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Gay group criticizes transgender women for going topless on Delaware beach

Started by Shana A, June 04, 2010, 02:14:54 PM

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Dana Lane

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Former TS Separatist who feels deep regret
http://www.transadvocate.com/category/dana-taylor
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Arch

Interesting comments on that story, Dana. The ones that bother me say that since the people in question identify as women, they should follow all laws as they apply to women.

Yeah, use that logic with regard to bathrooms. If you are an MTF in the women's restroom, someone calls you on it, and your picture ID labels you as male, you are in shaving cream up to your neck.

Until very recently, no laws gave a hang how people identified. For the most part, the law still doesn't care. Legally speaking, what mattered most (and still matters) was the legal definition and the documentation belonging to the people in question. If these were MTFs with male identification cards, they apparently did nothing illegal.

I don't really care why they went topless or why they initially refused to cover up. Yeah, maybe it's tacky. Maybe it's all for attention. Maybe they weren't making an ideological statement. But for me, the point is that existing laws not only do not account for people like us, they are often uniformly used against us. So people who are legally one sex who identify as another--or even people who have had their documents changed--are usually subjected to the MOST restrictive interpretation of the law, not the one that is most appropriate to their situation. Case in point, Littleton v Prange.

It's only so useful to protest, "You can't have it both ways! If you identify as a woman, then follow all the laws for women!" You know what? Number one, this particular law is a ridiculous and antiquated double standard. Number two, the laws regarding the sexes are all over the place, and there's no set guideline. The law does not uniformly treat trans women as women (especially when such people are arrested), yet people want trans women to voluntarily kowtow to all laws pertaining to women. Yet another double standard.

Trans people don't fit the established categories. Incidents like these will continue to happen until the law starts to catch up with us.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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Julie Marie

You make some good points Arch.  And if we could store incidents like these and make them available and easily accessible to all members and advocates of our community, we might be able to readily use them to make the mainstream see they are in fact "all over the place" on issues like this.

But the reality is, when an incident occurs, people react to that in any way that they feel is right.  They see breasts and the person becomes a woman.  They see an "M" on their driver's license and the person becomes a man, regardless how that person presents.  And then they decide how the situation should be handled.  Typically that decision is highly influenced by their comfort levels. 

Can we say "knee jerk reaction"?

Of course, if it might be a story that sells, the media jumps right in and tells it.  In this case, someone allegedly in the know says the two are FTMs.  The media stories say MTFs.  If they were FTMs and they had mastectomies, the boob issue shouldn't be an issue regardless of what's between their legs.  If they were MTFs and had breasts they should be held to the same expectations (and laws) as any other woman and they should have known that.  If they were somewhere in between, then.....

And I guess that's where many people get confused as to how to react to this situation.  Maybe relaxing the puritan laws a bit is a much easier solution.
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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Arch

Quote from: Julie Marie on June 07, 2010, 05:24:42 AM
If they were FTMs and they had mastectomies, the boob issue shouldn't be an issue regardless of what's between their legs.  If they were MTFs and had breasts they should be held to the same expectations (and laws) as any other woman and they should have known that.  If they were somewhere in between, then.....

Good observations.

The outliers are the most interesting people to test the law. What if they're FTMs who HAVEN'T had top surgery? Should they still be required to obey the laws pertaining to the gender they claim, regardless of what's on their IDs? All of a sudden, the logic of some people's argument becomes a little problematic. And what about genderqueers and androgynes? I'm sure some would say to go with the most restrictive law if a person identifies with both legal sexes. Then, on the other hand, what about people who identify as non-gendered, as some androgynes do? Guess they don't have to obey any sex-specific laws at all.

Maybe I should be writing a comment on the story instead of just here...

"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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tekla

Does this follow the first rule of California nude (clothing optional) places that they tend to be full of the last people you really want to see naked?
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Constance

Quote from: tekla on June 07, 2010, 03:27:54 PM
Does this follow the first rule of California nude (clothing optional) places that they tend to be full of the last people you really want to see naked?
Sorry about that, Kat. I'll stay home next time.  :D

cynthialee

Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on June 07, 2010, 04:34:10 PM
From the perspective of a protest, this would be great; i.e. if these trans women were denied their gender marker change in court and baring their breasts was, in essence, them waving their middle finger at the legal system, "You won't legally acknowledge me as a woman, so I'm not bound by the laws which apply to women and can hang my tits out where ever I like."
A titty protest! I'm in.
lol
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'
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