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Palin Denounces Violence, But Gun Imagery Will Stay

Started by Julie Marie, March 27, 2010, 07:46:00 AM

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Autumn

The masses are too stupid for that and it would cripple the government and waste even more money than it already does. Everyones' opponents would just spend all their time smearing them, and incumbents would do nothing but defend their positions.

If you want a government that achieves nothing, there are better ways.
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Kaelin

A recall has the "problem" of making it difficult for politicians to make "tough" decisions, and it keeps them in perpetual campaign mode.  Also, it takes a fairly higher disapproval number to be fairly certain that there will be a another candidate who is actually more favorable.  Obama in the 40s of approval is probably still the consensus choice to be President.  McCain, Palin, Romney, and Huckabee can't beat him right now, and I don't see a person outside of the R/D paradigm getting serious consideration.

As for the original article, the premise appears correct.  While ostensibly condemning violence, Palin is quite guilty of fueling it.  Lying ("death panels") and violent imagery/language are designed to get people highly motivated to be loyal to her and her party, but the devices she uses also encourage uncivil criminal behavior.  Outcomes cannot always be controlled, but you can judge the means that someone uses to achieve their ends.  Considering the means Palin has used (especially the lying), her behavior is deplorable.  But then, her quitting as governor (where there would be tough work to do budget-wise with the recession kicking in) to set up a book deal and get a gig at Fox News suggests she's not really serious about doing something constructive.
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SarahFaceDoom

Quote from: cynthialee on March 30, 2010, 12:34:48 PM
Jeferson was of the opinion that each generation should be allowed to write a new constitution and laws reflective of that generation.
Often he is quoted saying that the constitution should be re-writen every 20 years.

I think that is a good idea in theory but it definatly would raise issues.

I wouldn't worry too much about Jefferson.  Conservatives are writing him out of our children's history books as we speak.  In two generations, no one will know the difference between him and James Polk.

Post Merge: April 01, 2010, 04:03:42 AM

Quote from: Britney_413 on April 01, 2010, 01:56:59 AM
One solution is to make it just as easy to recall a politician as it is to elect them, including the President. A President may have well below a 50% approval rating but unless he commits a crime and gets impeached the public has to wait until the next election to get rid of him. The public should be able to vote out presidents, governors, senators, representatives, and others just as easily as they can vote them in. That might make politicans take every day of their job much more seriously.

This type of government resulted in Prop 8.  If American people had a better media, and were overall more intelligent then this might work.  But as it is, we are a stupid, lazy, and fat country that has been bought and sold over so many times, we can't even understand that we're being screwed beyond some vague tin foiled affectation to it's affect.  A kind of gross cultural mumbling if you will.

Not that any of it matters.  We're a bloated dying empire.  We're involved in two protracted wars that have decimated our economy and will continue to do so for as long as the eye can see (you can't defeat "terrorism").  We don't make anything anymore.  Our chief services are culture and financial services.  But as our kids get dumber and dumber with our poorly run, poorly constructed, poorly funded schools we won't even be able to do those things.

We needed change.  But Obama so far has not been radical enough to give the change we needed.  His center right policies will not work at addressing the complex problems that face us.
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Kaelin

Be wary of calling US kids "dumb."  The under 30 crowd tends to be more supportive GLBT rights than older generations, so at the very least they tend to demonstrate more intelligence on this issue.  They may go through a decline relative to the rest of the world, but I think you are giving too much credit to the older people they are replacing.
  •  

justmeinoz

Are there any people in the USA who are Conservative, but not Right-Wing extremists.
The sort of people who are in favour of stable families, regardless of the gender of the parents, or who don't believe that the goverment should be looking into peoples bedrooms?
The sort of person who supports "a safety net to catch those who fall, but reject any ceiling to stop those who are rising"? (Sir Robert Menzies, PM on the Australian welfare system in the 1950's).
The sort of people who still hold the concept of duty, and see that a nation has a responsibility to help those who fall by the wayside back on their feet?
Sir Winston Churchill would be chauffered in his Rolls to the Post Office to collect his Aged Pension, because it was his right as a British subject, even though he paid more in tax.

Basically do you have any "Normal" people over there, because from here it looks likeAmerican society has totally lost the plot on this question.
"Don't ask me, it was on fire when I lay down on it"
  •  

Kaelin

It depends on your standard of "conservative."  There are people who who fit the remaining criteria, but they are more likely to be called "liberals" or even "socialists" by certain others (notably staunch right-wingers) in the country, even though in an absolute sense they may be moderate or even carry a conservative lean.

And then, it depends on your definition of "normal."  Typical ("normal") people in the US are fairly immature when it comes to statesmanship (finding solutions rather than engaging in turf wars).  If by "normal" you mean wise, constructive, and educated on the issues, we have heaps of these people, but they appear to be a minority.
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Tammy Hope

Quote from: Kaelin on April 01, 2010, 03:41:40 AM
A recall has the "problem" of making it difficult for politicians to make "tough" decisions, and it keeps them in perpetual campaign mode.  Also, it takes a fairly higher disapproval number to be fairly certain that there will be a another candidate who is actually more favorable.  Obama in the 40s of approval is probably still the consensus choice to be President.  McCain, Palin, Romney, and Huckabee can't beat him right now, and I don't see a person outside of the R/D paradigm getting serious consideration.

As for the original article, the premise appears correct.  While ostensibly condemning violence, Palin is quite guilty of fueling it.  Lying ("death panels") and violent imagery/language are designed to get people highly motivated to be loyal to her and her party, but the devices she uses also encourage uncivil criminal behavior.  Outcomes cannot always be controlled, but you can judge the means that someone uses to achieve their ends.  Considering the means Palin has used (especially the lying), her behavior is deplorable.  But then, her quitting as governor (where there would be tough work to do budget-wise with the recession kicking in) to set up a book deal and get a gig at Fox News suggests she's not really serious about doing something constructive.

On another board there was an interesting column posted, from an ostensibly neutral source and a writer who claimed to be a moderate.

I don't repost it here because I have no interest in defending whether or not the writer is in fact a moderate.

But what he did contribute to this conversation is this - he posted a selection of photos from both the Searchlight event, and a left-wing protest that happened in LA on the same day. And it was just as easy to find incendiary, sometimes violent imagery at the left wing rally as at the right wing rally.

Point being, imagery and rhetoric are loaded with provocative metaphors all across the political spectrum, yet it only becomes "dangerous" when we talk about right wingers.


Post Merge: April 02, 2010, 01:27:50 AM

Quote from: justmeinoz on April 01, 2010, 06:51:29 AM
Are there any people in the USA who are Conservative, but not Right-Wing extremists.
The sort of people who are in favour of stable families, regardless of the gender of the parents, or who don't believe that the goverment should be looking into peoples bedrooms?
The sort of person who supports "a safety net to catch those who fall, but reject any ceiling to stop those who are rising"? (Sir Robert Menzies, PM on the Australian welfare system in the 1950's).
The sort of people who still hold the concept of duty, and see that a nation has a responsibility to help those who fall by the wayside back on their feet?
Sir Winston Churchill would be chauffered in his Rolls to the Post Office to collect his Aged Pension, because it was his right as a British subject, even though he paid more in tax.

Basically do you have any "Normal" people over there, because from here it looks likeAmerican society has totally lost the plot on this question.

Yes, there are.

I'm one of them and I am FAR from alone.

Disclaimer: due to serious injury, most of my posts are made via Dragon Dictation which sometimes butchers grammar and mis-hears my words. I'm also too lazy to closely proof-read which means some of my comments will seem strange.


http://eachvoicepub.com/PaintedPonies.php
  •  

SarahFaceDoom

Fox News treated Anti-War protesters during the Bush years, almost exactly how MSNBC treats tea baggers right now.  It's probably less important who is saying what about whom--and more important to look at the way the media, no matter which side it is flagging for, demeans the right to assemble.   Something that is one of the purest expressions within a democracy.

Now the simple thing is to say that the media is doing these things for political reasons.  But since it's both sides that do it, what politics is that serving?  No the reason the media does this is because it creates a sense of fear amongst the side they are preaching to, and anger from the side being persecuted.  Both end up watching your show or giving you feedback, and at the end of the day your ratings go up, and your bottomline increases.

The only politics at play here is money.

Of course then when you look at the people who are setting up these demonstrations on both the left and right, you'll note that the money leads back to some pretty rich hands.

At the end of the day all of this is about keeping the people divided and distracted while the rich get richer.

They've got the lower classes doing the work for the upper classes out there campaigning against taxes for the wealthy.  It's pretty amazing really.  But all part of the system that's been in place for the entire history of this country.

It's never been truly the land of the free.  It's always been the land of the rich.

There's no republican or democrat.  There's rich and there's poor.

Post Merge: April 02, 2010, 01:43:11 AM

Quote from: justmeinoz on April 01, 2010, 06:51:29 AM
Are there any people in the USA who are Conservative, but not Right-Wing extremists.
The sort of people who are in favour of stable families, regardless of the gender of the parents, or who don't believe that the goverment should be looking into peoples bedrooms?
The sort of person who supports "a safety net to catch those who fall, but reject any ceiling to stop those who are rising"? (Sir Robert Menzies, PM on the Australian welfare system in the 1950's).
The sort of people who still hold the concept of duty, and see that a nation has a responsibility to help those who fall by the wayside back on their feet?
Sir Winston Churchill would be chauffered in his Rolls to the Post Office to collect his Aged Pension, because it was his right as a British subject, even though he paid more in tax.

Basically do you have any "Normal" people over there, because from here it looks likeAmerican society has totally lost the plot on this question.

You more or less described Obama.  Who in our country is a socialist.

Australia is way more liberal than the US.  Your conservative is our liberal.
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Kaelin

Laura Hope, the post you quoted from me only evaluates Sarah Palin's conduct, as that is what the thread's topic relates to.  I don't think the content points to misconduct as only being a "right-wing" problem, but your response seems to imply that I did.

That said, the right-wing does seem (to me) to be responsible for a clear majority of the violence and inflammatory rhetoric.  Your source produced one example of each "side" (and I use "side" with uneasiness, but the free thinkers that don't work for either "side" are highly unlikely to bother with these tactics anyway), but it doesn't prove each "side" has the same number of troublemakers doing the same amount of harm -- ("balance," showing misconduct on each side, is not the same thing as "fairness," which illustrates the overall quantity of violence for each side).

In the end, it doesn't matter, though.  All violence and incitement of this nature is bad.  It's just that I haven't seen such a mobilization on the left in the past decade that compares with what we've seen from the likes of Palin or Glenn Beck, so one wasn't about to show up in a comparison.



Sarah, I would say Fox News has not systematically demeaned the right to assemble.  Their network has seemed to *love* it when the "tea party" assembles (there was a "reporter" on at least one occasion who tried to whip the group into a frenzy, much like a local news channel would for an event it sponsors).  Fox News appears self-serving, although another take on it is that they are at least not systematically negative about the right to assemble.  But then, media has a nasty tendency to focus on disasters (and negatives) rather than positives (except for "human interest stories" that rarely show us anything new/interesting).

Given the power of money in campaigns and legislation, I would generally think of the United States as somewhat resembling a plutocracy, which seems to relate to the rest of your thought.  It may be a case of the rich and conservative versus the really rich and really conservative.
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SarahFaceDoom

No I was saying Fox News, CNN, MSNBC---the 24 hour news networks.  They have conspired for the point of ratings to demean the power of assembly to almost comic proportions.  One side makes fun of one side, while the other side acts offended and more patrioatic until the roles reverse.  It's the same game every year.  Whether it's protesting the war or protesting health care.  One side says it's dangerous and anti-american.  And the other says that they are just exercising free speech.
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tekla

There is a huge difference between the two.  For one thing, most people know the left is kidding, humor being one of their biggest weapons, for another they tend to be very bad at it.  The reason that right wing domestic terrorists are feared is because often they are very good.

A quick look at domestic terrorists in the US has a long list on one side, often highly effective, and a short list on the other, which tends to be populated by failure.  When the Weathermen or SLA tried to do terrorism they largely succeeded in killing themselves for the most part.  When the right does domestic terrorism we get: Night Riders, the KKK, White Citizens Councils, the Branch Davidians, The Montana Freemen, Ruby Ridge, The American Nazi Party, Aryan Nation, the Christian Identity Movement,  more militias then you can shake a stick at, Charles Manson (don't let the hippie outfit fool you, old Chuck was an old fashioned Southern Racist whose goal was a race war that would wipe out the blacks) and Oklahoma City.

When it seems like you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a right-wing militia terrorist cell in some places (Georgia, Florida, Montana, Idaho, Michigan) people wonder where the left wing militias terrorist cells are, and the answer is easy.  There has not been an armed left wing militia terrorist cell in the USA since the Black Panthers, and before that, never.   

And we just saw another right wing Christian group go down in Michigan, their plan was to kill some cops, then bomb the funeral, then the US would rise up and go all Helter Skelter and overthrow the government - and I guess instill them into power because they were such patriots.  The reality however is that given their mugshots all I can think of is that somewhere in Michigan right now a carnival is running itself and combined I bet they don't make a triple digit IQ.  Oh yeah, when arrested for plotting to violently overthrow the government what did they want?  Yeah, a public defender - a government sponsored lawyer.  I can't help but to imagine that they didn't think their clever plan all the way through.  Oh yeah, who defended this morons on national TV, the guy filling in for Glenn Beck of course.

So you have a huge difference when people on one side show up to protest rallies with guns, or signs threatening to go home and get them (and we damn sure know they have them to get) and the other side which tends to circus theatrics like painting tiger stripes on naked women and putting them in cages for some PETA protest of Ringling Brothers.

Basically do you have any "Normal" people over there, because from here it looks like American society has totally lost the plot on this question.

Yes, in fact most of the people here are 'normal' by American standards.  But...there are several things to consider here.  First is there is a huge difference (un-noted, because it's largely unknown to the right) between the largely unseen governance aspects and the highly televised political stuff.  The first is the day to day business of running a government for 300 million people in a highly advanced, technological, industrial nation state.  These people are the best students, who went to the best schools and did the best at the hardest programs.  Most of them have several degrees.  They work 12 hour days, six days a week, and they don't notice the news because they have real jobs and just don't have the time to watch it.  They are too busy doing research, holding hearings, meeting with committees, and writing the white papers, the gray papers, the reports, and the recommendations, that become actual policy.

What you get to see, because it's the part that TV covers, is the electoral system and it's far more about entertainment then information, and, at best is only infotainment.  As Frank Zappa once said: Politics is the entertainment branch of American Industry.  It's the 'smoke and mirrors' and the 'bread and circuses' that keep the marching morons marching while the other people go off and make policy.  From the beginning, and it's enshrined in the Constitution from the get-go, the owning/business class has always been institutionalized as the state and the custodians of the entire American social and political process.  'Twas ever thus.  The real business of America is business, and its run by the business class.  (Who also tend to have real jobs and are not watching TV either). 

While the infotainment sector is strictly focused on some right/left split I can assure you that such distinctions are never talked about in the process of governance because they are totally irrelevant.  They don't enter into the discussion because the discussion is about business, and commerce and done in the language of law, not politics.

But, that does beg the question of why is the right so wacked out most of the time.  I think its because they suffer from a bi-polar deal that has repeatedly lead them straight into the arms of paranoia.  The bi-polar deal is two-fold.  First, the documents they worship (Declaration of Independence, Constitution, Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations, Carnegie's Gospel of Wealth) are in fact some of the most liberal documents ever written.  That alone causes them no end of grief.  At the same time they also worship the corporate structure, the scientific and technological base, capitalism, and industrialism, which are the chief engines of the very progress they so hate.  That leads them to a point where they are arriving at the party long after it's over.

When Pat Buchanan called for a "Culture War" it was almost laughable because anyone who studies such things knew that by the point old Pat was calling for that, the war had done come and gone, and they had already lost.  At best, they got to fight some rear-guard action while in full retreat.  And those two notions, one the progress keeps beating them to the punch, and two, that the very core of the nation they want to save by conservatism is in fact opposed to them has made them very parinoid.  And that is a long standing American tradition at this point.*

Which leads us to the present day.  Why are they all seemingly going nuts?  Well they lost.  Twice.  Huge losses that in many ways they will not recover from and are in the process of becoming a rump party that is geographically isolated to the South and parts of the InterMountian West.

I think that when they woke up, they freaked out.  As Chris Rock observed: "George Bush farked up so badly that not only were we able to elect a black man president, but a Black man with a name like "Barack HUSSIEN Obama" the dude couldn't be anymore more in-your -face black unless he was named As-salaam A'lakim Farrakhan!"   

I think when that finally dawned on them, they just lost it and are in the process of spinning out of control.  The GOP of late is part Kristallnacht and very much Nacht der langen Messer, or as we'd say in the States, a circular firing squad.

They think they have found their savior in Sara Palin.  She is their Ronald Reagan with a Rack, but I'm betting it ain't gonna pan out. She probably appeals to teabaggers because she is a moderately-attractive woman who does cutesy-folksy things and obviously puts-out. The Palin in a flag bikini brandishing a shotgun like Bonnie Parker just fuels that fantasy, and after 15-20 years of sexually repressed marriage, it's good spank-bank material for most of them.  But that's all it is, because in the end she values herself more than the movement, and it's going to show, and it's going to hurt.  She's not going to run for President, she's just going to raise money like she is, and skip out with it, like the attention whore grifter she really is.  If the GOP didn't pretend to be the party of superior values, then this wouldn't be an issue. But this very situation is exactly what the GOP is about, and has always been about: a party of hypocritical behavior and wimpy posers and before all is said and done Sara is going to be the poster girl for that.

All the tea-baggers did was pretty much guarantee a Dem majority for the next election (and beyond) because....
I had to stop reading here because I can't really debate against self-delusion.

But you know Laura, it's not self-delusion, it's based on a solid knowlage of who really swings elections these days, and what appeals to them.  Do you know who they are?  They get called 'soccer moms' in shorthand, but they are in reality middle/upper middle class women, which college degrees and professional careers.  They swing elections because they vote and have little to no sense of party identity, so they vote on issues.  And none of this is going to appeal to them, no more than the antics of the Left 50 years ago brought anyone over to their side.  They are not going to side with someone who is standing in public in some colonial Williamsburg outfit with teabags dangling from a hat and a misspelled sign that puts cross hairs on their political propaganda while threatening to bring a gun next time.

And, if you want proof - Republican fundraising (this in the Party of Money) is at an all time low.

* - Richard Hofstadter penned an essay in the early 60s for Harper's called "The Paranoid Style in American Politics."  Check it out, brilliant stuff.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Dana Lane

Just go back and watch both sides arguing for and against healthcare. One side was for the people and wasn't lying and the other were totally full of lies even to the point of using a term like Armageddon. I couldn't believe some of the lies that were passed around during the healthcare debate and after it became law. It is incredible. I expect lies and fear mongering from the extremes on both sides but the leaders of the party? Bizarre.
============
Former TS Separatist who feels deep regret
http://www.transadvocate.com/category/dana-taylor
  •  

Julie Marie

Quote from: tekla on April 02, 2010, 12:47:18 PM
But, that does beg the question of why is the right so wacked out most of the time.  I think its because they suffer from a bi-polar deal that has repeatedly lead them straight into the arms of paranoia.

Add to that many right wingers are fervently religious, mostly christian.  Baptized and raised catholic, I can tell you there's a high degree of masochism in catholicism.  Suffering is a good thing.

Walk into a christian church and right there, front and center, is a crucifix, and that crucifix may also have an emaciated man hanging on it with nails pounded through his hands and feet, a stab wound in his side and a thorny crown pushed into his skull.  Some will even have this in living color, complete with blood pouring from the wounds.

Imagine the impression this has on a child.  While we should rate this PG-13 or maybe even R for violence, we instead worship this figure and make a point about how much this man suffered for our sins.  And we should suffer too.

I won't even go into the graphics from the stations of the cross!

So here are these people, who have been conditioned (brainwashed) to believe suffering is the thing to do if you want god to love you, while trying to live a normal life.

"Be a masochist or you won't go to heaven!"

And, because they have given so much of their happiness (and their money supporting the christian religions), they refuse to accept the possibility that maybe they don't have to suffer.  But since misery loves company, or they simply can't admit they were taken, they prefer to drag as many people into this belief rather than consider for even a second that this concept is very disordered.

So if you add that to what you said Kat, you have some pretty messed up people being pulled every which way. 

There's an old joke, "I'm looking for a religion that doesn't make me feel guilty."  It's funny because it's true.

As for the rest of what you wrote Kat, brilliant!

BTW, Palin is appealing to them also because she conveys this image she's a good christian woman.  Then dresses like a bad girl.  (note the leather jacket)  I think that dual image on an attractive woman appeals to a lot conservatives who are too uptight to let loose.


When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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tekla

Well, combine the hot MLIF dominatrix look with the recent revelation that the RNC spent money watching some faux lesbian S&M show in LA - and you pretty much have it.  And that sure carries all that 'pain, guilt and suffering' right along with it.

I'm suggesting the new RNC slogan:
Oh spank me mommy, I've been soooooooo bad!

And, as I would up saying this morning to some friends, 'that despite how much this will hurt, and eventually end, most of the insurance industry, and bring the health care industry under the same kind of regulation that other industries have, if you think for a New York Second that the Congress of the United States passes some sort of massive 'anti-business' legislation then you just have no idea of who is in Congress, or how they got there, and who bought that ticket for them.'
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Tammy Hope

Quote
There has not been an armed left wing militia terrorist cell in the USA since the Black Panthers, and before that, never.   
Two words - Weather Underground.

I'm not even going to bother with the rest.

(and no, there were not only two either but there's no point in making a list)


Post Merge: April 02, 2010, 07:14:12 PM

Quote from: Dana Lane on April 02, 2010, 02:04:06 PM
Just go back and watch both sides arguing for and against healthcare. One side was for the people and wasn't lying and the other were totally full of lies even to the point of using a term like Armageddon. I couldn't believe some of the lies that were passed around during the healthcare debate and after it became law. It is incredible. I expect lies and fear mongering from the extremes on both sides but the leaders of the party? Bizarre.

Lies?

Interesting the info that's coming out about the bill now that contradicts what was said of it before, and breaks countless campaign pledges.

I'm stunned anyone thinks their side was telling the unvarnished truth - about this or anything else.

And they say religious people have irrational faith...
Disclaimer: due to serious injury, most of my posts are made via Dragon Dictation which sometimes butchers grammar and mis-hears my words. I'm also too lazy to closely proof-read which means some of my comments will seem strange.


http://eachvoicepub.com/PaintedPonies.php
  •  

Julie Marie

Quote from: tekla on April 02, 2010, 06:35:18 PMI'm suggesting the new RNC slogan:
Oh spank me mommy, I've been soooooooo bad!
...with a picture of Palin on a Harley wearing skin tight leathers. 

It's just a matter of time!

When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
  •  

Dana Lane

Quote from: Laura Hope on April 02, 2010, 07:11:39 PM
Two words - Weather Underground.

I'm not even going to bother with the rest.

(and no, there were not only two either but there's no point in making a list)


Post Merge: April 02, 2010, 07:14:12 PM

Lies?

Interesting the info that's coming out about the bill now that contradicts what was said of it before, and breaks countless campaign pledges.

I'm stunned anyone thinks their side was telling the unvarnished truth - about this or anything else.

And they say religious people have irrational faith...

Okay, unvarnished truth. How the hell can you argue that right? How about fear mongering? How about the outright lies from the GOP that were designed to cast fear in hopes of getting the bill killed? Or maybe Fox News didn't show that stuff. :) sorry couldn't resist.
============
Former TS Separatist who feels deep regret
http://www.transadvocate.com/category/dana-taylor
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tekla

Well, you can always argue the truth.  In the end it wins out.

Two words - Weather Underground.

Nah, I prefer the original - non PC name, Weathermen, taken from the Bob Dylan song Subterranean Homesick Blues with it's line: You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.  They only became the Weather Underground after some of the women complained that Weathermen was sexist.  They are the first group I mentioned by the way.  And at that, they were not a militia style group in the way the Black Panthers were, they were just bomber-style terrorists.  BTW, how did that all work out for them with all that stuff, same way that it will for the extreme right, it turned people off and drove them away in droves.  They killed more of themselves then the did 'the enemy' but of course, being dumb leftists, they tended to phone in warnings before the bombs went off.

And I know I'm absolutely right about the real business of government not being a political deal, but a business/commerce/law/technique (statistical, modeling, statistical analysis) deal.  I spend 3 years at the DoE and can't remember a single political conversation except during lunch.  We tended to talk about energy (imagine that) technology conversion, dual-use technologies, business incubation, start-ups, venture capital, and marketing plans.

As for Sara on the bike, pretty much what I said: wimpy posers.  I mean is that her bike?  Can she drive it?  No?  Then get your butt off of it, or gas, grass or ass baby, nobody rides for free.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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SarahFaceDoom

And of course you had the RAF before the Weathermen.  Which I only bring up because the recent Baader-Meinhof Complex movie is pretty fantastic.  And for further viewing, Fassbinder's Third Generation.
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Tammy Hope

Quote from: Dana Lane on April 02, 2010, 10:06:45 PM
Okay, unvarnished truth. How the hell can you argue that right? How about fear mongering? How about the outright lies from the GOP that were designed to cast fear in hopes of getting the bill killed? Or maybe Fox News didn't show that stuff. :) sorry couldn't resist.

I'll just have to agree to disagree if you are that convinced. there is WAY too much info concerning that bill to begin to debate here, especially given that my general policy is that arguing politics online is a no-win scenario no matter how good one might be at it.

I'll only say this - and realize in the saying that you will flat out disagree and take the exact opposite position:

It's not fear mongering or scare tactics if it's true, or if it's at least reasonably possible. It's my position that all that the right said in opposition to that bill was at a minimum reasonably possible.

I suppose we are all now condemned to find out who was right. I guess we'll have to table the discussion for a decade or so.
Disclaimer: due to serious injury, most of my posts are made via Dragon Dictation which sometimes butchers grammar and mis-hears my words. I'm also too lazy to closely proof-read which means some of my comments will seem strange.


http://eachvoicepub.com/PaintedPonies.php
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