Taking advantage of benefits for females/women

[Silver]

What's there to get? You made a contradictory statement. I'm not attacking your opinion or your stance, but what you're saying isn't helping your argument.

You said you'd rather be seen as a man in a dress than as a man, but that's still being seen as a man. If someone sees you as a guy no matter what you wear, they're going to treat you as one. The dress is irrelevant because they see you as a guy, period.

It's not that you are a guy, because obviously you aren't, but the statement doesn't make any sense because you wouldn't be treated differently. If you pass and/or if you are seen as someone with a female gender identity, then you aren't seen as some man in a dress and therefore people treat you as a woman socially.

If you have a female gender identity, then you are not some man in a dress. The problem is, not everyone passes and doesn't realize that.

A good part of male privilege is being respected as a male by other males. Men in dresses are not respected, but don't get the benefits women do either. Rejected by both groups.

[Wendy1974]

Lachlann I hate to tell you this but if people think you are a man in a dress they don't extend you male privilige and they do treat you differently then they treat a "man". I'm done with this conversation.

[Lachlann]

A good part of male privilege is being respected as a male by other males. Men in dresses are not respected, but don't get the benefits women do either. Rejected by both groups.

You're absolutely correct, that does happen.
Post Merge: June 02, 2010, 01:07:40 PM

Lachlann I hate to tell you this but if people think you are a man in a dress they don't extend you male privilige and they do treat you differently then they treat a "man". I'm done with this conversation.

Then why not explain that instead? I don't get why you're acting this why, I haven't been rude at all to you.

[LordKAT]

I figure if I offer to pay and they refuse, why argue. I know a few men who have done the same. As to men getting free drinks, one bar I go to has the policy that if you are in a skirt, your first and fifth drink is free. I see men is kilts and skirts there just for the drinks. It was intended to bring in a higher class crowd, it just didn't work that way. I never wore a skirt to get a drink there, never will.

[Nygeel]

Rowan, I agree. If I passed half of the time or a quarter of the time then I would most likely refuse.

Hmm...I wonder what this topic would be if I identified as gender queer...

[Arch]

Lol! Thats exactly what someone without integrity would say! Rofl

To be serious though:

Integrity isn't subjective. Integrity is a concept of consistency of actions, values, methods, measures, principles, expectations and outcomes. The only thing that is subjective about Integrity is the values, principles and expectations involved. Think about that the next time you say "I'm a man" and the next time it would be easier or more beneficial to let people think you are a woman.

I guess this means you are consistent about not documenting your sources.

Seriously, I see where you're coming from, and if (pre-T) I had been the one being offered the drink, I don't think I would have taken it. But I think it's pretty dogmatic to say/imply that people have no integrity if they say they identify as men but sometimes take advantage of benefits extended only to women. It really depends on where you draw the line and how you define yourself and your goals. A guy might figure, "You assume that I have female anatomy, and I do. I identify as male, but I'll take the drink." He might think, "I've had a long day, and I don't want to argue with these people." He might figure, "I'm in the gray area right now; I'll keep the eight bucks and put it into my surgery fund."

People like us fall into that gray area all the time. For example, I avail myself of "benefits for females/women" on a regular basis because I am still female on my health insurance and still have female parts. Last year, I used my insurance to cover a pre-op mammogram even though I was on T and living full-time (hadn't changed any documents yet, though). Automatic biannual mammograms are a benefit for women only, and I took advantage of it.

I am now legally male outside of my health insurance, but I still use my insurance to cover checkups for "female stuff." Pap smears are a benefit extended only to "women." I'm hoping that I can keep the insurance, and stay female on it, until I can get a hysto covered. I'm not fully happy with the state of affairs, but I'm in the gray zone now. I'm willing to work with what I've got.

Definitions and labels can quickly become a trap. If we become too dogmatic about applying them and using them to limit people, we miss out on some of the wonders of life. Like "the pregnant man." (Okay, wait, I didn't mean that...)

[KaleisGood4U]

Anygaaaay my friends had thought that if I want to be seen as a man then I have to give up the advantages given to women/females. That I'm undo-ing progress for myself and trans folks in general...

Just wanted to make sure that I'm not the only one thinking the way I do.

I didn't ask to be born with a 23 inch waist and an ass as wide as Texas packing a vagina along with the ride.  Ergo, until I can pass, I'll just accept whatever title I am given, pre-T.  You didn't murder someone's child or something.  You just didn't make an ass of yourself, "Well, I have a medical condition, so you insulted me..."  You did the right thing in not being a goddamn baby about being a transperson.  You don't pass right now.  That's fine, and you know there are benefits and deficits of that.  You're not going to be the first guy they ask to help do heavy lifting, but you may get a free drink.  It balances out in the end.

[Jeatyn]

I haven't paid for my own drinks in a bar for....well...ever. I'm poor, I want to get drunk, so I doll myself up a bit and take advantage of people who are willing to buy me drinks. I won't have my femininity forever, may as well flaunt it while I've got it.

I've only been to a bar presenting male once, I spent a fortune and ended up in a fight because someone was feeling up the girl I was with.

I'll take dressing in drag for the free drinks any day over fights and an empty wallet

And hell, when I do completely pass, I'll hope there are some nice boys in the gay bars who are still willing to buy me drinks, because I'm cheap like that

[BoyDani]

I'm not even going to bother trying to explain to you what is wrong with that statement. Obviously neither you nor Lachlann are capable of getting it even if I tried. Enjoy having your cake and eating it too... or at least trying to.

I'm not sure about this whole 'men in dresses will get same benefits as men' business. Personally, the concept of being a semi-passing MtF is absolutely horrifying to me. The homo and transphobia in this world causes this. Furthermore, many men who are even remotely effeminate are treated horribly. This same environment you says for them isn't really there socially, though it maybe there in other cases. For me, that would make all the difference in the world. If I was a semi-passing MtF in my town and not a semi-passing FtM, like I am, I'd be afraid for my life.