Election Time

[justmeinoz]

Actually Tekla I thought you would have picked up that I am Australian not English. (Bit like calling a Mississipian a Yankee)
Remember "That's not a knife, THIS is a knife!"? We spell Labour with  'our' as well.

Under our  Westminster system the PM can be dumped at any time by his own Party, and a replacement appointed to lead the govt to the next election. It has happened here at both the Fedreral and State levels more than once.

Was that one of Gordon Brown's problems as regards acceptance by the electorate?

[Cindy]

Hi Tekla,
I find a lot of humour in the discussion. I get so many assignments written in well presented Word documents using USA spelling that I just red line them.

Sorry Kat I think you may still be recovering from the party. I hope it had a lot of humoursome occasions .

Cindy

[rejennyrated]

I think those of you who, like Tekla, are so confidently reporting the death of the British system may well be premature in your pronouncements.

I for one got precisely the result I wanted and indeed tactically voted for. Right up to the last minute I was swiching my allegiance about trying hard to create this exact result.

Why? Because in a world of dimishing resources the age of constant expansion and empire is over. Today the politcial reality is that we either have to learn to work together to solve some hideous issues like population control, without which the species is doomed within 100 years, or we go under.

Under those circumstances politicians (and indeed voters) who are so partisan and polarised that they can not learn to compromise and cooperate have outlived their usefulness. We can no longer AFFORD your bickering.

I hope that events may yet surprise people.

[justmeinoz]

True, Jenny.  And as Sir Humphrey Appleby pointed out, the Civil Service let the Politicians think they run things, while making sure they don't get near the steering wheel too often!

[spacial]

Strangely, Jenny, that also happened in my constituiency. Until 1992, this was a pretty much Tory stronghold. Since then it has been held by the Liberals. Labour barely keep their deposit.

The general opinion is that people personally like our Liberal MP and anything is better than having the Torys back.

As I was trying to point out to kat, no system is perfect, or near it. Any system is only going to be as good as those that use it.

The Westminster system has been implimented in a number of other states, including Israel!!

But take, for example, two African states, Zimbabwe and Mauritius. Both with, essentially, identical governmental systems.

Mauritius is a tiny island, 5000 or so miles away from Africa. It has few resources. Yet its government is generally very stable. It's economy is remarkably successful and there are well educated Mauritians living in most parts of the world.

Zimbabwe has enormous resources of almost every kind. It once produced more food than any other state. It is potentially the wealthiest. Yet because one man has refused to accept the limitations of his office, the place is in ruins.

The strength of any system, including the US, is the willingness of those in power to accept their limitations.

The problem for Zimbabwe is that the president refuses to accept that his role is a figurehead as the president of Mauritius does.

Mugabie can command enormous support from huge numbers of young men who are only too willing to form themselves into lawless gangs. The results are patient.

The president of Mauritius could quite easily summon a similar mob. (By convention, the president is a Muslim, muslims make up about 15% of the population. The Prime Minister is a Hindu, though occasionally a Christian. Hindus make up over 50% of the population while Christians make up about 30%)

Having that amount of power and using it are two entirely different things.

The instabilities in the US become apparent when we look at the numerous periods where the bulk of the populace has become encouraged to become unnecessarily fearful of invasion.

Here in Europe, and especially in the British Isles, such generalised mob rule is rare. The last time it happened here was the 17th century. Our bigget problem is our apathy. We fail to see psychopaths until the damage has already been done. This is certainly the case with Tony Blair.

[Pippa]

During the Second World War, Churchill ran a national government of all the parties.   You have to remember that between 1939 and 1945, everyone had one big focus, Britain surviving as an independant nation and winning World War II.  All parties agreed to suspend Politics until the war was over.  Although things are bad, I do not think that the political parties are willing to suspend politics now.   The situation we are closer to now is the coalition government of Ramsay Macdonald during the depression.   His government was a disaster and lasted 18 months.

I hope the conservatives and the Lib Dems can come to agreement but the markewts are not going to like a minority government or a weak coalition.   As for the Labour Rainbow coalition of Uncle Tom Cobly and all, it is a complete non starter.   As someone said yeasterday, Gordon Brown cannot get his own party to agree with him, let alone a dozen disperate parties.   The nationalists and the Northern Ireland parties have made it quite clear that the price of their acceptance is increases in budgets for their parts of the UK.   We would have pork barrel politics with no pork in the barrel and English voters would be subsidising Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to an even greater degree than they do now.   No cuts in Scotland and Wales, even bigger cuts in England.

I also think that a lot of voters who have not experienced a coalition (the last was in 1974) or who do not know political history will be changing their minds about coalitions.   I spent half an hour speaking to a girl in my office who had no idea how coalition government worked.   She expected a government on Friday as usual and was dismayed that it may be a couple of weeks before anything is actually decided.

If we had full proportional representation in the UK we will have this every election.   Most coalition governments take up to 40 days to secure agreement and often the minority parties will hold the major partner to ransom.   I heard a German commentator speaking last night about Germany.   After the second World War the Allies place an electoral system on Germany that ensured that no one group could take over power in the manner the NAZI party had.   THis has lead to continual grand coalitions and the Chancellor Angela Merkel, although popular abroad, is despised by her own party supporters in Germany.

It is extremely rare for coalitions to provide good government or to survive for full terms.   PR in Britain will mean instability and continual weak government.   I think this result may be the end of PR not its beginning.
Post Merge: May 09, 2010, 06:26:02 AM
Also re Zimbabwe,   Mugabe is a despot who abuses the political system to meet his own requirements.   Every election in Zimbabwe for the last 20 years has been rigged.   Like a lot of African politics, which tribe you belong to gives your position in society.   Mugabe and his thugs belong to one tribe, most of the opposition come from another.   During British rule, Zimbabwe was one of the most productive parts of the empire.   It has vast mineral wealth (now being sold cheap to China) and is generally extremely fertile.   Properly run the country would be up their with New Zealand and Australia, rich stable and prosperous.   Instead it is a mess propped up by South Africa's ANC President.   All Zimbabwe's electricity comes from South Africa.   If the ANC pulled the plug, Mugabe wouldn't last a week.

[justmeinoz]

Thanks Pippa, I had forgotten about Ulster when I mentioned the SNP and PC earlier.  There is no way Paisley's supporters would favour the LD or Labour over the Tories from what I have read here in Oz. It sounds like there will be a lot of bargaining to be done yet.

We have a PR system in Senate and State Upper House  elections here and it always takes a while to work out who has won a fair number of the seats.  The lower House election at both levels are done on the Preferential system, except in Tasmania which has to go through a form of PR too. 

The advantage with Preferences is, as I said earlier, is that the Parties can say who they would like their second preference vote to go to, but you can direct your votes however you like. All the horse trading is done before hand, and is quite open.

Also the way things work, people like the BNP never get enough overall support to get in, as all the main parties will suggest putting them in last place.

Basically you list your vote from 1 down to 6, or whatever with you favourite as 1 and your least favourite as 6. If no-one gets a majority of 1's , then they start distributing the last candidate's 2nd choices, and so on until there is a winner. It's a lot easier to do than describe!

[spacial]

Just read an interesting quip.

The people have spoken, but they don't know what we've said.

[rejennyrated]

And it looks as though we have a new government:

A full coalition between Lib Dems and Conservatives looks like the final outcome.

David Cameron is on his way to the palace to be sworn in right now.

If we get the coalition I could not be happier. Both conservative and Lib Dems have some positives to contribute to this, both have some crazy bits. The compromise which emerges should be pretty well exactly what I hoped for.

[Pica Pica]

And there we go, David Cameron sworn in...very strange.

[RebeccaFog]

On a political note, I'm starting my own country and cede from UK juridstriction.

I've come close to writing the U.N. to demand that I be released from being an American citizen so that I can be a citizen of the universe. I can't conceive being a part of tribal nationalism. I have no issue with following local laws and paying local taxes but I can't stand the notion that I have to belong to a tribe based on geography.

My idea is that individuals across the earth should have the right to be human over being some nationality.

Perhaps we can refer to ourselves as 'Terrans'.

[lisagurl]

And there we go, David Cameron sworn in...very strange.

Not strange at all. He will lock step with globalization very easily.

[Pica Pica]

I went to parliament today on a school trip with da kids. Most fun.

[Chrissty]

I went to parliament today on a school trip with da kids. Most fun.

..yes.. a rare opportunity to see more than 6 people (and less than 5 sleeping) in the House of Commons....

[spacial]

Some years ago, my wife and I were invited to lunch in Parliment. To be honest, I've eaten better. But after, we were given the full tour of both houses and the Hall, which was nice. But the place was completely empty.

Though it certainly does have a lot of atmosphere.

[justmeinoz]

We have had a State by-election in NSW, caused by the sitting Labour member getting caught out in an expenses type scandal and lying about it.

It looks like the Liberals have won the seat for the first time in nearly 40 years with a swing of about 25%. Given Penrith is in the Labour heartland of Western Sydney there is already talk of ditching Kevin Rudd as PM, and putting in Julia Gillard.  Not quite as unpopular as Gordon Brown, but heading that way.

Seeing that the ALP hierarchy are saying they are backing him 100%, and there is no challenge in sight, I think he's gone! It will be interesting to see whether we have a Federal election this year after all. (It can be any time after November.)

Bit like a football coach getting the "full support of the club board". They are right behind him so they can push him under a truck.

[Cindy]

We have had a State by-election in NSW, caused by the sitting Labour member getting caught out in an expenses type scandal and lying about it.

It looks like the Liberals have won the seat for the first time in nearly 40 years with a swing of about 25%. Given Penrith is in the Labour heartland of Western Sydney there is already talk of ditching Kevin Rudd as PM, and putting in Julia Gillard.  Not quite as unpopular as Gordon Brown, but heading that way.

Seeing that the ALP hierarchy are saying they are backing him 100%, and there is no challenge in sight, I think he's gone! It will be interesting to see whether we have a Federal election this year after all. (It can be any time after November.)

Bit like a football coach getting the "full support of the club board". They are right behind him so they can push him under a truck.

Yes I think it sounds days rather than weeks. Rather typical knife in the back Aussie politics. But Tony Abbott as an alternative

Cindy

[V M]

I need to get some sleep... I thought the thread was called "Erection Time" 

[Cindy]

I need to get some sleep... I thought the thread was called "Erection Time" 

Typical I wonder what you think an election poll is?

Cindy

[lisagurl]

Britain is "on the road to ruin" unless action is taken in the Budget on Tuesday to cut the deficit, Chancellor George Osborne has told the BBC.