is my transgendered coworker using the right bathroom?

[PanoramaIsland]

Why is it so hard to set a gender-neutral dress code? You don't have to abolish dress codes. Just don't discriminate by gender.

And it is, plainly, on its face discriminatory to say that a male must wear one set of clothes and a female must wear another. I don't care what the Supreme Court says. Consider any other protected class. Could I, as an employer, require all my black employees to wear yellow shirts and all my white employees to wear blue shirts? Would anyone anywhere consider that to be remotely acceptable? What if I wanted to require all employees over 40 to wear pants or ankle-length skirts and all employees under 40 to wear miniskirts or short-shorts? No? I think you get the picture. The "equal burden" test doesn't fly any more than "separate but equal."

And there is literally no legitimate argument for it. The arguments boil down to (a) history (recall that segregation had historical arguments for it too), and (b) other people's discriminatory aesthetic preferences. There's not even a vaguely-reasonable-sounding privacy argument like there is for bathrooms. It's just "I like to look at women (and women only) dressed appealingly for my sexual tastes." Which is no different and no less harassing/objectifying/inappropriate than "I want to look at young people (and young people only) dressed appealingly for my sexual tastes."

More or less, yes.
Practically speaking, of course, a single uniform would lead to the complete and total disappearance of skirts from uniforms. Probably what would happen is that employees would be given the "choice" between a pants uniform and a skirt uniform, and while women really would have the choice, men would be harassed and ostracized if they every even considered choosing a skirt.

[kyril]

More or less, yes.
Practically speaking, of course, a single uniform would lead to the complete and total disappearance of skirts from uniforms. Probably what would happen is that employees would be given the "choice" between a pants uniform and a skirt uniform, and while women really would have the choice, men would be harassed and ostracized if they every even considered choosing a skirt.

Yes, and that's unfortunate. In some cases it may be grounds for sexual harassment complaints, but that's a separate issue. The main point is that we (outside the U.S. military) don't generally implement discriminatory rules to enshrine the personal preferences of racists or homophobes. If we did, public pools would still be segregated and gay people wouldn't be allowed on sports teams. But we don't restrict the equal rights of members of other suspect classes because other people might treat them badly. So why do we show such deference to sexists?

[Kay]

There are many heavily gender-binary cultures which are accustomed to unisex or "family" bathrooms; the key is that they usually have full-privacy, floor-to-ceiling stalls. My French transfer student friend has complained to me how exposed our bathroom stalls make us feel - people can see her feet, and could conceivably peek over or under the stall! These things truly are social conventions.

.
That is a very good suggestion.  I've never seen a bathroom with floor-to-ceiling stalls, so I wasn't even aware that they existed.  It definitely makes unisex or family bathrooms a far more realistic option to consider.

[Dana Lane]

Sorry, Laura, but I'm not a "true transgender person," and neither are you.
You just don't get to put trans people on a hierarchy, with transsexuals who've completed every surgery known to science at the top, and crossdressers at the bottom. That's not logical, and not okay. There's nothing "truer" about my gender variance, or yours, than the gender variance of crossdressers.

This is like how haredi (ultra-Orthodox) Jewish theology refuses to acknowledge non-Orthodox Jews as "real Jews;" it's actually considered against halacha (religious law) for them to pray in a Conservative or Reform synagogue. This, of course, bars my lubavitcher relatives from attending shul with us on holidays, and they didn't come to my bar mitzvah (adulthood ceremony) for this reason. Of course, it's fine for us to attend their services. Sigh.

So no, there's no such thing as "true ->-bleeped-<-."

cosign.

And in addition the current definition of transgender is:

From Websters
a person appearing or attempting to be a member of the opposite sex, as a transsexual or habitual cross-dresser.

I think what you are trying to say is "True Transsexual"? As in the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care? Please correct me if I am wrong.

" The true transsexual was thought to be a person with a characteristic path of atypical gender identity development that predicted an improved life from a treatment sequence that culminated in genital surgery. They were thought to have: 1) cross-gender identifications that were consistently expressed behaviorally in childhood, adolescence, and adulthood; 2) minimal or no sexual arousal to cross-dressing; and no heterosexual interest (relative to their anatomic sex). "

Okay if that is the case then I am not a True Transsexual since I have not had surgery and did not know what was wrong with me for most of my life.

Most of us here are likely transgender whether it be transsexuals (pre/post/no op), androgynous, cross-dressers and others (sorry if I missed someone). There is a HUGE difference between a cross dresser and a transsexual. I think most people realize that. But I think we should all have rights to express ourselves in a way we need to to be happy. This right should be protected.

Laura, I remember some heated discussions about politics where you said something to the effect that it will take time for Republicans to accept us and you were okay with that. Why not now? The public needs to learn how to accept this for everyone.
Post Merge: May 16, 2010, 05:10:25 PM

I liked the idea of a bathroom for any employees who feel uncomfortable sharing with the trans person.

I live in Philadelphia and there is actually a Philadelphia law that deals with this. If someone is uncomfortable using the restroom that a transgender person uses then they have two choices. Find another restroom or schedule time to use the restroom where they can be totally alone to use it. Nobody else can enter while they are in there.

[Pippa]

I never quite got the 'their using the wrong bathroom' argument.   What do they think we are going to do in there?   Or see for that matter?

I also wouldn't fit into the quoted definition of transexual, so it isn't true for all of us.   We are individuals following a path that has many twists and turns.   What sets us apart is the ultimate goal, not the beginning.

[Pippa]

It just shows you what a stupid bigoted world we live in.

[PanoramaIsland]

They think that trans women in the female bathrooms will:
- rape cis women
- expose themselves to cis women
- make cis women feel threatened

And will also allow cis men to dress as women in order to enter the female bathrooms and rape cis women.

Radical feminists also believe that the female bathrooms are a woman only safe space and that trans women are men who are trying to appropriate that safe space for their own ends.
(If 'my own ends' entails making wee, then washing my hands and leaving, then colour me guilty!)

And, as with many issues, radical feminists are wrong. They spearheaded the prudish and censorious anti-pornography movement on the left, they've harbored anti-trans sentiment for a long time, and they cling to binary notions of gender even while some of them argue that gender is socially constructed.

I'm a proud feminist, but I'm often dismayed at the behavior of various major groups in the feminist movement. There are the folks who want us to spend all our time dissecting speech and trying to reconfigure it to be more polite and PC, almost to the exclusion of going out there and actually working for gender equality and freedom. There are the radical essentialists, who want to divide everyone into either pink or blue, and the folks who are convinced that feminism means war against men.
What happened to simply working to create and sustain gender equality? Why all the sectarianism and ridiculousness?

[glendagladwitch]

do you suppose the fellow is likely to show up at work looking like that? Even if he could?

He is at work in those photos.  Ren fest staff.  I saw him in person last year.

[kyril]

And, as with many issues, radical feminists are wrong. They spearheaded the prudish and censorious anti-pornography movement on the left, they've harbored anti-trans sentiment for a long time, and they cling to binary notions of gender even while some of them argue that gender is socially constructed.

I'm a proud feminist, but I'm often dismayed at the behavior of various major groups in the feminist movement. There are the folks who want us to spend all our time dissecting speech and trying to reconfigure it to be more polite and PC, almost to the exclusion of going out there and actually working for gender equality and freedom. There are the radical essentialists, who want to divide everyone into either pink or blue, and the folks who are convinced that feminism means war against men.
What happened to simply working to create and sustain gender equality? Why all the sectarianism and ridiculousness?

Some people who call themselves feminists aren't feminists at all. There's a large, loud subset that is:
- anti-sex, and denies the possibility of female heterosexual consent or pleasure
- pro-sex-segregation
- biological-essentialist
- tied to the dominant paradigms of femininity and masculinity (cooperation vs. aggression, monogamy vs. polygamy, etc etc)
- actively undermining acceptance of women in male-dominated workplaces by demanding that they (and the rest of the public sphere) be completely expunged of male sexuality
- anti-trans, and anti-any form of gender expression that subverts biological-essentialist views of male masculinity

That's not feminist. In fact, it's a fundamentally sexist world view.

[kyril]

Or, to put it simply; replacing patriarchy with matriarchy.

With the caveats that:

(1) genuine matriarchy has never been shown to exist - cultures that have been described as matriarchal are actually largely egalitarian (this is part of the patriarchal bias that causes us to view situations that are actually equally balanced as being dominated by women)

and (2) the particular "matriarchal" ideal espoused by this set of self-described feminists draws very heavily from Western patriarchy, particularly in the centrality of control of sexuality and the segregation of women, and is probably better characterized as an alternate implementation of patriarchy.

[Tammy Hope]

He is at work in those photos.  Ren fest staff.  I saw him in person last year.

what the heck is "ren fest"?

Ah....Google is my friend...Renaissance Festival

That's hardly the sort of job where gender specific dress codes are in play....is it even a real full time job? As opposed to a recreational activity?

In any case - the provisions of ENDA are hardly designed to address the staff of ren fest any more than they are the staff of a comic con.

I think what you are trying to say is "True Transsexual"? As in the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Not remotely what I was saying.

I've explained it repeatedly in later posts. Hopefully something in this thread cleared up your confusion about my intent.

[PanoramaIsland]

Ren Faire is a full-time job for some people - traveling craftspeople and performers, mainly - and a hobby for others.