expect others to accept or even understand them.  And I don't think for a second that anyone else having a contrary opinion is wrong.

Best of luck on your paper, Lauren!  I do remember you from back then.  I am so happy that things have worked out for you!

Keep us posted on how this paper turns out.

-Sandy
Out of the darkness, into the light.
Following my bliss.
I am complete...
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emlauren

#5
Shades O'Grey and Sandy,

Thank you both for your insightful responses! I appreciate your taking the time to share your thoughts with me.


Sandy,

Haha I didn't know if anyone would remember me! It's nice to be back. :) My paper should be done with soon, I'll make sure to let you know how it works out!



Post Merge: March 15, 2010, 06:29:40 PM


...and I'm done with my paper! Yay!

Thank you all for taking the time to share your thoughts with me! Let's hope it goes well...
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