Rally Congress on ENDA

[PanoramaIsland]

Heh, special privileges.

Surely you of all people realize that trans and queer folks are discriminated against. ENDA is meant to fight that inequity, not to give us "special privileges." I shouldn't have to explain that.

Yeah, overpopulation is a problem. What does that have to do with our dependence on the activities of those around us, regardless of whether we like how those people do business - i.e., our dependence on the Machine?

You're extraordinarily good at evading points and not answering questions. Like a politician, almost?


Incidentally, I'm curious - what do you think of Rand Paul?

[lisagurl]

Incidentally, I'm curious - what do you think of Rand Paul?

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He is taking advantage of dumbed down America. Anyone who is not a career politician can win this year. Common sense is too simple. The Government is run on greed.

What does that have to do with our dependence on the activities of those around us, regardless of whether we like how those people do business - i.e., our dependence on the Machine?

The machine is not our friend it is our master. We need to create a world that takes the machine power away.  The radicals ( The Invisible Committee) write " The Coming Insurrection " but it will never work as it relies on old ideas. The only way to get improvement is to get people to be responsible for their community and spend time correcting ethical misdeeds. You have to put your life and welfare on the line for the greater good of humanity and set examples. Problem is people have been trained to be greedy. We need a certain amount of personal gain but not at the expense of of others.

[PanoramaIsland]

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He is taking advantage of dumbed down America. Anyone who is not a career politician can win this year. Common sense is too simple. The Government is run on greed.

The machine is not our friend it is our master. We need to create a world that takes the machine power away.  The radicals ( The Invisible Committee) write " The Coming Insurrection " but it will never work as it relies on old ideas. The only way to get improvement is to get people to be responsible for their community and spend time correcting ethical misdeeds. You have to put your life and welfare on the line for the greater good of humanity and set examples. Problem is people have been trained to be greedy. We need a certain amount of personal gain but not at the expense of of others.

Wait, did you just go from saying that you don't care about ENDA because you don't think it effects you to exhorting us all to sacrifice for the good of humanity?

[lisagurl]

Wait, did you just go from saying that you don't care about ENDA because you don't think it effects you to exhorting us all to sacrifice for the good of humanity?

I said we do not need the Federal Government forcing a national cultural law on different cultures. When in Rome do as the Romans. In other words it is everyone's personal responsibility not to upset the local culture. So in San Francisco a southerner should keep their mouth shut about the weird people, and in the South the weird people should not act weird to antagonize the locals. It is common sense and not rights. If you do not want to go with the standard of local culture and respect it then do not go there. That is the sacrifice instead of the personal greed of thinking anything goes. Now I prefer to live as a normal women in the south and not a weird trans-gender. I avoid Big cities because I do not like the lewd behavior. If I do go to a city I mind my own business and stay away from getting involved with the locals.

If you go to Iran you cover your hair.

[PanoramaIsland]

Right, because conformism is just the backbone on a strong and healthy democracy, ain't it. Whatever happened to liberty, individual rights, personal choice, critical inquiry? I do what makes sense to me, and avoid doing things that interfere with others' pursuit of happiness. I expect others to do the same. That's not "personal greed," that's liberty.

Why should a Southerner conform just because they're in San Francisco? Sure, they shouldn't go around insulting people, but many bigoted Americans, Southern and otherwise, are very nice, unobtrusive people (on the outside, at least). If they want to open up a chapter of the Daughters of the American Revolution here in SF, start country bands, whatever it is that they do, why not? As long as they're not making life hard for others, I don't see a problem with it.

As far as I'm concerned, weirdness and individuality ought to be cultivated; people should be concerned to critically evaluate and shape their own lives, and do what they find enjoyable. It's not "greedy" for someone to pursue whatever path in life makes them happy, as long as it does no harm to others. Mindless obeisance to the dominant culture makes for zombie people. It is important above all for people to pursue knowledge, critical thinking and analysis, and to be self-cultivated, self-realized and self-aware. That's what liberal representational democracies are all about.

I wouldn't go to Iran, because I'm not willing to cover my hair, and I'm not about to get myself thrown in jail for that. If I were to go to Turkey, though, I certainly would not cover my hair.
This is why I'm opposed to laws banning burqa and niqab. To me, feminism is about personal choice, and robbing women of the choice to wear "modest" clothing is almost as bad as forcing them to wear it. Culture be damned - people deserve no less than to be able to pursue their own happiness, and live up to their own values and standards. For some people, that's wearing a niqab; for others, that's dying their hair green and getting tattoos on their knuckles and up their neck.

Whatever lifts your luggage, I say...

[Jasmine.m]

To get back to ENDA (again), I'll say that without federal legislation and intervention, schools in the south would most likely still be segregated, women and minorities would be unable to vote, and Jim Crow laws would be the norm.

Do federal laws create immediate change in peoples attitudes and bigotry? Hardly. What they do is show future generations that discrimination in this country will not and should not be tolerated. The same is true with ENDA. You and I may never realize it's benefits, but our children certainly will...

[tekla]

As far as I'm concerned, weirdness and individuality ought to be cultivated

Ahh, don't let them fool you, the South generates just as much weirdness as San Fran does.  It's just a different kind of weird.  It's not the weirdness of Wavy Gravy or the radical fairies, or Pink Saturday/HowWeird and Folsom Street, its the weirdness you find in Faulkner, Tennessee Williams and Deliverance.

[PanoramaIsland]

As far as I'm concerned, weirdness and individuality ought to be cultivated

Ahh, don't let them fool you, the South generates just as much weirdness as San Fran does.  It's just a different kind of weird.  It's not the weirdness of Wavy Gravy or the radical fairies, or Pink Saturday/HowWeird and Folsom Street, its the weirdness you find in Faulkner, Tennessee Williams and Deliverance.

That's probably true.

[lisagurl]

That's not "personal greed," that's liberty.

Liberty comes with responsibility.

"

Right, because conformism is just the backbone on a strong and healthy democracy, ain't it

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I do not think democracy works very well with the Demos (mob rule) plus I doubt we need strong anything.

Just as you would not travel to Iran then you should stay in a place that accepts you type of culture. I travel for business only as I like where I live and have no need to leave. The only way I travel is when some one pays me for it. I would not take on a responsibility I do not like to do and I would not compromise my values. But then in a world where anything goes people do not have values.

[LordKAT]

People have values, just not the same values.

[Kaelin]

To sort of latch onto a couple points:

I don't know if weirdness and individuality should necessarily be cultivated, but it can be protected, provided said people aren't (unduly) interfering with someone else's liberty.  If people can express a basic level of (at least) tolerance towards others, then policies like ENDA sort of fall into place.


Telling people to move to where their beliefs, expressions, and values are accepted is problematic (and yes, everyone has their own values -- thinking otherwise simply demonizes others you don't agree with).  Logistics do not make it feasible for people to move according to their politics -- not everyone has the wealth, access, and enough job opportunities to live where they want.  For example, teachers may tend to have different politics than the rest of the country/world, but every area needs teachers.

People's politics can change over time.  Are they supposed to move each time it happens?  Are couples supposed to separate?

Even if adults can segregate themselves and live where they want (and also insulate themselves from "carpetbaggers"), their children will not have that freedom.  Kids aren't necessarily going to grow up and share their parents' beliefs, and said children will probably receive a less diverse education than they do now.  There is a far bit of tyranny that happens at the federal level, but this abuse will be even more visceral at the regional level if you drive people to group off.

Of course, even if people cluster off according to their beliefs into different regions within countries, the countries themselves still have to function.  The overall demographics are still about the same, but people from different groups will be (even) more ignorant of each other.  And for all the work that sorting does, there is no guarantee that federal government will be set up to stop majorities from abusing minorities.

Heck, it's not even as if it takes a majority to subjugate everyone else -- it's not as if a majority of Iranians approve of requiring women to cover their heads, but Mahmoud and company are not about to let an overwhelming majority of its educated class escape their influence.  We are not a world with open borders, never mind borders that can freely change according to tribal needs.

Whether we like it or not, and whether we sort into groups or not, on some level we ultimately have to learn to live with each other.  ENDA, at least in theory, is a step towards this goal.

[lisagurl]

Logistics do not make it feasible for people to move according to their politics -- not everyone has the wealth, access, and enough job opportunities to live where they want.

And Politics do not make it feasible to force people to accept behavior they do not agree with. It would make another unenforceable boondoggle that gives people another reason to topple the Government.

ENDA, at least in theory, is a step toward this goal.

ENDA is not an answer or even close to helping anyone. It will draw stronger divides and in the end lawyers will be the only ones to profit. Each individual proving their worth to the community is the only way to get acceptance. No magic bullets are going to do the work for you.

[lisagurl]

And how are they going to do that when their only realistic job prospect is prostitution?

That is not a job opportunity it is against the law. How about starting your own business? You could volunteer for a charity or some other cause. How about helping your neighbors? etc. The community is not about money. Realistically if you act normal you have just as good of chance of selling your skills as anyone else. The issue is many do not have the wherewithal to get away from your machine and be helpful in the community. The first day I volunteered for a service one of the other volunteers offered me a job.

[Kaelin]

And Politics do not make it feasible to force people to accept behavior they do not agree with. It would make another unenforceable boondoggle that gives people another reason to topple the Government.

"Being TG" is no more of a "behavior" than "being Black" or "being a (cisgendered) woman."  Civil rights movements and the generational effects of their accomplishments have led to improvements for adversely impacted groups, even though the results have not been as good for all groups, and even though perfection is a long way off.

ENDA is not an answer or even close to helping anyone. It will draw stronger divides and in the end lawyers will be the only ones to profit. ... No magic bullets are going to do the work for you.

The Civil Rights Acts of the 1960s and subsequent laws did not end discrimination against the groups they protect, but they did a lot to discourage it, and it made discrimination punishable.  Lawyers do stand to make some money off of court cases, but victims will get the majority share, and employers will get more serious about complying with the law.

Each individual proving their worth to the community is the only way to get acceptance.

Not everyone can prove their worth by starting their own business.  If someone is best suited to being a teacher, it will be prohibitively difficult to show their potential if every school principal can turn them away.  Besides, even if a TG is most-talented in running a business or working freelance, what is to stop anti-TG businesses from boycotting them?  At least with ENDA, a company doesn't have to look responsible for hiring/promoting TGs (if it doesn't want to) when anti-TG people/businesses are considering engaging in commerce.

[lisagurl]

With what? Young trans women of colour are often kicked out of home and forced to live on the streets. They don't have the resources or capital to start a business!
My god is your privilege showing!

You are showing you short sightedness. Churches as well as many organizations help people get started. You do not need money to mow lawns, baby sit, paint, drive a cab, collect deposit bottles and cans, deliver papers, etc. At the employment office there is a waiting area for day labor. Where there is a will there is a way. Just the thought of doing criminal acts shows that a person is not fit for society. They will also offer you work in prison.
Post Merge: May 23, 2010, 07:48:54 PM

Lawyers do stand to make some money off of court cases, but victims will get the majority share, and employers will get more serious about complying with the law.

The blacks are in worse shape than before the law as now the whites also have been dragged down. We have more unemployment and criminals then ever before in history with over 3 million in prison. Morals and ethics have fallen to an all time low. Employers have given up as it is not enjoyable to run a business when the Government tells you how to mind your business.

If someone is best suited to being a teacher, it will be prohibitively difficult to show their potential if every school principal can turn them away.

They can start as a tutor or sub.

Besides, even if a TG is most-talented in running a business or working freelance, what is to stop anti-TG businesses from boycotting them?

The fact that they are better and cheaper, bottom line is what is most important to commerce.

[Kaelin]

At least where I live, churches and "faith-based" organizations have a tendency to refuse TGs and/or deny their identity, and they aren't really equipped to handle every homeless person that comes their way.

Not everyone is particularly well-suited to manual labor jobs (and some will even have a physical disability that makes such work impossible), and such employers may refuse to hire a TG anyway.

Breaking the law isn't something many people typically consider unless circumstances leave them no other outlets for survival, or the law is (or at least appears) unjust.  Some people will steal food, or house squat if they cannot find a place to live, and while their behavior certainly causes harm, it can certainly be justified.  And when people staged sit-ins during the civil rights movement, they were breaking the law, but they were also doing the right thing.

As for prison, I don't think slave-wage prison work is going to matter if the person is refused protective custody and gets murdered for being TG.  And even if they survive, carrying a rap sheet is going to make it difficult for the person to prove how awesome they are.

"The blacks are in worse shape than before the law as now the whites also have been dragged down."

I don't see many Blacks hanging from trees nowadays.  How is it in your neck of the woods (pun definitely not intended)?

"We have more unemployment and criminals then ever before in history with over 3 million in prison."

At least in the US, crime was far higher in the 80s and early 90s than it is today.  Our prisons are bigger than ever, and that's largely because our population is growing and out court systems tend to give longer sentences nowadays.

They can start as a tutor or sub.

And they can still be refused anyway.

The fact that they are better and cheaper, bottom line is what is most important to commerce.

Even for industries where it is the most important factor, it will not be the only factor.  And if a particular business has a low profit margin to begin with, then the person can get low-balled too much to turn a profit, and the business will fail.  Products made by a TG run business don't get the same demand curve as non-TG run business, even if the product is completely unrelated to the person who makes it.

[Nygeel]

I've tried pretty hard on a state level to pass GENDA (the gender inclusive ENDA for NYS). I do support a gender inclusive ENDA on a federal level but feel that it's slightly easier to achieve on a state level. The past bunch of years (I think maybe 5 years) I've been going to Albany talking to legislators, telling my story spitting out facts, etc. Of course, every year it's either not brought to vote or isn't voted into law. I could go on and on about it at a state level and how screwed up it is but that would be pointless.

I live in an area where the surrounding counties have gender protection for employment. In the past I have been denied a job as a trans man (I consider myself "non-passing" because I pass way less than half the time). I've been denied food for being trans (by trans I mean gender expression). I've been unemployed for about 5 months and feel as if mentioning that I am trans before employment is the reason why. I cannot afford to get my name legally changed. I cannot afford hormones. I can barely cover my bills with my unemployment money. 

I want this to pass so I don't have to feel as concerned about being trans at work (if/when I get a job). It would be great if people would naturally over look my being trans but that's not going to happen right away.

[lisagurl]

Not everyone is particularly well-suited to manual labor jobs (and some will even have a physical disability that makes such work impossible), and such employers may refuse to hire a TG anyway.

The "lost my home and job" segment has grown with the bad economy. Most of these people would dearly love to get back on their feet, and into a safe apartment and job. Since 23% of the homeless are children, they probably fall into this category as well.

--- Some of our Veterans are also on our streets. Sometimes they aren't ready to rejoin society, preferring the no-life or no-obligations of the street, to a stressful life they can't handle, or refuse to fit into.

--- The mentally ill have long been a major segment of the homeless, including some Veterans. Sometimes they refuse the "conditions" attached to reintegrating into society, like taking their head-meds and getting a job.

--- Some homeless are more or less healthy, but prefer the no-obligation type of life on the street. They want no part of the rules and regulations of society, or the requirements of getting a job and an apartment.

--- Some homeless have reached that bottom rung of drug addiction: they've been thru all the rehab programs available, lost everything they owned, and still can't stay away from the lure of illegal drugs.

--- Some are on disability, their monthly checks arriving at the local Salvation Army or Homeless Shelter. They usually spend all their money on drugs within the first weeks, and are back sleeping on the streets until the next disability check arrives.

So this is a complicated array of problems to be addressed, and no one answer will fit all the homeless. And there is that segment of the homeless who PREFER life on the streets, and enticing them back into society is nearly impossible

In the past I have been denied a job as a trans man (I consider myself "non-passing" because I pass way less than half the time). I've been denied food for being trans (by trans I mean gender expression). I've been unemployed for about 5 months and feel as if mentioning that I am trans before employment is the reason why. I cannot afford to get my name legally changed. I cannot afford hormones. I can barely cover my bills with my unemployment money. 

Fact is you can not at this time afford to transition. Play your old role till you can afford to transition. The Government has no obligation to pay for your survival or transition.

[Jasmine.m]

The Government has no obligation to pay for your transition.

True

The Government has no obligation to pay for your survival.

Not true. In this day and age, no one should be left to simply perish...

[Nygeel]

Fact is you can not at this time afford to transition. Play your old role till you can afford to transition. The Government has no obligation to pay for your survival or transition.

I've been living as male full time for 3 years. I really do not want to work as female under my legal name.