Revisited: The Washroom Debate

[Shana A]

Revisited: The Washroom Debate

By JillPage Sun, Jun 13 2010

http://communities.canada.com/montrealgazette/blogs/patentpending/archive/2010/06/13/revisited-the-washroom-debate.aspx 🔗

A reader's comments tonight have got me thinking about The Washroom Debate. He expressed concern about MtFs -- who still have male organs and whom he referred to as "men" -- changing in the women's washroom. He is not alone in expressing concern about MtF (pre-op male-to-female) people using women's washrooms, and presumably, FtM (pre-op female-to-male) people using men's washrooms. It seems to be the biggest concern for people who object to transgender rights bills, especially in the U.S., where the issue is often trumpeted by anti-trans politicians.

Of course, I understand the transgender point of view on this: An MtF presents as a woman and should use the women's washroom. Using the men's washroom could be dangerous for the MtF.

[Julie Marie]

Okay, the bathroom debate is unresolved, and probably will be in the minds of the general public for a very long time. 

The author is attempting to find a "keep everyone happy" scenario, but it doesn't exist.  Public bathrooms, even as they are today, do not meet the desires of everyone.  We all make concessions.

In years gone by, I HATED the idea that urinals should be side by side with each other. When the bathroom was crowded I found it primitive that grown men should be required to stand, elbows almost touching, while they relieve themselves.  I'm sure cost factored highly into that setup!  But if you had to go, you did what you had to or else.

The fear mongering about MTFs in women's bathrooms relies on the image of a large, husky man with a beard shadow and deep voice, dressed as a woman, scaring the bejeezus  out of "real women".  The reality is very different.

The author suggests single use, gender neutral bathrooms for everyone.  Well, that just isn't going to happen.  It's a lot easier and cheaper to just say, "You can't come in here. Go away!"

Pre-op, I was in countless women's public bathrooms and never had a problem. At times I even talked to some of the other women there. Post-op, I don't even give it a thought and apparently neither does anyone else.  So, from my perspective, I don't see what the problem is.  But I will say this, I've put in a lot of work to be able to pass, and that includes training my old Barry White voice to pass as female.  It isn't easy!  But that's what I had to do if I wanted to be accepted into the woman's world.

When I went to Be-All last year to meet a friend, I used the bathroom.  Sitting in the stall I heard a male voice walk in, enter the stall next to me and pee, obviously standing up.  😮 Now if this is where the problems originate, I can understand what all the fuss is about.  To me, that person was a man, regardless of how they are dressed.  If it walks like a duck, acts like a duck and sounds like a duck...

So maybe the problem is the TGs the anti-trans people are focusing on are the ones who don't respect the fact women don't want a man, or anyone acting or sounding like one, to be in the same bathroom they are in.  I understand that.  I don't like it either.

I have always made every effort to present, the best I can, as any other woman out there.  It was the least I could do, both for the women with whom I might share a bathroom and for the TGs who want to end the negative stigma that burdens us all.  It's a responsibility we all have to ourselves, to one another, to our community and to the women we want to accept us.

[transheretic]

Ok Julie's whole comment was so rational, so right on the money I am betting with myself how long it will take before a complaint is lodged and it is erased.

I've never had a single problem using the ladies room either in more than 15 years of doing so.  Even when I was outted on the job, my history being debated with all my co-workers somehow it never occurred to anyone that I should be using any other rest room besides the ladies.....food for thought.

[Britney_413]

The bathroom issue is not just a trans issue but a gender issue, period. Look at three possible scenarios here:

1. An MTF pre-op/non-op uses the women's room and is so well passable that nobody notices or would even be capable of questioning anything.

2. An MTF post-op uses the women's room but is poorly passable. Despite having female genitals and being legally female, complaints arise.

3. A genetic woman who is extremely tall and has a variety of masculine features uses the women's room. People inadvertantly assume she is a "man in the women's room" and complaints arise.

For the companies or other establishments who decide to create a bathroom problem where there isn't one, they will be opening themselves up to a host of legal problems. Look at #3. Let an establishment kick out a genetic female falsely accused of being trans and they are virtually guaranteed a lawsuit. As with #2, it is essentially the same situation. As to #1, it is now a discrimination issue. Are establishments going to ID before patrons can use the restrooms or ask to see the patron's genitals before allowing entry? I don't think so. Besides, one trans person will get away with it while another trans person and even genetic female will be called into question.

Anyone here who has these issues would be encouraged to bring these points up to the management of the establishment, an attorney, and/or the media where applicable.

[Ayaname]

I think as long as you can look, sound, and behave as the gender you claim then there won't likely be a problem. It's understandable that people would want to keep some trans people out of the "wrong" rest rooms in some cases though. There are some trans people that I've known(most in my area sadly) that really have the wrong motives. I used to hang around a guy who claimed to be transgendered, however he was just a wolf in sheep's clothing. He obviously just thought it was hot to dress in women's clothes and would use it to hit on other trans girls and GGs alike. Both of us would use the women's bathroom at this one club we would go to, but we ended up getting kicked out because my "friend" was notorious for his lewd behavior and he didn't even make an effort to come off as female other than his clothes (which were horridly skanky). When the club manager found out he was really upset with the bouncers for kicking me out though. He was totally for kicking fetish-boy out but he saw kicking me out as a lawsuit waiting to happen. Most people do make the distinction and will be fair about it. Where it gets complicated is when you try to make laws about it. It's really something that needs to be left up to the judgement of whoever is in charge of the facility because there are no specific criteria that can say who is or isn't a "real" trans person.

[kyril]

Trans women were raised and socialised as men.
Therefore they are men, since you cannot erase that socialisation.

And their problem becomes evident in just the first few steps of their argument.

There are cultures that practise rigid gender segregation, where boys grow up truly separately from girls, raised largely by their fathers after the early years, and never exposed to the many "mysteries" of girlhood and womanhood. Ours is not one of them. Western children are essentially universally exposed to both male and female socialisation cues. Gender differentiation occurs through two processes: selective attention to the cues for the gender with which one identifies, and external reinforcement of gender performance in the gender to which one was assigned.

The latter process, in the case of MTFs, can have some significant effects - it can overwrite a girl's overt public gender expression almost entirely (it's less effective in modern FTMs because it's no longer considered acceptable to force gender-appropriate behaviour on girls, or even state explicitly what it is, outside certain conservative enclaves). But forced conformity does not equate to "male socialisation." Enforcing conformity through fear is not socialisation, it's just control. Only the worst sorts of extreme behaviourists think that learning under a reinforcement/punishment regime is the same as learning by modeling. Reinforcement/punishment yields far less durable results - they quickly degrade if the reinforcement regime is stopped or becomes ineffective, even temporarily.

Behaviour learned by modeling is quite durable in contrast. And there is fairly strong evidence that little trans kids selectively attend to and model the gender expression of the opposite gender to the one we were assigned. Hell, even little gay kids do it often enough to draw the attention of researchers. There's no evidence that this stops at any point - only that it may be overwritten by more consciously-learned behaviours backed with the threat of punishment for noncompliance.

[transheretic]

And their problem becomes evident in just the first few steps of their argument.

There are cultures that practise rigid gender segregation, where boys grow up truly separately from girls, raised largely by their fathers after the early years, and never exposed to the many "mysteries" of girlhood and womanhood. Ours is not one of them. Western children are essentially universally exposed to both male and female socialisation cues. Gender differentiation occurs through two processes: selective attention to the cues for the gender with which one identifies, and external reinforcement of gender performance in the gender to which one was assigned.

The latter process, in the case of MTFs, can have some significant effects - it can overwrite a girl's overt public gender expression almost entirely (it's less effective in modern FTMs because it's no longer considered acceptable to force gender-appropriate behaviour on girls, or even state explicitly what it is, outside certain conservative enclaves). But forced conformity does not equate to "male socialisation." Enforcing conformity through fear is not socialisation, it's just control. Only the worst sorts of extreme behaviourists think that learning under a reinforcement/punishment regime is the same as learning by modeling. Reinforcement/punishment yields far less durable results - they quickly degrade if the reinforcement regime is stopped or becomes ineffective, even temporarily.

Behaviour learned by modeling is quite durable in contrast. And there is fairly strong evidence that little trans kids selectively attend to and model the gender expression of the opposite gender to the one we were assigned. Hell, even little gay kids do it often enough to draw the attention of researchers. There's no evidence that this stops at any point - only that it may be overwritten by more consciously-learned behaviours backed with the threat of punishment for noncompliance.

I wish to thank you for putting into clearly stated words a concept I have struggled long to communicate to others.  Transsexuals do not have a boyhood or a girlhood (relative to assigned sex) but rather a "transhood".  Or as I some times have put it, "my mother handicapped me severely by somehow raising me to be a lady." 🙂

[Britney_413]

It is a slippery slope. People who complain about transwomen in the women's room use the classic example that "men are taking advantage of being able to abuse women" in that room. What about lesbians in the women's room? Gays in the men's room? I'm sure there are those uncomfortable with that as well. It wasn't long ago that whites weren't comfortable with blacks in the same restroom either. What people need to wake up and start realizing is that freedoms and rights do not guarantee comfort at all times or to never be offended.

I've even had people in restaurants complain because our table was discussing political beliefs or other opinionated topics. Obviously they disagreed with our opinions and found something we said "offensive." Again, people these days seem to demand comfort at all times. It does not, will not, and should not work that way. Both the men's and the women's rooms in virtually all places have stalls that have locks on them. If you aren't comfortable with the appearance (for whatever reason) of the other person in the room, you have the right to a) not look at them b) not talk to them and c) lock the door on your stall. Problem solved. People need to grow up.