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Male privileges lost

Started by jayjay, February 24, 2010, 08:14:19 PM

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kyril

That's not a privilege. It's condescension. And it damages the perception of women in those jobs. I was in the Navy for 4 years, and throughout that time I met the male physical fitness standards every time. But because I was (seen to be) female, everyone simply assumed that I'd only met the lower standards - that I was slower, weaker, less fit, and generally not as worthy of being there as the guys I worked with. It didn't matter how hard I worked or how much I excelled (at my physical fitness tests, at my job-related tests, or on the job) - I was seen as somehow "less than" because the standards for me were lower.

When I was a (civilian) firefighter, the standards for men and women were the same because they were objective, job-related requirements: "You must be able to carry this 250-pound dummy" or "You must be able to heave this 2-inch pressurized hose up stairs wearing 45 pounds of bulky wet gear and a breathing apparatus." And when the standards are equal, women are treated as equals. Lower standards are just 'the soft bigotry of low expectations.'


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Little Dragon

Quote from: kyril on May 14, 2010, 02:58:11 PM
That's not a privilege. It's condescension. And it damages the perception of women in those jobs. I was in the Navy for 4 years, and throughout that time I met the male physical fitness standards every time. But because I was (seen to be) female, everyone simply assumed that I'd only met the lower standards - that I was slower, weaker, less fit, and generally not as worthy of being there as the guys I worked with. It didn't matter how hard I worked or how much I excelled (at my physical fitness tests, at my job-related tests, or on the job) - I was seen as somehow "less than" because the standards for me were lower.

When I was a (civilian) firefighter, the standards for men and women were the same because they were objective, job-related requirements: "You must be able to carry this 250-pound dummy" or "You must be able to heave this 2-inch pressurized hose up stairs wearing 45 pounds of bulky wet gear and a breathing apparatus." And when the standards are equal, women are treated as equals. Lower standards are just 'the soft bigotry of low expectations.'

I have the exact same opinions as you on this, I think if you have to be able to be this strong or that fast in order to do your job, then it must be same for everybody (not limiting to gender). I think it is kind of condescending to be thought of as less-than capable :( If we both think this, then why does it still exist? I think in the UK the firefighters and police forces and armed forces give women "easier" fitness exams - though I've not checked that up. (im certain about the armed forces however :P)

You know this is no different from being smart enough to work as a surgeon, every applicant has to be intelligent enough to do the job.
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maidenprincess

the only thing i dislike is not being able to go alone anywhere without feeling paranoid im gonna get attacked or raped.  it sucks.
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pretty pauline

Quote from: Torn1990 on May 12, 2010, 03:37:33 PM
But I don't think women are necessarily weak.  If girls can't lift up a box i kind of just find it funny inside but ultimately it's irking because to me it definitely seems like they're just getting male attention that way!
Plus, i've spotted many of those girls lifting quite independently when no one else is around. Just a secret, girls are fine.

I absolutely agree with you, but then guys just love being macho and playing the big strong man, as for lifting boxes well to be honest I hold my hands up, Im guilty, yes I can lift a box, but I have played my feminine vulnerability, struggling in my heels, and in my experience it nearly always works, guys just love impressing a lady, Im just a ''vulnerable lady'' being helped out by a nice big strong gentleman lol am I wrong?? Guys just love that dominant role, how can I say this without being misunderstood, but just sometimes in certain situations, I actually like being ''weak & vulnerable'' it makes me feel more feminine, I get more respect and treated more gentlely as a lady and just being a girl, a guy can be rough, mean and rude to another guy, but a guy who is a gentleman will never do that to a girl and never to a lady.
p
If your going thru hell, just keep going.
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pretty pauline

Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on May 14, 2010, 04:06:12 PM
No you don't. No one respects you for being weak and vulnerable.

ekkk I knew it, I knew it, Im being misunderstood lol
p
If your going thru hell, just keep going.
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Kay

Privilege:  A right or immunity granted as a peculiar benefit, advantage, or favor.   (Webster)
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Honestly, I think this thread has gotten a bit ridiculous. 
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Just because there are downsides to a "privilege" doesn't mean it isn't a privilege.
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Yes, it is a privilege not to need to train for the higher requirements.   Making something easier is a privilege.  Whether you view that as desirable or not is a different question entirely.  It is as the definition states above.  Are there downsides to how you are viewed later?  Certainly, but it doesn't make it any less of a privilege.
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Take male privilege.  Sure, men in higher-up business positions are paid more (personally, I've never seen that privilege anywhere I've worked in the last 20 years...but we'll go with it).  So...like the above, can I now deny that such is a privilege because there is an expectation that the man will sacrifice his time with family and children for the job?  (my dad certainly had to)  If the man wants to watch his children grow...it doesn't appear like much of a privilege.  It's more of a straight-jacket...and the sacrifice seems ill-worth the cost.  But being the breadwinner is the expectation...regardless of the emotional cost.  But it's still a "privilege."
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With every privilege there is a price.  Some are up front.  Some are subtle.  Some hit you in the back end.  Nothing in this world is free. 
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Personally, there isn't any aspect of male privilege that I have ever found useful.  No aspect of it that I have ever desired from the time of my youth.  The costs are always far far too high. 
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Little Dragon

Quote from: pretty pauline on May 14, 2010, 04:17:54 PM
ekkk I knew it, I knew it, Im being misunderstood lol
p

Don't worry Pauline, I understand you (and so do a lor of other girls) :P I'd actually agree with you totally, i love feeling weak and vulnerable when I want to because it DOES feel feminine! :P It's just something that makes me feel girly and thats that.. It has nothing to do with how society wants me to be, I''ve made up my own mind with no external influences just like how wearing pinks and whites make me feel like a girl too. If feminists want to scrutinize me for my OWN opinions about how much I love feeling like a girl, then they aren't really in the defense of women are they? :P

However, having just said that there are times when I don't like feeling weak and vulnerable, thats where your martial arts comes into play (you do know martial arts, dont you?). I'd personally feel utterly gross if I was strong and manly all the time.

OK So could soebody make a conclusion about whether or not athletic prowess is a male privilege?
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Kay

ƃuıxǝʌ:  Nothing in that article refutes what I posted.  You can try to re-label something in a different package because you think it's more pleasing to the eyes.  (ie:  female privilege = benevolent sexism) (Freedom fighter or terrorist?  They're both militia...the rest is just political spin.) But it doesn't make it anything different than it was in the first place.  It still fits the same definition.  Whatever you view as the source of that privilege...whether desirable or not...it doesn't change what it is.  It's still a privilege...with all the costs and benefits that accompany it.
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Frankly, I will agree that the source of much of male and female privilege is sexism.  I don't see it as a desirable thing...from either end of the looking glass...but it is what it is.

However, the difference is that the status quo for men is one which grants them status and power in both the public and private spheres, whereas the status quo for women is one which limits their power to the much smaller, and more specific, domestic sphere.
While the wording of the above is quite slanted, again...it's different advantages and disadvantages...in different spheres.  Just because you value the public sphere more...doesn't mean everyone does.  If a man wants domestic considerations, and doesn't care about the public ones (reversal of situation)...the sexism is generally ignored.  Though it is still just as much a privilege denied.  I've felt that form of sexism...from women...my whole life.  Sexism isn't just a one-way street.  But that's getting way off topic here...the topic being "privilege."
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It doesn't cease to be a privilege simply because you throw the word "sexism" out there.  I'm not going to pitty the poor feminist who thinks that any privilege they have is negligible...while every privilege they don't have is significant.  The "don't look here"...."this isn't really a privilege"....without acknowleging what they do have to me is extremely dishonest.  (All privileges come at a cost.)  Using the same logic, I could completely deny that men have any privilege...simply because those privileges don't reside in the sphere to which I desire.  Both extremes are similarly disingenuous.
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Yes, sexism is real.  Yes, it is damaging to both men and women.  I'm not disagreeing with that at all.  But regarding privilege, I stand by my previous post.
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tekla

Either way, most of this stuff is just the trivial foibles of the entitled affluent class who have the luxury of indulging in such pursuits.  Minimum wage is minimum wage regardless of gender.  The jobs you are talking about are in part reserved for people with high levels of education, and on an entire different level where sex makes a lot less difference than education and class do.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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FairyGirl

I'm fairly certain that as Tekla mentioned, some of our lives were never such that it honestly offered any great advantage to miss in its absence, but whatever. Endlessly arguing the point here offers no great advantage either. lol ;) But what about being female in a "man's world"?

From the unique perspective that we do share, the following are some of my own personal observations as a woman interacting with the public at large, and may very well not reflect anyone elses personal experience.

However, I have noticed that in general people tend to be nicer, more polite, and more open with women than with men, and this is especially true when interacting with other women. With men, people are nice enough but there is that sense that it is reserved, that they are holding back, that there is a degree of guardedness. As I said, women especially seem to be much nicer and more open to other women. For one thing, there isn't that unspoken acknowledgment that a man may be stronger, more aggressive, and therefore may present more of a potential threat than a women. I'm not talking about some anecdotal examples that might be given to the contrary, I'm saying that this seems in my experience to be the general way of things. Today at the doctor's office finishing up my pre-surgery tests (which took about 3 hours), I was well cared for by a female nurse and a female medical technician with whom between the tests I chatted about anything and everything, and I was made very much aware of that natural camaraderie that women automatically share simply because we are women. This is by no means the first time I've noticed this, and I find it fascinating.

Yes, the man on the phone calls me "dear" or even "sweetheart"; I'm quite sure he would never say such a thing to another man. Personally I like it as long as he isn't being too forward or vulgar. I thoroughly enjoy being treated like a lady, and I'm old-fashioned enough to appreciate a degree of chivalry (not chauvinism). I acquiesce when a man acts as though he thinks I'm dumb just because I'm female, for not only do I know better, but I know that all women know better. And if I can use that to my advantage, then who is really the dumb one here? Women share a common bond that men are completely clueless about, and it has to do with the shared experience of simply being female. Female bonding is something else again to which the male counterpart doesn't come close, what with mens perpetual hangups about being perceived as weak or somehow less than heterosexual. (To any guys reading this, well, present company excluded of course. You are reading in a transgender support forum after all ;))

Male privilege no doubt exists, in a man's world, where women still have to live and compete. But in a woman's world, things can be seen from a different point of view. To me feminism has never meant giving up my femininity to compete with men on their level, on a playing field created and dominated by men, and trying to "out-male" them at their own game. Men and women are fundamentally different, and until the glacially slow progress of social change brings about true equality of the sexes, meantime it is to our advantage as the underdogs of a patriarchal society to learn how to circumvent the silly rules by which men think they control us, and use them for our own gain without ever in any way resorting to behaving as they do.

Girls rule, boys drool.
If I keep a green bough in my heart, then the singing bird will come.
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glendagladwitch

Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on May 14, 2010, 07:02:31 PM
Why do you think weakness and vulnerability are seen as feminine traits?

Because they are. 

In the state of nature, those women who were physically capable of resisting the unwanted advances of men were naturally deselected.  Thus, weakness and vulnerability in women became a dominant genetic trait.

That's also why there are no ugly or fat women.  Oh, wait.
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Little Dragon

Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on May 14, 2010, 07:02:31 PMWhy do you think weakness and vulnerability are seen as feminine traits?

Yet again, you misunderstand the comment I made, like the countless other times you have..

I wasnt even in the slightest bit suggesting that being weak and vulnerable should be a feminine trait, i was informing you of what i personally think makes me feel girly :) This is another case of "just because you don't feel that way doesn't mean everybody else shouldn't" fortunately, you aren't going to dictate to me what can or cannot make me feel like a girl, lol. And I'm certain that a lot of girls in this world feel the same way :)

I strongly suggest you read slower, hon, don't just rush straight to the "reply" button in order to troll people faster, it only serves to make you look silly :) And you divert from the threads topic :police: (if you'd like to continue this, I strongly suggest you PM me instead)
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Little Dragon

Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on May 14, 2010, 08:29:55 PM
Why does being weak and vulnerable make you feel more 'girly'?

Neurochemistry, of course ;D I know youre wanting to blame society, but its really programmed in our brains to be this way, our species evolved that way. I'm girly, therefore I am.

Allow me to stress the point I made before, that I only like it when I choose to feel weak and vulnerable. Being forced to feel such is rather scary.
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